Werewolf Blows, Vampire Glows

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

Before you get all rant induced this is my evaluation after playing both skill lines to mastery. This is not my opinion about the classes -- personally I prefer werewolf to vampire -- it's about how Zenimax has chosen to make those classes available. The short take away is this -- the Werewolf skill line sucks because it is hidden behind a slow to trigger ultimate. Oh, and its stamina based combat mechanics -- which I assume are getting fixed in 1.5. Oh by Hircine's hairy hindquarters I hope they get fixed.

So I played an Argonian NB with a stamina heavy build to align with Werewolf. Because she's an Argonian her poison resistance nicely offsets the Werewolf's weakness to poison. As a wolf she had little or no trouble taking on groups of poison spitting spiders. When she got to level 42 I got a bite from a guild mate (Thanks, Not Dead Yet!) and began her howling journey.

Leveling my wolf to mastery was a chore and a grind quite literally. Because it takes a ridiculous amount of Ultimate to trigger wolf, you spend like 60 seconds in wolf form, and since your skills for wolf only level while you're in wolf form I still haven't morphed some of the skills despite maxing out the class level. I was somewhere around VR5 in Cadwell's Silver before I maxed the class level and by then it was getting hard to play as werewolf. Yeah.. er, BOO!

My Dunmer Sorc was the natural choice for the Vampire. Again, the racial skill of fire resistance easily offsets the vampire's weakness to fire. And with Vampire skills being magicka based it seemed like a good fit. He also turned in the Rift getting a free bite from some generous follower of Lamae. Thanks, brother.

This is the most obvious difference to me. Where it took several VR levels and days of playing to max out as a Werewolf with my Vampire skill line I maxed out in a day and a half of play time shortly after hitting VR1. And not only did the class skill reach 10 but because I can put the Vampire skills in any slot on my bars it's super easy to level and morph them. This is a massive advantage for playing a Vampire over playing Werewolf.

Then lets get down the skills themselves -- the Vampire ultimate is an ULTIMATE. Holy Bat Swarms, Batman! Devouring swarms of bats that heal while dishing out thousands of points of damage?! What's not to love? Where the werewolf "ultimate" only earns that title because you're forced to slot it in your ultimate skill. And it lasts far too short a time and takes a horrendous amount of time to recharge. It is, possibly, the worst Ultimate skill in the game.

Vampires get a drain spell that not only stuns opponents while they're being drained it leaves them stunned afterwards. Crowd control and healing wrapped into one slot on your bar. Awesome! Werewolves get to leap into battle and do some damage. Umm, yeah. Hands (or maybe fangs) down -- vampires win again.

Vampires get the ability to avoid all damage for a few seconds and potentially use it to escape combat. Sure, there's a downside of being "immune" to healing spells but when you want to get your arse out of the battle this is pretty awesome. Wolfies can try casting Howl but it takes a few seconds, seems to be interruptible, and the monsters flee in random directions leaving you still in the middle when they regroup. Can you guess who has the edge here? Yup, Vampires. Again.

So while I'm hopeful werewolves won't suck fur balls after Update 5 I'm betting that -- because of their easy access to their skills and, in general, better abilities in a game world that favors magicka -- Vampires will still be the "dark" class of choice. And with the Justice System coming I failed to note that Vampires get a stealth advantage. Yeah, just another benefit for the Children of Lamae.

clayandaudrey_ESO · October 2014

Afraid that mentioning vampires glow in the title may make this thread derail quickly

Kalman · October 2014

You know there is this thing called PTS (Public Test Server) that you can actually log into and test upcoming patches on.

Oh and no I didn't take the time to read post. It was boring.

ers101284b14_ESO · October 2014

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/136571/pts-patch-notes-v1-5-1#latest

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Afraid that mentioning vampires glow in the title may make this thread derail quickly

Oh, like this is the first thread comparing the two classes? Pfft. My first title was "Werewolf Sucks, Vampire Rocks", because, quite frankly, that's how Zenimax has implemented the two classes. And as a fan of the wolf I'm severely disappointed. So I toned it down a notch and threw a pun about combustible vampires into the title. Still, curse you Zenimax for hobbling werewolves so much!

clayandaudrey_ESO · October 2014

No I was referring the complaining of the fighters guild skill that will make vampires visible. Not the thread in general.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Vampires get the ability to avoid all damage for a few seconds and potentially use it to escape combat. Sure, there's a downside of being "immune" to healing spells but when you want to get your arse out of the battle this is pretty awesome. Wolfies can try casting Howl but it takes a few seconds, seems to be interruptible, and the monsters flee in random directions leaving you still in the middle when they regroup. Can you guess who has the edge here? Yup, Vampires. Again.

Might be nitpicking but this line is incorrect. You get a max of 4 seconds with 75% damage mitigation with Mist Form.

But yea, Werewolf has never been on par with Vampire and is going to take some serious tweaking in order to be.

For starters they could make the passives also apply OUT of wolf-form.

Both skill lines need some balancing and polishing. The Bat Swarm ultimate needs to cost more. The Stage 4 cost reduction to vamp skills needs to NOT apply to the Ultimate. (This would solve all the dress+stick Sorc from Streaking through crowds in Cyrodiil, slamming their faces into the Impulse button and rocking 3-5 back to back Bat Swarms.)

Ultimate cost reduction should have a cap, across the board. For every class. Every race. Every skill.

The werewolf transform could use a little more love. Less cost, more time. Make it work like Sorcerer's Overload. IE: Attacking and using WW skills eats generated Ultimate. Once you run out of Ultimate, which is also on a reasonable timer to prevent perma-Wolf, no more wolf for you.

Also would be kinda cool if, until you get higher in the skill line, say up until level 6 in the skill line, your transforms would be involuntary.
Every time you get 100% of your Ultimate required to transform, BOOM you wolf out.

Might be annoying but would be pretty cool for immersion.

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

No I was referring the complaining of the fighters guild skill that will make vampires visible. Not the thread in general.

LOL, yeah, but I'm not a huge vampire fanboy so I didn't get that reference. Oh well. And won't WW have the same problem of standing out like a sore thumb? Or is it only Vampires that will get spotted by the new skill in the JS?

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Might be nitpicking but this line is incorrect. You get a max of 4 seconds with 75% damage mitigation with Mist Form.

I've only used Mistform a couple of times. Frankly, my Vampire is so overpowered compared to the monsters he's facing he doesn't need an escape route. So I must've been lucky and taken no damage while using it. Still, with its instant effect and relatively easy chaining potential it rocks compared to Howl.

dharbert · October 2014

I haven't tried WW yet, but I'm going to for completions sake. I had a guild member bite me last week (vamp) and it only took me two days to reach master and max out all vamp skills and morphs.

I must say, being a Nord DK Vamp is hilariously OP in PvE. I can solo public dungeons that I couldn't even attempt before. Drain, drain, devouring swarm, drain, drain, devouring swarm.....etc

It's kinda cheap, but it's fun.

Nihili · October 2014

What went through my mind while reading this thread:

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Afraid that mentioning vampires glow in the title may make this thread derail quickly

Slightly humorous relaxed assertion that can hardly offend

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Oh, like this is the first thread comparing the two classes? Pfft. My first title was "Werewolf Sucks, Vampire Rocks", because, quite frankly, that's how Zenimax has implemented the two classes. And as a fan of the wolf I'm severely disappointed. So I toned it down a notch and threw a pun about combustible vampires into the title. Still, curse you Zenimax for hobbling werewolves so much!

Whoa, a pretty sarcastic response to a very chilled comment, but hey at least it's still all very relaxed.

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

No I was referring the complaining of the fighters guild skill that will make vampires visible. Not the thread in general.

Ah, he explains himself in a calm manner. Now it makes sense right?

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

LOL, yeah, but I'm not a huge vampire fanboy so I didn't get that reference. Oh well. And won't WW have the same problem of standing out like a sore thumb? Or is it only Vampires that will get spotted by the new skill in the JS?

Whoa, again with a pretty unnecessary bash. Like, it's not like he's straight up insulting the other guy, but this is just so… unnecessary. Chill man.

dharbert · October 2014

With the upcoming update, Werewolves should also glow if you take the Fighter's Guild passive that makes undead/Daedric effects apply to Werewolves as well.

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

Nihili wrote: »

Whoa, again with a pretty unnecessary bash. Like, it's not like he's straight up insulting the other guy, but this is just so… unnecessary. Chill man.

Hmm, I didn't see those replies as bashing. More snark then anger was definitely implied. Though perhaps not delivered. Time to tune the snark cannon again.

Thechemicals · October 2014

Werewolf will always be second rate because all skills and the passives but 1 work only when you are in werewolf form and that is temporary and the new ideas for werewolf are going to make it more temporary. WW has so many other problems as well but its beating a dead horse now.

One idea would be to remove having to have the wolf ultimate slotted to gain ultimate. Pursuit and savage strength passive should also affect people in human form, not just ww.

Instead they went with healing claws....like a werewolf is some kind of priest. They are going to screw it up more just like heavy armor.

Cuyler · October 2014

dharbert wrote: »

With the upcoming update, Werewolves should also glow if you take the Fighter's Guild passive that makes undead/Daedric effects apply to Werewolves as well.

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

won't WW have the same problem of standing out like a sore thumb? Or is it only Vampires that will get spotted by the new skill in the JS?

From what I understand (I don't use the skill) is that the Expert Hunter/Evil Hunter Skill already exists and will make ww glow currently; however, it is bugged for vamps. 1.5 is fixing this bug.

As for your disparity, I agree with you ww needs a boost and I believe 1.5 is doing this as well. Check the PTS if your really concerned.

EDIT: love the title btw, made me chuckle

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

No I was referring the complaining of the fighters guild skill that will make vampires visible. Not the thread in general.

LOL, yeah, but I'm not a huge vampire fanboy so I didn't get that reference. Oh well. And won't WW have the same problem of standing out like a sore thumb? Or is it only Vampires that will get spotted by the new skill in the JS?

There's currently no talk of a "skill" coming out with the Justice System that will make Vampires stick out. Just that if they enter a city while Stage 3 or 4 they will be attack on sight, which will now require feeding before entering towns.

The skill that will make vampires glow is the Evil Hunter morph of Expert Hunter.

Now people will be faced with a choice.

Pick Evil Hunter which highlights already recognizable players.

Or

Choose Camouflaged Hunter which will allow you to deal extra damage with attacks from stealth.

If I were a vampire hunter I'd pick the latter.

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

There's currently no talk of a "skill" coming out with the Justice System that will make Vampires stick out. Just that if they enter a city while Stage 3 or 4 they will be attack on sight, which will now require feeding before entering towns.

Which, if you think about it, is bassackwards. A vampire at stage 4 might be a "good" (if such a thing is possible) Vampire who refuses to feed on humanity. It's the stage 1 vampires that are constantly sucking the blood of the living who should face the penalty.

But it's not that big of a deal. With stage 4 bonus being so huge I'm sure plenty of vampires will just give stuff to their mules to sell or hit up the many vendors who wander the roads of Tamriel.

Forestd16b14_ESO · October 2014

mlfw1012_46183_-_animated_did_not_read_lol_gif_image_macro_lol_didnt_read_meme_rainbow_dash_tldr.gif

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Image goes here

All that work when TL;DR exists? I'll never understand kids these days...

guybrushtb16_ESO · October 2014

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Afraid that mentioning vampires glow in the title may make this thread derail quickly

Oh, like this is the first thread comparing the two classes? Pfft. My first title was "Werewolf Sucks, Vampire Rocks", because, quite frankly, that's how Zenimax has implemented the two classes. And as a fan of the wolf I'm severely disappointed. So I toned it down a notch and threw a pun about combustible vampires into the title. Still, curse you Zenimax for hobbling werewolves so much!

They aren't classes. Neither are races. For some reason it annoys me when people call them that.

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

They aren't classes. Neither are races. For some reason it annoys me when people call them that.

Yeah, they're "skill lines", but that is the most soulless and boring name for them in any ES game ever. They grant a skill line and since it has an ultimate it's more like a class skill than a weapon skill. Maybe it's an armor skill? Nah, that doesn't seem right either. So I went with "class" because, well, because.

Nightreaver · October 2014

Ok, I'm really trying to understand what makes Vampires so OP compared to Werewolves and I'm just not seeing it.

Comparing them on PTS

Werewolf: Unable to become Werewolf at will, must expend Ultimate to turn. Gains Ultimate when taking damage while in human form.
Vampire: Unable to become Humanoid at will, permanent Health regen debuff lowering Health regen by as much as 75%. Increased damage mitigation when under 50% Health.

Werewolf: Receives 50% increased damage from Poison (The least prevalent form of damage in the game.)
Vampire: Receives 50% increased damage from Fire (the most prevalent form of damage in the game.)

Werewolf Ultimate: PBAOE fear, increased Stamina, increased Armor, increased Run speed, adds DOT to Light attacks and gains access to 5 Werewolf abilities. Lasts 30 seconds but has options to extend duration.
Vampire Ultimate: Bat swarm PBAOE damage + Health return. Lasts 5 seconds.

Vampire abilities: available full time
Drain: 3 second Channeled Stun + damage + HOT. Cannot be reapplied to same target.
Morph 1 - Also recover Ultimate
Morph 2 - adds increased Recovery at night.

Mist: 75% damage reduction. ZERO healing. Duration 4 seconds
Morph 1 - adds Increased movement speed
Morph 2 - adds PBAOE Poison damage

Werewolf abilities: only available while in Werewolf form
Pounce: Teleport to target + Damage + Stun
Morph 1 - PBAOE Damage + PBAOE Stun
Morph 2 - Increase Werewolf timer

Hircine Bounty: Instant cast Self Heal
Morph 1 -adds Increase weapon damage 10% for 17 Seconds
Morph 2 - adds Self HOT

Roar: PBAOE Fear, Disorient, Off-Balance
Morph 1 - adds Killing Feared enemies triggers PBAOE Disorient and Off Balance
Morph 2 - adds Increases weapon damage for allies for 10 seconds.

Howl: Damage + Knockdown
Morph 1 - adds increases Light/Heavy attack damage for allies for 15 seconds
Morph 2 - adds Increased damage to Feared targets

Infectious Claws: PBAOE Damage + DOT
Morph 1 - Target receives 40% reduction from Heals
Morph 2 - Player receives HOT

Passives
Vampire - Blood Ritual - Turn player into Vampire
Werewolf - Bloodmoon - Turn player into Werewolf

Vampire - Supernatural Recovery - Increase Magicka and Stamina regen 10%
Werewolf - Increase Stamina recovery from Heavy attacks 100%

Vampire - Savage Feeding - Reduces Health debuff + Self Heal (Can only feed while Hidden)
Werewolf - Devour - extends Werewolf timer + Self Heal

Vampire - Undeath - Increased damage mitigation when below 50%
Werewolf - Gain ultimate when taking damage in Human form

Vampire - Dark Stalker - Increase Stealth movement speed
Werewolf - Savage Strength - Increase Weapon Damage by 18%

Vampire - Unnatural Resistance - reduce Health Regen debuff
Call of the Pack - Increase duration of Werewolf form for allies.

Some Comments on your comparisons
Werewolf Poison vulnerability vs. Vampire Fire Vulnerability.
Or to put it another way…The least prevalent form of damage vs. the most prevalent form of damage.
Not even close Werewolf wins here. The gap becomes even wider when you add that in addition Vampires also get up to a 75% health regen debuff… Werewolf has no debuff.

Then lets get down the skills themselves -- the Vampire ultimate is an ULTIMATE. Holy Bat Swarms, Batman! Devouring swarms of bats that heal while dishing out thousands of points of damage?! What's not to love? What's not to love?

1) The healing just got nerfed.
2) It's a PBAOE. Step out of the circle and suddenly those thousands of points of damage and Healing become zero damage and zero healing.

Where the werewolf "ultimate" only earns that title because you're forced to slot it in your ultimate skill. And it lasts far too short a time and takes a horrendous amount of time to recharge. It is, possibly, the worst Ultimate skill in the game.

Vampire ultimate lasts 5 seconds. Werewolf lasts 30 seconds with options to extend the duration.

Vampires get a drain spell that not only stuns opponents while they're being drained it leaves them stunned afterwards. Crowd control and healing wrapped into one slot on your bar. Awesome! Werewolves get to leap into battle and do some damage. Umm, yeah. Hands (or maybe fangs) down -- vampires win again.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Vampire "Savage Feeding" compared to Werewolf "Devour" would be closer.

Vampire Savage Feeding:
Advantage - Self Heal + Target is stunned + reduce Health debuff
Disadvantage 1 - Only works on Humanoids
Disadvantage 2 - Player must be hidden so cannot be used if detected.
Disadvantage 3 - Cannot be used in combat
Disadvantage 4 - Cannot be used on same target more than once.
Disadvantage 5 - If player is hidden then odds are real good the player is at full health when feeding making any Heal from the ability nonexistent. Have yet to ever receive a single heal from this.

Werewolf Devour:
Advantage - Self Heal + extend Werewolf timer
Disadvantage 1 - Only works on corpses
Disadvantage 2 - Only works while in Werewolf form.

Vampires get the ability to avoid all damage for a few seconds and potentially use it to escape combat. Sure, there's a downside of being "immune" to healing spells but when you want to get your arse out of the battle this is pretty awesome. Wolfies can try casting Howl but it takes a few seconds, seems to be interruptible, and the monsters flee in random directions leaving you still in the middle when they regroup. Can you guess who has the edge here? Yup, Vampires. Again

First, as someone already pointed out, it's a 75% reduction to damage, not 100%. During this time they can not use another ability to do damage or be healed.
The Werewolf answer to this? Why Run?
Roar - PBAOE Fear + Disorientation + Off-Balance followed by your choice of
1) Claws - Instant cast damage to all enemies in front of you while either reducing their healing received by 40% or giving yourself a HOT.
2) Pounce - Instant cast damage + Stun to the targets you just knocked off balance
3) Howl - Instant cast Knockdown for 3 seconds + damage that can be increased by 30% to the targets you just Feared.
4) Hircine Bounty - Instant cast Self Heal which can be morphed to either add a self HOT or increase weapon damage.

I've only used Mistform a couple of times. Frankly, my Vampire is so overpowered compared to the monsters he's facing he doesn't need an escape route. So I must've been lucky and taken no damage while using it. Still, with its instant effect and relatively easy chaining potential it rocks compared to Howl.

Ok, so as a Vamp you don't need an escape route which tells me Mistform is useless. So what is left that makes Vampire so overpowering? Vamps only have 2 other abilities.
Bat swarm? It requires ultimate and only lasts 5 seconds so can hardly be spammed.
Drain? 3 second Channeled Stun + damage + HOT. Cannot be reapplied to same target while leaving you open to attack from other enemies while channeling. Does anyone actually keep this up on their bar?
That's it, those are the only abilities that Vamps have.

And with the Justice System coming I failed to note that Vampires get a stealth advantage. Yeah, just another benefit for the Children of Lamae.

Vampires that have not fed recently will be KOS to all guards. Werewolves would only be KOS if they transformed in front of the guards. And Vampire stealth doesn't make them any less likely to be detected, it just allows them to move quicker. Unless you’re a NB in which case it really doesn't do anything at all.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Both werewolves and vampires suck equal amounts of balls.

Do push ups.

dharbert · October 2014

Vamps in and of themselves are not OP. It's your class, skills, and set bonuses that, combined with vampirism, make you almost unstoppable.

The Devouring Swarm ultimate may only last a few seconds, but at stage 4 vampirism using Drain, I can use that ultimate about every 10 to 15 seconds.

The increased fire damage is easily mitigated by jewelry, as is the reduced health recovery.

I haven't even got into racial passives and skills such as GDB, which further add to the lethality/survivability of vampires.

It's quite fun. You can steamroll through just about anything.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Nightreaver wrote: »

Ok, I'm really trying to understand what makes Vampires so OP compared to Werewolves and I'm just not seeing it.

Comparing them on PTS

Werewolf: Unable to become Werewolf at will, must expend Ultimate to turn. Gains Ultimate when taking damage while in human form.
Vampire: Unable to become Humanoid at will, permanent Health regen debuff lowering Health regen by as much as 75%. Increased damage mitigation when under 50% Health.

Werewolf: Receives 50% increased damage from Poison (The least prevalent form of damage in the game.)
Vampire: Receives 50% increased damage from Fire (the most prevalent form of damage in the game.)

Werewolf Ultimate: PBAOE fear, increased Stamina, increased Armor, increased Run speed, adds DOT to Light attacks and gains access to 5 Werewolf abilities. Lasts 30 seconds but has options to extend duration.
Vampire Ultimate: Bat swarm PBAOE damage + Health return. Lasts 5 seconds.

Vampire abilities: available full time
Drain: 3 second Channeled Stun + damage + HOT. Cannot be reapplied to same target.
Morph 1 - Also recover Ultimate
Morph 2 - adds increased Recovery at night.

Mist: 75% damage reduction. ZERO healing. Duration 4 seconds
Morph 1 - adds Increased movement speed
Morph 2 - adds PBAOE Poison damage

Werewolf abilities: only available while in Werewolf form
Pounce: Damage + Stun
Morph 1 - PBAOE Damage + PBAOE Stun
Morph 2 - Increase Werewolf timer

Hircine Bounty: Instant cast Self Heal
Morph 1 -adds Increase weapon damage 10% for 17 Seconds
Morph 2 - adds Self HOT

Roar: PBAOE Fear, Disorient, Off-Balance
Morph 1 - adds Killing Feared enemies triggers PBAOE Disorient and Off Balance
Morph 2 - adds Increases weapon damage for allies for 10 seconds.

Howl: Damage + Knockdown
Morph 1 - adds increases Light/Heavy attack damage for allies for 15 seconds
Morph 2 - adds Increased damage to Feared targets

Infectious Claws: PBAOE Damage + DOT
Morph 1 - Target receives 40% reduction from Heals
Morph 2 - Player receives HOT

Passives
Vampire - Blood Ritual - Turn player into Vampire
Werewolf - Bloodmoon - Turn player into Werewolf

Vampire - Supernatural Recovery - Increase Magicka and Stamina regen 10%
Werewolf - Increase Stamina recovery from Heavy attacks 100%

Vampire - Savage Feeding - Reduces Health debuff + Self Heal (Can only feed while Hidden)
Werewolf - Devour - extends Werewolf timer + Self Heal

Vampire - Undeath - Increased damage mitigation when below 50%
Werewolf - Gain ultimate when taking damage in Human form

Vampire - Dark Stalker - Increase Stealth movement speed
Werewolf - Savage Strength - Increase Weapon Damage by 18%

Vampire - Unnatural Resistance - reduce Health Regen debuff
Call of the Pack - Increase duration of Werewolf form for allies.

Some Comments on your comparisons
Werewolf Poison vulnerability vs. Vampire Fire Vulnerability.
Or to put it another way…The least prevalent form of damage vs. the most prevalent form of damage.
Not even close Werewolf wins here. The gap becomes even wider when you add that in addition Vampires also get up to a 75% health regen debuff… Werewolf has no debuff.

Then lets get down the skills themselves -- the Vampire ultimate is an ULTIMATE. Holy Bat Swarms, Batman! Devouring swarms of bats that heal while dishing out thousands of points of damage?! What's not to love? What's not to love?

1) The healing just got nerfed.
2) It's a PBAOE. Step out of the circle and suddenly those thousands of points of damage and Healing become zero damage and zero healing.

Where the werewolf "ultimate" only earns that title because you're forced to slot it in your ultimate skill. And it lasts far too short a time and takes a horrendous amount of time to recharge. It is, possibly, the worst Ultimate skill in the game.

Vampire ultimate lasts 5 seconds. Werewolf lasts 30 seconds with options to extend the duration.

Vampires get a drain spell that not only stuns opponents while they're being drained it leaves them stunned afterwards. Crowd control and healing wrapped into one slot on your bar. Awesome! Werewolves get to leap into battle and do some damage. Umm, yeah. Hands (or maybe fangs) down -- vampires win again.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Vampire "Savage Feeding" compared to Werewolf "Devour" would be closer.

Vampire Savage Feeding:
Advantage - Self Heal + Target is stunned + reduce Health debuff
Disadvantage 1 - Only works on Humanoids
Disadvantage 2 - Player must be hidden so cannot be used if detected.
Disadvantage 3 - Cannot be used in combat
Disadvantage 4 - Cannot be used on same target more than once.
Disadvantage 5 - If player is hidden then odds are real good the player is at full health when feeding making any Heal from the ability nonexistent. Have yet to ever receive a single heal from this.

Werewolf Devour:
Advantage - Self Heal + extend Werewolf timer
Disadvantage 1 - Only works on corpses
Disadvantage 2 - Only works while in Werewolf form.

Vampires get the ability to avoid all damage for a few seconds and potentially use it to escape combat. Sure, there's a downside of being "immune" to healing spells but when you want to get your arse out of the battle this is pretty awesome. Wolfies can try casting Howl but it takes a few seconds, seems to be interruptible, and the monsters flee in random directions leaving you still in the middle when they regroup. Can you guess who has the edge here? Yup, Vampires. Again

First, as someone already pointed out, it's a 75% reduction to damage, not 100%. During this time they can not use another ability to do damage or be healed.
The Werewolf answer to this? Why Run?
Roar - PBAOE Fear + Disorientation + Off-Balance followed by your choice of
1) Claws - Instant cast damage to all enemies in front of you while either reducing their healing received by 40% or giving yourself a HOT.
2) Pounce - Instant cast damage + Stun to the targets you just knocked off balance
3) Howl - Instant cast Knockdown for 3 seconds + damage that can be increased by 30% to the targets you just Feared.
4) Hircine Bounty - Instant cast Self Heal which can be morphed to either add a self HOT or increase weapon damage.

I've only used Mistform a couple of times. Frankly, my Vampire is so overpowered compared to the monsters he's facing he doesn't need an escape route. So I must've been lucky and taken no damage while using it. Still, with its instant effect and relatively easy chaining potential it rocks compared to Howl.

Ok, so as a Vamp you don't need an escape route which tells me Mistform is useless. So what is left that makes Vampire so overpowering? Vamps only have 2 other abilities.
Bat swarm? It requires ultimate and only lasts 5 seconds so can hardly be spammed.
Drain? 3 second Channeled Stun + damage + HOT. Cannot be reapplied to same target while leaving you open to attack from other enemies while channeling. Does anyone actually keep this up on their bar?
That's it, those are the only abilities that Vamps have.

And with the Justice System coming I failed to note that Vampires get a stealth advantage. Yeah, just another benefit for the Children of Lamae.

Vampires that have not fed recently will be KOS to all guards. Werewolves would only be KOS if they transformed in front of the guards. And Vampire stealth doesn't make them any less likely to be detected, it just allows them to move quicker. Unless you’re a NB in which case it really doesn't do anything at all.

Trying? Its a no brainer.

A near spammable insane ultimate that when in stage 4 coupled with ult reduction class passives allows for costs as low as 100ish ult that moves with you and returns life while damaging everything in a huge radius. Some builds can sustain it indefinitely while being almost invincible to multiple enemy players.

Vamp passives work in human form.
Damage reduction passive at low health.

That's why in a nutshell.

^

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Trying? Its a no brainer.

A near spammable insane ultimate that when in stage 4 coupled with ult reduction class passives allows for costs as low as 100ish ult that moves with you and returns life while damaging everything in a huge radius. Some builds can sustain it indefinitely while being almost invincible to multiple enemy players.

Vamp passives work in human form.
Damage reduction passive at low health.

That's why in a nutshell.

I can basically use my bat swarm ultimate on every 2nd or 3rd group of monsters I'm fighting. I've actually had battles where I've popped it to start and built up enough ultimate in the fight to pop it again. That's ridiculous and, as you say, with the right build it's nearly invincible.

Nightreaver · October 2014

Awesome, so now that you both have established how fast and easy it is to build ultimate there should be no problem keeping Werewolf up almost full time right?

murmur · October 2014

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Leveling my wolf to mastery was a chore and a grind quite literally. Because it takes a ridiculous amount of Ultimate to trigger wolf, you spend like 60 seconds in wolf form, and since your skills for wolf only level while you're in wolf form I still haven't morphed some of the skills despite maxing out the class level. I was somewhere around VR5 in Cadwell's Silver before I maxed the class level and by then it was getting hard to play as werewolf. Yeah.. er, BOO!

You were doing it wrong. Here's how I did it. Slot WW ultimate when you're about to face Molag Bal, you're damage is buffed by insane amount to kill those deadras before Molag, so you can quickly kill them to get ultimate up. Then you kill then with couple light attacks in WW form to get your skill line up fast. Those mobs respawn also fast, so you just run that zone back and forth until you have skill line at max.

Another hot tip, you can slot your active WW abilities to your skill bar while you're in human form and go grind xp to level them up. Fast and easy.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

Ok, I'm really trying to understand what makes Vampires so OP compared to Werewolves and I'm just not seeing it.

Comparing them on PTS

Werewolf: Unable to become Werewolf at will, must expend Ultimate to turn. Gains Ultimate when taking damage while in human form.
Vampire: Unable to become Humanoid at will, permanent Health regen debuff lowering Health regen by as much as 75%. Increased damage mitigation when under 50% Health.

Werewolf: Receives 50% increased damage from Poison (The least prevalent form of damage in the game.)
Vampire: Receives 50% increased damage from Fire (the most prevalent form of damage in the game.)

Werewolf Ultimate: PBAOE fear, increased Stamina, increased Armor, increased Run speed, adds DOT to Light attacks and gains access to 5 Werewolf abilities. Lasts 30 seconds but has options to extend duration.
Vampire Ultimate: Bat swarm PBAOE damage + Health return. Lasts 5 seconds.

Vampire abilities: available full time
Drain: 3 second Channeled Stun + damage + HOT. Cannot be reapplied to same target.
Morph 1 - Also recover Ultimate
Morph 2 - adds increased Recovery at night.

Mist: 75% damage reduction. ZERO healing. Duration 4 seconds
Morph 1 - adds Increased movement speed
Morph 2 - adds PBAOE Poison damage

Werewolf abilities: only available while in Werewolf form
Pounce: Damage + Stun
Morph 1 - PBAOE Damage + PBAOE Stun
Morph 2 - Increase Werewolf timer

Hircine Bounty: Instant cast Self Heal
Morph 1 -adds Increase weapon damage 10% for 17 Seconds
Morph 2 - adds Self HOT

Roar: PBAOE Fear, Disorient, Off-Balance
Morph 1 - adds Killing Feared enemies triggers PBAOE Disorient and Off Balance
Morph 2 - adds Increases weapon damage for allies for 10 seconds.

Howl: Damage + Knockdown
Morph 1 - adds increases Light/Heavy attack damage for allies for 15 seconds
Morph 2 - adds Increased damage to Feared targets

Infectious Claws: PBAOE Damage + DOT
Morph 1 - Target receives 40% reduction from Heals
Morph 2 - Player receives HOT

Passives
Vampire - Blood Ritual - Turn player into Vampire
Werewolf - Bloodmoon - Turn player into Werewolf

Vampire - Supernatural Recovery - Increase Magicka and Stamina regen 10%
Werewolf - Increase Stamina recovery from Heavy attacks 100%

Vampire - Savage Feeding - Reduces Health debuff + Self Heal (Can only feed while Hidden)
Werewolf - Devour - extends Werewolf timer + Self Heal

Vampire - Undeath - Increased damage mitigation when below 50%
Werewolf - Gain ultimate when taking damage in Human form

Vampire - Dark Stalker - Increase Stealth movement speed
Werewolf - Savage Strength - Increase Weapon Damage by 18%

Vampire - Unnatural Resistance - reduce Health Regen debuff
Call of the Pack - Increase duration of Werewolf form for allies.

Some Comments on your comparisons
Werewolf Poison vulnerability vs. Vampire Fire Vulnerability.
Or to put it another way…The least prevalent form of damage vs. the most prevalent form of damage.
Not even close Werewolf wins here. The gap becomes even wider when you add that in addition Vampires also get up to a 75% health regen debuff… Werewolf has no debuff.

Then lets get down the skills themselves -- the Vampire ultimate is an ULTIMATE. Holy Bat Swarms, Batman! Devouring swarms of bats that heal while dishing out thousands of points of damage?! What's not to love? What's not to love?

1) The healing just got nerfed.
2) It's a PBAOE. Step out of the circle and suddenly those thousands of points of damage and Healing become zero damage and zero healing.

Where the werewolf "ultimate" only earns that title because you're forced to slot it in your ultimate skill. And it lasts far too short a time and takes a horrendous amount of time to recharge. It is, possibly, the worst Ultimate skill in the game.

Vampire ultimate lasts 5 seconds. Werewolf lasts 30 seconds with options to extend the duration.

Vampires get a drain spell that not only stuns opponents while they're being drained it leaves them stunned afterwards. Crowd control and healing wrapped into one slot on your bar. Awesome! Werewolves get to leap into battle and do some damage. Umm, yeah. Hands (or maybe fangs) down -- vampires win again.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Vampire "Savage Feeding" compared to Werewolf "Devour" would be closer.

Vampire Savage Feeding:
Advantage - Self Heal + Target is stunned + reduce Health debuff
Disadvantage 1 - Only works on Humanoids
Disadvantage 2 - Player must be hidden so cannot be used if detected.
Disadvantage 3 - Cannot be used in combat
Disadvantage 4 - Cannot be used on same target more than once.
Disadvantage 5 - If player is hidden then odds are real good the player is at full health when feeding making any Heal from the ability nonexistent. Have yet to ever receive a single heal from this.

Werewolf Devour:
Advantage - Self Heal + extend Werewolf timer
Disadvantage 1 - Only works on corpses
Disadvantage 2 - Only works while in Werewolf form.

Vampires get the ability to avoid all damage for a few seconds and potentially use it to escape combat. Sure, there's a downside of being "immune" to healing spells but when you want to get your arse out of the battle this is pretty awesome. Wolfies can try casting Howl but it takes a few seconds, seems to be interruptible, and the monsters flee in random directions leaving you still in the middle when they regroup. Can you guess who has the edge here? Yup, Vampires. Again

First, as someone already pointed out, it's a 75% reduction to damage, not 100%. During this time they can not use another ability to do damage or be healed.
The Werewolf answer to this? Why Run?
Roar - PBAOE Fear + Disorientation + Off-Balance followed by your choice of
1) Claws - Instant cast damage to all enemies in front of you while either reducing their healing received by 40% or giving yourself a HOT.
2) Pounce - Instant cast damage + Stun to the targets you just knocked off balance
3) Howl - Instant cast Knockdown for 3 seconds + damage that can be increased by 30% to the targets you just Feared.
4) Hircine Bounty - Instant cast Self Heal which can be morphed to either add a self HOT or increase weapon damage.

I've only used Mistform a couple of times. Frankly, my Vampire is so overpowered compared to the monsters he's facing he doesn't need an escape route. So I must've been lucky and taken no damage while using it. Still, with its instant effect and relatively easy chaining potential it rocks compared to Howl.

Ok, so as a Vamp you don't need an escape route which tells me Mistform is useless. So what is left that makes Vampire so overpowering? Vamps only have 2 other abilities.
Bat swarm? It requires ultimate and only lasts 5 seconds so can hardly be spammed.
Drain? 3 second Channeled Stun + damage + HOT. Cannot be reapplied to same target while leaving you open to attack from other enemies while channeling. Does anyone actually keep this up on their bar?
That's it, those are the only abilities that Vamps have.

And with the Justice System coming I failed to note that Vampires get a stealth advantage. Yeah, just another benefit for the Children of Lamae.

Vampires that have not fed recently will be KOS to all guards. Werewolves would only be KOS if they transformed in front of the guards. And Vampire stealth doesn't make them any less likely to be detected, it just allows them to move quicker. Unless you’re a NB in which case it really doesn't do anything at all.

Trying? Its a no brainer.

A near spammable insane ultimate that when in stage 4 coupled with ult reduction class passives allows for costs as low as 100ish ult that moves with you and returns life while damaging everything in a huge radius. Some builds can sustain it indefinitely while being almost invincible to multiple enemy players.

Vamp passives work in human form.
Damage reduction passive at low health.

That's why in a nutshell.

^

You say that like we the Vampire players designed it that way. If ZOS would think instead of "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH WAVE THE NERFBAT THE KIDS ARE CRYING" and make Bat Swarm cost more and be immune to Ultimate cost reduction, there wouldn't be NEARLY as much Vampire hate as there is now.

MornaBaine · October 2014

*sneaks into thread, looks around...waves cosmetics brush*

Seriously, aside from the people who admit they don't read not realizing that makes them look like extras from Idiocracy, there are some good points and counter points in here. I really appreciate Nightreaver's analysis and that they took the time to break it down like that. It pretty clearly shows how balanced the 2 skill lines are INTENDED to be. But, as most of us know, in actual play it's a whole different story. Vamps are pretty cheap to play and werewolves, because they get their goodies only while USING their Ultimate which takes far longer to build than the vamp Ultimate are really just not all that fun to play. The werewolf form itself really should not have been an Ult. It should have been a regular skill/spell that's easy to pop, with moderate advantages. And the Ult should only be available IN werewolf form and should have the wrecking potential of the batswarm. "Healing" ANYTHING on a werewolf is just lame. They should be ALL about the devastating damage. The self heal should totally be the savage feeding.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Nightreaver wrote: »

Awesome, so now that you both have established how fast and easy it is to build ultimate there should be no problem keeping Werewolf up almost full time right?

Werewolves don't keep ultimate gained in werewolf form. If this was changed it would even the playing field.

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

Ok, I'm really trying to understand what makes Vampires so OP compared to Werewolves and I'm just not seeing it.

Comparing them on PTS

Werewolf: Unable to become Werewolf at will, must expend Ultimate to turn. Gains Ultimate when taking damage while in human form.
Vampire: Unable to become Humanoid at will, permanent Health regen debuff lowering Health regen by as much as 75%. Increased damage mitigation when under 50% Health.

Werewolf: Receives 50% increased damage from Poison (The least prevalent form of damage in the game.)
Vampire: Receives 50% increased damage from Fire (the most prevalent form of damage in the game.)

Werewolf Ultimate: PBAOE fear, increased Stamina, increased Armor, increased Run speed, adds DOT to Light attacks and gains access to 5 Werewolf abilities. Lasts 30 seconds but has options to extend duration.
Vampire Ultimate: Bat swarm PBAOE damage + Health return. Lasts 5 seconds.

Vampire abilities: available full time
Drain: 3 second Channeled Stun + damage + HOT. Cannot be reapplied to same target.
Morph 1 - Also recover Ultimate
Morph 2 - adds increased Recovery at night.

Mist: 75% damage reduction. ZERO healing. Duration 4 seconds
Morph 1 - adds Increased movement speed
Morph 2 - adds PBAOE Poison damage

Werewolf abilities: only available while in Werewolf form
Pounce: Damage + Stun
Morph 1 - PBAOE Damage + PBAOE Stun
Morph 2 - Increase Werewolf timer

Hircine Bounty: Instant cast Self Heal
Morph 1 -adds Increase weapon damage 10% for 17 Seconds
Morph 2 - adds Self HOT

Roar: PBAOE Fear, Disorient, Off-Balance
Morph 1 - adds Killing Feared enemies triggers PBAOE Disorient and Off Balance
Morph 2 - adds Increases weapon damage for allies for 10 seconds.

Howl: Damage + Knockdown
Morph 1 - adds increases Light/Heavy attack damage for allies for 15 seconds
Morph 2 - adds Increased damage to Feared targets

Infectious Claws: PBAOE Damage + DOT
Morph 1 - Target receives 40% reduction from Heals
Morph 2 - Player receives HOT

Passives
Vampire - Blood Ritual - Turn player into Vampire
Werewolf - Bloodmoon - Turn player into Werewolf

Vampire - Supernatural Recovery - Increase Magicka and Stamina regen 10%
Werewolf - Increase Stamina recovery from Heavy attacks 100%

Vampire - Savage Feeding - Reduces Health debuff + Self Heal (Can only feed while Hidden)
Werewolf - Devour - extends Werewolf timer + Self Heal

Vampire - Undeath - Increased damage mitigation when below 50%
Werewolf - Gain ultimate when taking damage in Human form

Vampire - Dark Stalker - Increase Stealth movement speed
Werewolf - Savage Strength - Increase Weapon Damage by 18%

Vampire - Unnatural Resistance - reduce Health Regen debuff
Call of the Pack - Increase duration of Werewolf form for allies.

Some Comments on your comparisons
Werewolf Poison vulnerability vs. Vampire Fire Vulnerability.
Or to put it another way…The least prevalent form of damage vs. the most prevalent form of damage.
Not even close Werewolf wins here. The gap becomes even wider when you add that in addition Vampires also get up to a 75% health regen debuff… Werewolf has no debuff.

Then lets get down the skills themselves -- the Vampire ultimate is an ULTIMATE. Holy Bat Swarms, Batman! Devouring swarms of bats that heal while dishing out thousands of points of damage?! What's not to love? What's not to love?

1) The healing just got nerfed.
2) It's a PBAOE. Step out of the circle and suddenly those thousands of points of damage and Healing become zero damage and zero healing.

Where the werewolf "ultimate" only earns that title because you're forced to slot it in your ultimate skill. And it lasts far too short a time and takes a horrendous amount of time to recharge. It is, possibly, the worst Ultimate skill in the game.

Vampire ultimate lasts 5 seconds. Werewolf lasts 30 seconds with options to extend the duration.

Vampires get a drain spell that not only stuns opponents while they're being drained it leaves them stunned afterwards. Crowd control and healing wrapped into one slot on your bar. Awesome! Werewolves get to leap into battle and do some damage. Umm, yeah. Hands (or maybe fangs) down -- vampires win again.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Vampire "Savage Feeding" compared to Werewolf "Devour" would be closer.

Vampire Savage Feeding:
Advantage - Self Heal + Target is stunned + reduce Health debuff
Disadvantage 1 - Only works on Humanoids
Disadvantage 2 - Player must be hidden so cannot be used if detected.
Disadvantage 3 - Cannot be used in combat
Disadvantage 4 - Cannot be used on same target more than once.
Disadvantage 5 - If player is hidden then odds are real good the player is at full health when feeding making any Heal from the ability nonexistent. Have yet to ever receive a single heal from this.

Werewolf Devour:
Advantage - Self Heal + extend Werewolf timer
Disadvantage 1 - Only works on corpses
Disadvantage 2 - Only works while in Werewolf form.

Vampires get the ability to avoid all damage for a few seconds and potentially use it to escape combat. Sure, there's a downside of being "immune" to healing spells but when you want to get your arse out of the battle this is pretty awesome. Wolfies can try casting Howl but it takes a few seconds, seems to be interruptible, and the monsters flee in random directions leaving you still in the middle when they regroup. Can you guess who has the edge here? Yup, Vampires. Again

First, as someone already pointed out, it's a 75% reduction to damage, not 100%. During this time they can not use another ability to do damage or be healed.
The Werewolf answer to this? Why Run?
Roar - PBAOE Fear + Disorientation + Off-Balance followed by your choice of
1) Claws - Instant cast damage to all enemies in front of you while either reducing their healing received by 40% or giving yourself a HOT.
2) Pounce - Instant cast damage + Stun to the targets you just knocked off balance
3) Howl - Instant cast Knockdown for 3 seconds + damage that can be increased by 30% to the targets you just Feared.
4) Hircine Bounty - Instant cast Self Heal which can be morphed to either add a self HOT or increase weapon damage.

I've only used Mistform a couple of times. Frankly, my Vampire is so overpowered compared to the monsters he's facing he doesn't need an escape route. So I must've been lucky and taken no damage while using it. Still, with its instant effect and relatively easy chaining potential it rocks compared to Howl.

Ok, so as a Vamp you don't need an escape route which tells me Mistform is useless. So what is left that makes Vampire so overpowering? Vamps only have 2 other abilities.
Bat swarm? It requires ultimate and only lasts 5 seconds so can hardly be spammed.
Drain? 3 second Channeled Stun + damage + HOT. Cannot be reapplied to same target while leaving you open to attack from other enemies while channeling. Does anyone actually keep this up on their bar?
That's it, those are the only abilities that Vamps have.

And with the Justice System coming I failed to note that Vampires get a stealth advantage. Yeah, just another benefit for the Children of Lamae.

Vampires that have not fed recently will be KOS to all guards. Werewolves would only be KOS if they transformed in front of the guards. And Vampire stealth doesn't make them any less likely to be detected, it just allows them to move quicker. Unless you’re a NB in which case it really doesn't do anything at all.

Trying? Its a no brainer.

A near spammable insane ultimate that when in stage 4 coupled with ult reduction class passives allows for costs as low as 100ish ult that moves with you and returns life while damaging everything in a huge radius. Some builds can sustain it indefinitely while being almost invincible to multiple enemy players.

Vamp passives work in human form.
Damage reduction passive at low health.

That's why in a nutshell.

^

You say that like we the Vampire players designed it that way. If ZOS would think instead of "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH WAVE THE NERFBAT THE KIDS ARE CRYING" and make Bat Swarm cost more and be immune to Ultimate cost reduction, there wouldn't be NEARLY as much Vampire hate as there is now.

Yes they made vamps that way. No, its not balanced. Nerf is necessary.
Your point?