How would you like to hide your vampirism?

Potenza · October 2014

If anything, I have found this thread EXTREMELY entertaining and have to say thank you to all of the participants!

Varicite · October 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Oh Morna, how did I know that this thread would be yours. : P

Still fighting the fight, I see.

Are we still harping on that whole "Ravenwatch can hide, so I can too" argument? Do I have to debunk it all over again in this thread too?

And no doubt you will once again trot out your, "These NPCs are special snowflakes and you, player scum who pays a subscription, cannot be like them! You will never be as special! You MUST remain different and lesser! No matter how many Vet levels you have or how vast your magicka pool! Or how many months you've been subscribed! You are bloodfiend scum and you can NEVER rise above it! Because.... lore!"

LOL Yes, I'm picking on you but I hope you'll take it in the spirit intended because I don't dislike you and you're one of the few people who can actually have a rational debate on this subject.

But once again I'm going to have to say that "because lore" does not cut it as an argument AGAINST being able to hide vampirism. For a few reasons. We don't actually KNOW how Ravewatch does it but there's every bit of good reason to believe it's just as easily the result of him being a powerful MAGE and NOT the result of his special snowflake relationship with Molag Bal. EITHER could be true. Also, IF ZoS decides to implement a way for this to happen for players... it BECOMES lore. And it can CERTAINLY be done in a lore-friendly way that does not invalidate or circumvent previous lore. In fact, the more I've turned it over in my head since first beginning to consider this subject, the "because lore" argument actually ends up being one of the weakest ones.

And there is no more of a "because lore" reason NOT to change the whole shebang of how vampires look and how the Stages work than there is to never change how Templar skills work. Skills and classes will FOREVER be changing as the game grows. Should we not have Spellcrafting because since thus far all the spells your Mage has had access to are now part of "lore," ( and since adding new ones or taking away old ones would somehow invalidate that "lore,") it can't be done? Of COURSE it can be done! It WILL and SHOULD be done. Same for vamps. That is all.

Morna.

Of course you won't offend me. : )

But I personally find the lore, at least regarding Ravenwatch being a completely different strain than the player characters, to be rather cut and dry.

I just dislike the argument involving him as an example, because it is rather straightforward that he's a pureblood and player vamps are not, thus not having his range of vampiric powers.

Don't really have a problem w/ it being done in a lore-friendly way if they decide to go that route (though I personally may disagree w/ it from a purist standpoint, it really doesn't effect me much), but definitely do not want some sort of "suddenly, Noxiphilic vamps can now hide what they are" retcon to happen.

PS) Alva and Laelette were both from a strain of vampirism that could reportedly hide their appearance, as they were turned by Movarth Plinth (well, Laelette was turned by Alva, who was turned by Movarth), who was turned by the author of Immortal Blood, a Cyrodiliic vamp.

Purely speculation here, but it could stand to reason that since there was a healthy cell of Cyrodiliic vamps operating in Skyrim, at least some of the npc vamps that you come across in the game could also be of that bloodline.

BBSooner · October 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

I supremely dislike it when people have the notion that no matter what accommodations are made to make them happy, they are still adamant that it's perfectly fine for others to be unhappy. And no, what you are REALLY saying is, "You are either willing to accept ESO's version of vampires without ever daring to advocate for change like you would TO ANY OTHER SKILL LINE or you just can't be a vampire." And that, Sir, is unacceptable.

I suppose I just don't find cosmetic changes viable in relation to other changes to other skill lines. At that point you challenge the art style of the game, as opposed to advocating for balance. I would be just as against advocating changing the color of templar abilities to glow black instead of golden, or I'd be against changing the DK fire to have a white hue instead of red. Those are characteristics of what you are, and it shouldn't change artistically no matter how much argument is made otherwise. Likewise, our physical appearance change is a part of what we are, and shouldn't change artistically.

Besides, these aren't accommodations to make me happy. I simply accept what we are for the multiple mechanical and lore reasoning applied, and appreciate it's place as part of the ESO art direction.

Vizier · October 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

I supremely dislike it when people have the notion that no matter what accommodations are made to make them happy, they are still adamant that it's perfectly fine for others to be unhappy. And no, what you are REALLY saying is, "You are either willing to accept ESO's version of vampires without ever daring to advocate for change like you would TO ANY OTHER SKILL LINE or you just can't be a vampire." And that, Sir, is unacceptable.

LOL Morna. There's no Accomodations made to make folks "happy." There have been changes to make the game more balanced and fair from a competitive stand point. That is a far cry from making people "happy." This thing you want is fluff IMO and doesn't carry the weight of true balance issues. It's obviously very important to you but that doesn't necessarily put the issue on par with other's issues. There's lots of things people dislike about the game. They voice their opinions and suggestions, give their rational and move on. They are "content," for the most part, because it is not their game and they aren't letting the little things ruin their experience. The creative license ESO took with regard to vampires is really their prerogative. Hey it's your prerogative to speak your mind, but I have to tell you the argument doesn't appear rational anymore but rather emotional. Yelling at people, telling them they can't read or understand English, attributing actions and words to people then asserting them to be "unacceptable" or their disagreements "rude," when they are really not any more rude than your own responses...well it's just not very cool.

People aren't saying you can't have an opinion or advocate for what you want. That's what these forums are for. But time and time again the overwhelming majority of respondents indicate it's just not that important nor necessarily a "good" idea...shrug. Is what it is. Making a new poll or thread and saying the same thing from a different angle isn't going to change anything.

That said, I've long held that I believe the fast progression through vamp stages is prohibitive in a play balance sense and should be reworked. It will be more apparent when the justice system rolls out.

The way vampires look is not like anything related to any "skill" line. It's not how the vamps "look" that matters it's what "stage" they are in that matters and works with the game design. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't ESO determined the way vampires "look" in the early stages will let them function normally in towns and around people? ... shrug.

Once again, what "matters" here is the actual effect to game play and that would be the vamp stage progression time-frame.

Edited to cut out the broken "quote" chain. Don't know why that happened or even why it was there. I was only replying to pretty much one specific question from OP...my bad.

Gilvoth · October 2014

allow me to cast invisibility for prolonged periods so others will not see me and become offended and try kill me on site.

MornaBaine · October 2014

Varicite wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Oh Morna, how did I know that this thread would be yours. : P

Still fighting the fight, I see.

Are we still harping on that whole "Ravenwatch can hide, so I can too" argument? Do I have to debunk it all over again in this thread too?

And no doubt you will once again trot out your, "These NPCs are special snowflakes and you, player scum who pays a subscription, cannot be like them! You will never be as special! You MUST remain different and lesser! No matter how many Vet levels you have or how vast your magicka pool! Or how many months you've been subscribed! You are bloodfiend scum and you can NEVER rise above it! Because.... lore!"

LOL Yes, I'm picking on you but I hope you'll take it in the spirit intended because I don't dislike you and you're one of the few people who can actually have a rational debate on this subject.

But once again I'm going to have to say that "because lore" does not cut it as an argument AGAINST being able to hide vampirism. For a few reasons. We don't actually KNOW how Ravewatch does it but there's every bit of good reason to believe it's just as easily the result of him being a powerful MAGE and NOT the result of his special snowflake relationship with Molag Bal. EITHER could be true. Also, IF ZoS decides to implement a way for this to happen for players... it BECOMES lore. And it can CERTAINLY be done in a lore-friendly way that does not invalidate or circumvent previous lore. In fact, the more I've turned it over in my head since first beginning to consider this subject, the "because lore" argument actually ends up being one of the weakest ones.

And there is no more of a "because lore" reason NOT to change the whole shebang of how vampires look and how the Stages work than there is to never change how Templar skills work. Skills and classes will FOREVER be changing as the game grows. Should we not have Spellcrafting because since thus far all the spells your Mage has had access to are now part of "lore," ( and since adding new ones or taking away old ones would somehow invalidate that "lore,") it can't be done? Of COURSE it can be done! It WILL and SHOULD be done. Same for vamps. That is all.

Morna.

Of course you won't offend me. : )

But I personally find the lore, at least regarding Ravenwatch being a completely different strain than the player characters, to be rather cut and dry.

Is it? Volkihar aside (who considers himself a "pureblood" but frankly only got that way through his wife and daughter), there are no Sons of Coldharbor, only Daughters. Ravenwatch refers to Molag Bal as his "master" (which made me twitch, isn't Verandis supposed to be on OUR side and AGAINST Molag Bal?) which is what anyone who serves him would refer to him as. He NEVER comes out and says Ballsy made him a vampire. But we DO know he's a powerful mage. And he speaks of HIDING his condition...which would not be at all necessary if he innately possessed the ability to look normal as PART OF his vampiric condition. So the use of magic, probably illusion, is strongly implied. We can both argue this one both ways all day long because of the way everything is worded in the quest and because they pretty deliberately made Ravenwatch really MYSTERIOUS! LOL

Now my DREAM is that one day there will be an expansion or new endgame quests that center around Ravenwatch's return and result in many new vampire abilities. But I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Varicite wrote: »

I just dislike the argument involving him as an example, because it is rather straightforward that he's a pureblood and player vamps are not, thus not having his range of vampiric powers.

I have to disagree for the reasons above. When it comes to Ravenwatch...we just don't know.

Varicite wrote: »

Don't really have a problem w/ it being done in a lore-friendly way if they decide to go that route (though I personally may disagree w/ it from a purist standpoint, it really doesn't effect me much), but definitely do not want some sort of "suddenly, Noxiphilic vamps can now hide what they are" retcon to happen.

I would hate that scenario too, despite it giving me in essence what I want. I don't want a retcon to lore, I want an expansion to lore.

Varicite wrote: »

PS) Alva and Laelette were both from a strain of vampirism that could reportedly hide their appearance, as they were turned by Movarth Plinth (well, Laelette was turned by Alva, who was turned by Movarth), who was turned by the author of Immortal Blood, a Cyrodiliic vamp.

To clarify, I finally included those pictures NOT to say, "See these vampires look more "normal" than our vampires so our vampires should be able to look like this also," (even tho admittedly I DO kind of feel that way! lol) but to put the lie to all the people who kept falsely insisting that all previous ES vampires were hideous and glaringly obvious in their vampirism as well. It just ain't so.

Varicite wrote: »

Purely speculation here, but it could stand to reason that since there was a healthy cell of Cyrodiliic vamps operating in Skyrim, at least some of the npc vamps that you come across in the game could also be of that bloodline.

My dream expansion will be called The Blood of Cyrodil. ALL vampires will look like humans and be undetecable via skills or add-ons in Cyrodil and when they kill you, YOU rise as a mindless bloodfiend under their command! LOL Hey, a girl can dream, right?

But yes, I DO really hope they eventually expand the bloodlines beyond the one we can have now and give us some fun and really challenging gameplay to get access to those bloodlines.

MornaBaine · October 2014

Vizier wrote: »

LOL Morna. There's no Accomodations made to make folks "happy." There have been changes to make the game more balanced and fair from a competitive stand point. That is a far cry from making people "happy." This thing you want is fluff IMO and doesn't carry the weight of true balance issues.

THANK YOU for stating my point for me. Time and again people on these threads CLAIM that the way vampires look IS an issue of "balance"... as if making vampires hideous will cut down on the number of people who want to play them and that this device for reducing their numbers is an INTENDED effect deliberately created by ZoS. It's NOT. It's a simple cosmetics issue. Wanting more control over it and more flexibility with it is not some sort of request to make vamps OP....yet that is exactly how MANY people treat the request. This, despite the fact that how they look has absolutely zero effect on mechanics and gameplay. There is not a single stat involved. Yet even so, even KNOWING how trivial this is, HORDES of people flock to decry the very idea and are often FAR more "passionate" about denying the very possibility than I ever am while advocating for it. Have you NOTICED how many times I get told I have to "pay" for deciding to play a vampire? And that this "payment" is in the form of hating how my character looks? Seriously...I have to pay? I ALREADY pay! I pay a monthly sub like everyone else! LOL

*snip of meaningless "bad Morna!" diatribe*

Vizier wrote: »

People aren't saying you can't have an opinion or advocate for what you want. That's what these forums are for. But time and time again the overwhelming majority of respondents indicate it's just not that important nor necessarily a "good" idea...shrug. Is what it is. Making a new poll or thread and saying the same thing from a different angle isn't going to change anything.

And I've pointed out already that most of the people who agree with me won't approach these forums because of how horribly they get treated here. The fact that there's a large crowd of mean spirited bullies who enjoy shouting people down and have driven away a sizable portion of those who would otherwise be voicing their opinions here as well really does need to be taken into account. if anything, those folks have redoubled their efforts to be nasty to me because I WON'T be shouted down.

Vizier wrote: »

That said, I've long held that I believe the fast progression through vamp stages is prohibitive in a play balance sense and should be reworked. It will be more apparent when the justice system rolls out.

And I have advocated for that as I believe the same thing. Made a poll regarding that issue as well. It was summarily moved to the World Skills forum to die. The mean spirited part of ME is looking forward to the flood of QQ from all the PvPers who adamantly oppose ANYTHING that might cause them to have to leave Stage 4. Many have outright said ZoS "better not" make it so they have problems going in to towns in Stage 4 to sell and do their banking, etc. So while apparently the consequence of my choice to play a vampire is just fine, anything that introduces adverse consequences to their desire to play a Stage 4 vampire is unacceptable. So it'll be interesting to see which way ZoS goes on this and how fast they cave to this particular set of PvPers.

Vizier wrote: »

The way vampires look is not like anything related to any "skill" line. It's not how the vamps "look" that matters it's what "stage" they are in that matters and works with the game design. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't ESO determined the way vampires "look" in the early stages will let them function normally in towns and around people? ... shrug.

Once again, what "matters" here is the actual effect to game play and that would be the vamp stage progression time-frame.

Agreed that the stage progression IS going to become the big issue it should have been all along. Agreed also that how vamps look isn't tied to any game mechanic. Since it's NOT, it's really no big deal to change it.

phreatophile · October 2014

I still think the most elegant solution to issue of Vampire appearance is to make Stage 1 either totally or at least nearly mortal in appearance. By nearly mortal I mean pale but not pastey white, toned down eyes, and the makeup we chose at Character Creation.

Even if, as I hope, they were to make Stage1 last a reasonable amount of time(2x-4x current) there would still be 3 whole stages of ugliness for those that really want it, and maintaining your good looks would require frequent feeding.

It also makes sense even within the current system. The longer you go without feeding the less mortal you appear. If you've just eaten you appear to be a pale human/mer with red eyes.

My two cents. I'm OK with my Character's appearance in stage 1 now, but I wouldn't have any issue with a few minor tweaks, and it would make a lot of people pretty happy. The stage 4 all the time crowd wouldn't even notice.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Thrymbauld wrote: »

That isn't what this poll states at all. It says nothing about keeping later stages. It says nothing about a general dissatisfaction with a game mechanic(not appearance itself, mind, stage 1 length is a mechanic).

Everything full circle to where it is now. Now the raging debate isn't about hiding anything, per EVERY SINGLE POLL CHOICE, but rather a decided crusade to either change the models or change the mechanics.

I see nothing at all wrong with making the stages longer---if that'd been a poll offering, I might have actually been able to participate. Having to feed every half hour to maintain a particular stage is a decidedly clunky mechanic that presents itself far too quickly. It's a much better starting point.

As far as ugly models go......good luck, and I mean that seriously. There's nothing wrong with wanting them, but expecting a genuine retexture before a full expansion with graphic updates is a long shot at best.

Technically wouldn't be a retexture, if Stage 1 has you character looking like it did at creation. Just a change of code.

MornaBaine · October 2014

BTW the poll regarding the various Stages was moved here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/137209/do-the-vampire-stages-need-to-be-altered#latest

Vizier · October 2014

Have you ever considered that it's become personal for some and that your approach and attitude might be some cause for the pushback? You make it personal when you attack people that have as valid an idea/concept/reason as yours. The intractability causes contention. Seriously. My observation is that reasonable counter arguments are met with the same scorn your claim comes your way. Not attacking you. I respect your right to push for what you want. I'm just sayin...

Like I said. It's become an emotional thing and not necessarily a rational thing IMO. You said it yourself. You "HATE" the current standard for vamps in ESO. Making it personal is like putting blood in the water.

That others who support your position don't come to the forums might be a valid point but then there are others that don't support your position that also do not come to these forums for whatever reasons. In any case you can make that assertion but I think we really have to stick with using the community that does participate in the forums as our barometer.

MrGhosty · October 2014

I think that hiding your vampirism should take some effort, for example I have created a dark elf covered in full body paint. I've not gotten them vamped yet, but the theory is that it will obscure some of the white skin effect. Additionally many just use disguises like the skeleton to obscure their vampire nature but as most do that it, you can usually guess anyone wearing it is probably a vamp. With the fighters guild changes coming those wanting to hunt vampires will be able to do so easily by investing skill points which seems a fair trade off. I don't think it should ever be something that can be completely obscured as that is part of the trade off system. The vampires have far fewer trade offs for their uptake in ability than a werewolf does.

Vizier · October 2014

Sorry to double post but I'm going to quote from one of your other threads in response to the balance issue-

Vizier wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

I keep seeing people say that about vamps "needing" to be detectable in PvP but my question is... WHY? Why do they need to be MORE detecable than any other foe on the field? My own feeling is that "Get the healer!" is still Job One!

Because they are more powerful than your average bear. See it's like this...

You know how (maybe you don't so I'll explain..no sarcasm here) a guy, man male human has female radar. They just "know" there is a woman right there. That movement in the corner of their eye..woman. If it's not a woman they don't even bat an eye. If it is, they take note and look if they are your average horn dog guy. Trust me...they all look. Some more obvious or subtle then others but they all take note. Now what is it that makes guys "know?" We know. We pick up on the nuance of movement, gate, speed, bounce then sound and of course smell.

All that said in a video game those types of nuances a vampire hunter or survivor might pick up on are not present. All characters move the same. They have the same builds, same run, same walk same jump, same sneak, same attacks, same speed same sounds and no smell. The vampire class is more powerful overall (as evidenced by why so many choose to be one. I'm confident in my assertion that if Vamp class was weak there would be FAR fewer of them) and since it is more powerful those nuances I spoke of that vampire hunters and others intent on surviving day to day would notice are simulated through the exaggeration of physical characteristics and thus evening the playing field.

That is why it is important. Balance Grasshoppa.

The day may come as suggested in 1.5 where vamps will be readily apparent through passive abilities. If so then I would say appearance of vampires in general wouldn't matter other than as a creative prerogative of TES and ZoS.

MornaBaine · October 2014

Vizier wrote: »

Sorry to double post but I'm going to quote from one of your other threads in response to the balance issue-

Vizier wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

I keep seeing people say that about vamps "needing" to be detectable in PvP but my question is... WHY? Why do they need to be MORE detecable than any other foe on the field? My own feeling is that "Get the healer!" is still Job One!

Because they are more powerful than your average bear. See it's like this...

You know how (maybe you don't so I'll explain..no sarcasm here) a guy, man male human has female radar. They just "know" there is a woman right there. That movement in the corner of their eye..woman. If it's not a woman they don't even bat an eye. If it is, they take note and look if they are your average horn dog guy. Trust me...they all look. Some more obvious or subtle then others but they all take note. Now what is it that makes guys "know?" We know. We pick up on the nuance of movement, gate, speed, bounce then sound and of course smell.

All that said in a video game those types of nuances a vampire hunter or survivor might pick up on are not present. All characters move the same. They have the same builds, same run, same walk same jump, same sneak, same attacks, same speed same sounds and no smell. The vampire class is more powerful overall (as evidenced by why so many choose to be one. I'm confident in my assertion that if Vamp class was weak there would be FAR fewer of them) and since it is more powerful those nuances I spoke of that vampire hunters and others intent on surviving day to day would notice are simulated through the exaggeration of physical characteristics and thus evening the playing field.

That is why it is important. Balance Grasshoppa.

The day may come as suggested in 1.5 where vamps will be readily apparent through passive abilities. If so then I would say appearance of vampires in general wouldn't matter other than as a creative prerogative of TES and ZoS.

Then I'm sure you'll forgive me for quoting myself as well. LOL

To a certain degree I can buy this. After all, as a woman I am aware of any strange man coming within range of me and I instantly assess him for potential threat. Welcome to the primary difference between boys and girls Grasshoppa.

But in an MMO how do you GENERALLY know what class (and any other variable that affects abilities) a foe is? You find out by watching what they do. You see that Aedric spear you know you are facing a Templar. You see those crazy dragon wings, hey you know you're fighting a DK. That crazy gout of blood and the enemy going limp? Um, yeah, probably a vampire. It is not actually more important for you to know who the vampire is over say, knowing who the enemy team's healer is. And if it IS that's because ZoS screwed up and THAT is what they need to fix.

I am cool with a "monster hunter" skill line that let's you highlight vamps and werewolves. Because it's not something every single player has, like that stupid add-on. The players that do have it had to make a conscious choice to take it and sacrifice something else in order to use it. And that is as it should be.

Next argument, please.

MornaBaine · October 2014

MrGhosty wrote: »

I think that hiding your vampirism should take some effort, for example I have created a dark elf covered in full body paint. I've not gotten them vamped yet, but the theory is that it will obscure some of the white skin effect. Additionally many just use disguises like the skeleton to obscure their vampire nature but as most do that it, you can usually guess anyone wearing it is probably a vamp. With the fighters guild changes coming those wanting to hunt vampires will be able to do so easily by investing skill points which seems a fair trade off. I don't think it should ever be something that can be completely obscured as that is part of the trade off system. The vampires have far fewer trade offs for their uptake in ability than a werewolf does.

Most folks who want this are fine (indeed even enthusiastic)about the idea of having to "do" something in order to access this ability or item. After all, that translates to more cool vampire gameplay. And who doesn't want that?

MornaBaine · October 2014

Vizier wrote: »

Have you ever considered that it's become personal for some and that your approach and attitude might be some cause for the pushback? You make it personal when you attack people that have as valid an idea/concept/reason as yours. The intractability causes contention. Seriously. My observation is that reasonable counter arguments are met with the same scorn your claim comes your way. Not attacking you. I respect your right to push for what you want. I'm just sayin...

Like I said. It's become an emotional thing and not necessarily a rational thing IMO. You said it yourself. You "HATE" the current standard for vamps in ESO. Making it personal is like putting blood in the water.

That others who support your position don't come to the forums might be a valid point but then there are others that don't support your position that also do not come to these forums for whatever reasons. In any case you can make that assertion but I think we really have to stick with using the community that does participate in the forums as our barometer.

In my best five year old voice... THEY STARTED IT! LOL Seriously though every initial post of mine has been polite, I've never said anything along the lines of, "and if you don't agree with me you're a jerkface!" but right from jump I get replies that not only don't have any argument of substance in them but are instantly antagonistic and rude. And you know that's true my friend. And what's more disturbing? That I am persistent about an aspect of the game I feel passionately about... or that a few folks have decided to stalk every thread I'm in just for the sheer joy of needling me?

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Stop fighting!

Be excellent to each other!

Where's the Nerd Solidarity at?

Still_Mind · October 2014

I think a lot of people in this thread who are ardently against hiding vampirism forget one thing - in TES lore, vampires are *supposed* to be able to pass for normal humans\elves\beastmen, even up close.

Lamae herself tells you that her children are everywhere, they wear rags and crowns, but remain unnoticed.

Werewolves aren't identified till they transform, as well.

Got a vampire character myself, and I got used to the fugliness, so I don't quite care as much about aesthetics, and 1.5 Evil Hunter should solve any ID issues in PvP.

Kronuxx · October 2014

Vampirism should not be hidden. Period. If it isn't hidden, then vampires shouldn't be allowed roaming around in broad daylight without some major consequences...

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Kronuxx wrote: »

Vampirism should not be hidden. Period. If it isn't hidden, then vampires shouldn't be allowed roaming around in broad daylight without some major consequences...

No

MornaBaine · October 2014

Kronuxx wrote: »

Vampirism should not be hidden. Period. If it isn't hidden, then vampires shouldn't be allowed roaming around in broad daylight without some major consequences...

So let me see if I understand this. Not only should vampires not be able to conceal what they are but ALSO they should be attacked everywhere they go? So, you want them to be unplayable?

Truth is though, with the way they look at present, I agree that this is exactly what should be happening. Even at Stage 2 people should be backingthe heck away from them and refusing to do business with them. At Stage 3 mobs with pitchforks and every guard within a mile's radius should be coming after them. This is actually part of the problem with the stages as they currently stand.

Whisper292 · October 2014

I didn't read every post because it's 9:00 in the morning and I don't have the attention span for that. Morna, next time you tell me you've posted, I'll try to get out here sooner. As I've said before, I agree with you on being able to hide your appearance. That being said, I do think you should have put an option in the poll for players who didn't want to hide their appearance. I understand why you did it the way you did, but it would be interesting to see how the balance shifted with that option.

I chose active ability. It could be an active skill to temporarily change appearance, perhaps a togglable skill that could stay on as long as you want with a hit to max magicka or max health. Or, Zos could take a page from Skyrim's book and have something like a "vampire lord" form. In Skyrim, the vampire lord form was an active skill wherein the vampire looked hideous but had very powerful abilities. Not in that form, they looked more human, but while they still had some powers, they didn't have the super-charged abilities.

morvegil · October 2014

I wear a helmet

chipputer · October 2014

Still_Mind wrote: »

I think a lot of people in this thread who are ardently against hiding vampirism forget one thing - in TES lore, vampires are *supposed* to be able to pass for normal humans\elves\beastmen, even up close.

There are numerous gameplay reasons that vampires should be easily identifiable, the least of which is PvP, but the more prudent being the vampire wearing full armor in a dungeon that doesn't reveal their affliction and gets bombarded with fire.

I shouldn't have to use an add-on to see active effects on someone to tell what they are. You're playing an MMO, not a single player adventure. Your immersion should take a hit for the sake of conveying information to other players in a non-intrusive way.

If your glowing red eyes at stage one is such a bad thing then you shouldn't have become a vampire. The otherworldly presence of a stage 1 and 2 vampire is actually quite neat.

Hiding it? No. Rebalancing the stages to make staying at stage 1 and 2 more feasible is what they should do. I don't know why staying at stage 1 is such a big deal to the developers since you are, arguably, the weakest at stage 1.

MornaBaine · October 2014

chipputer wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

I think a lot of people in this thread who are ardently against hiding vampirism forget one thing - in TES lore, vampires are *supposed* to be able to pass for normal humans\elves\beastmen, even up close.

There are numerous gameplay reasons that vampires should be easily identifiable, the least of which is PvP, but the more prudent being the vampire wearing full armor in a dungeon that doesn't reveal their affliction and gets bombarded with fire.

Over and over again I hear people say it is "important" to be able to tell who the vampires are in PvP. But no one ever explains WHY. WHY is it MORE important to know who the vampire is than it is to know who the healer is? Please explain.

chipputer wrote: »

I shouldn't have to use an add-on to see active effects on someone to tell what they are. You're playing an MMO, not a single player adventure. Your immersion should take a hit for the sake of conveying information to other players in a non-intrusive way.

Again, why?

chipputer wrote: »

If your glowing red eyes at stage one is such a bad thing then you shouldn't have become a vampire. The otherworldly presence of a stage 1 and 2 vampire is actually quite neat.

Hiding it? No. Rebalancing the stages to make staying at stage 1 and 2 more feasible is what they should do. I don't know why staying at stage 1 is such a big deal to the developers since you are, arguably, the weakest at stage 1.

I agree that I actually like the looks of Stage 1 and 2. But 1 is still too extreme to BE Stage 1. Like other ES games, Stage 1 needs to be more subtle. I do, however, agree with you on the mechanics of the stages. The timing needs to be rebalanced in a huge way.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

chipputer wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

I think a lot of people in this thread who are ardently against hiding vampirism forget one thing - in TES lore, vampires are *supposed* to be able to pass for normal humans\elves\beastmen, even up close.

There are numerous gameplay reasons that vampires should be easily identifiable, the least of which is PvP, but the more prudent being the vampire wearing full armor in a dungeon that doesn't reveal their affliction and gets bombarded with fire.

I shouldn't have to use an add-on to see active effects on someone to tell what they are. You're playing an MMO, not a single player adventure. Your immersion should take a hit for the sake of conveying information to other players in a non-intrusive way.

If your glowing red eyes at stage one is such a bad thing then you shouldn't have become a vampire. The otherworldly presence of a stage 1 and 2 vampire is actually quite neat.

Hiding it? No. Rebalancing the stages to make staying at stage 1 and 2 more feasible is what they should do. I don't know why staying at stage 1 is such a big deal to the developers since you are, arguably, the weakest at stage 1.

Right, all it would take is a change in the code to revert Stage 1 to your at-creation character appearance.

And right again, Stage 1 is the "weakest" but it's the safest. Especially when the Justice System comes out.

Sure be Stage 4 all you want out in the world while you're doing dungeons and whatnot but feed before you come to town.

And what's with this I need to feed 3 damn times to get back to Stage 1 garbage? Every time!

Still_Mind · October 2014

chipputer wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

I think a lot of people in this thread who are ardently against hiding vampirism forget one thing - in TES lore, vampires are *supposed* to be able to pass for normal humans\elves\beastmen, even up close.

There are numerous gameplay reasons that vampires should be easily identifiable, the least of which is PvP, but the more prudent being the vampire wearing full armor in a dungeon that doesn't reveal their affliction and gets bombarded with fire.

I shouldn't have to use an add-on to see active effects on someone to tell what they are. You're playing an MMO, not a single player adventure. Your immersion should take a hit for the sake of conveying information to other players in a non-intrusive way.

If your glowing red eyes at stage one is such a bad thing then you shouldn't have become a vampire. The otherworldly presence of a stage 1 and 2 vampire is actually quite neat.

Hiding it? No. Rebalancing the stages to make staying at stage 1 and 2 more feasible is what they should do. I don't know why staying at stage 1 is such a big deal to the developers since you are, arguably, the weakest at stage 1.

Dude, a player being a vampire is the least of your concerns in pug groups. As long as you can't see the setup and spec, vampirism is not even in top 3, unless they're the tank in a fire-heavy dungeon (damage shields don't care about fire vulnerability), but that's quite another matter...

Edit: grammar

Vizier · October 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Sorry to double post but I'm going to quote from one of your other threads in response to the balance issue-

Vizier wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

I keep seeing people say that about vamps "needing" to be detectable in PvP but my question is... WHY? Why do they need to be MORE detecable than any other foe on the field? My own feeling is that "Get the healer!" is still Job One!

Because they are more powerful than your average bear. See it's like this...

You know how (maybe you don't so I'll explain..no sarcasm here) a guy, man male human has female radar. They just "know" there is a woman right there. That movement in the corner of their eye..woman. If it's not a woman they don't even bat an eye. If it is, they take note and look if they are your average horn dog guy. Trust me...they all look. Some more obvious or subtle then others but they all take note. Now what is it that makes guys "know?" We know. We pick up on the nuance of movement, gate, speed, bounce then sound and of course smell.

All that said in a video game those types of nuances a vampire hunter or survivor might pick up on are not present. All characters move the same. They have the same builds, same run, same walk same jump, same sneak, same attacks, same speed same sounds and no smell. The vampire class is more powerful overall (as evidenced by why so many choose to be one. I'm confident in my assertion that if Vamp class was weak there would be FAR fewer of them) and since it is more powerful those nuances I spoke of that vampire hunters and others intent on surviving day to day would notice are simulated through the exaggeration of physical characteristics and thus evening the playing field.

That is why it is important. Balance Grasshoppa.

The day may come as suggested in 1.5 where vamps will be readily apparent through passive abilities. If so then I would say appearance of vampires in general wouldn't matter other than as a creative prerogative of TES and ZoS.

Then I'm sure you'll forgive me for quoting myself as well. LOL

To a certain degree I can buy this. After all, as a woman I am aware of any strange man coming within range of me and I instantly assess him for potential threat. Welcome to the primary difference between boys and girls Grasshoppa.

But in an MMO how do you GENERALLY know what class (and any other variable that affects abilities) a foe is? You find out by watching what they do. You see that Aedric spear you know you are facing a Templar. You see those crazy dragon wings, hey you know you're fighting a DK. That crazy gout of blood and the enemy going limp? Um, yeah, probably a vampire. It is not actually more important for you to know who the vampire is over say, knowing who the enemy team's healer is. And if it IS that's because ZoS screwed up and THAT is what they need to fix.

I am cool with a "monster hunter" skill line that let's you highlight vamps and werewolves. Because it's not something every single player has, like that stupid add-on. The players that do have it had to make a conscious choice to take it and sacrifice something else in order to use it. And that is as it should be.

Next argument, please.

Wait what? You think you won that? No-no, no-no, no. Or... any of the examples you gave could be a vampire without using their blood drain but I'd never know until I'm drain stunned and bat swarmed or they are mist forming away. You just don't have that luxury to sit and observe all the time. It's not my style to use questionable or nearly exploitive add-on's either. Look. The equalizer vs vamps is silver bolts, camo-hunter and fire. The best benefit is from stealth for the initial hit and knock-down then burn them up. I'm not going to ask the pvp community to gimp themselves so you can look pretty...sorry.

No there is no way I'll support your trip here until there is a better way of identifying vampires. When there is, and it looks like it could be soon, walk in the sunlight with porcelain skin, silky thighs and ruby lips to your heart's content. Until then...nuh-uh. Give it up. Balance comes first.

Still_Mind wrote: »

Dude, a player being a vampire is the least of your concerns in pug groups. As long as you can't see the setup and spec, vampirism is not even in top 3, unless they're the tank in a fire-heavy dungeon (damage shields don't care about fire vulnerability), but that's quite another matter...

Edit: grammar

Umm.. there is more to PvP in Cyrodiil than zerging pug groups. Did he even say anything about a pug group? Not seeing that anywhere in the text you quoted. And I'm sure batwarm with impulse/talon lock was never a problem for you. You do pvp right? For the rest of us that don't run with the herd or spend every pvp moment running from siege to siege whether or not your enemy is a vampire is actually pretty important. Right up there with know if they are a DK or Sorc.

OrangeTheCat · October 2014

"How would you like to hide your vampirism?"

I would not like to hide my vampirism. Not at all. It should not be hidden. The appearance is a consequence of my decision to be a vampire. We all have to live with the consequences of our decisions. I didn't have to choose to be a vampire; no one held a gun to my head. If I decide I don't like the vampire appearance, then I can get myself cured.

MornaBaine · October 2014

Vizier wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Sorry to double post but I'm going to quote from one of your other threads in response to the balance issue-

Vizier wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

I keep seeing people say that about vamps "needing" to be detectable in PvP but my question is... WHY? Why do they need to be MORE detecable than any other foe on the field? My own feeling is that "Get the healer!" is still Job One!

Because they are more powerful than your average bear. See it's like this...

You know how (maybe you don't so I'll explain..no sarcasm here) a guy, man male human has female radar. They just "know" there is a woman right there. That movement in the corner of their eye..woman. If it's not a woman they don't even bat an eye. If it is, they take note and look if they are your average horn dog guy. Trust me...they all look. Some more obvious or subtle then others but they all take note. Now what is it that makes guys "know?" We know. We pick up on the nuance of movement, gate, speed, bounce then sound and of course smell.

All that said in a video game those types of nuances a vampire hunter or survivor might pick up on are not present. All characters move the same. They have the same builds, same run, same walk same jump, same sneak, same attacks, same speed same sounds and no smell. The vampire class is more powerful overall (as evidenced by why so many choose to be one. I'm confident in my assertion that if Vamp class was weak there would be FAR fewer of them) and since it is more powerful those nuances I spoke of that vampire hunters and others intent on surviving day to day would notice are simulated through the exaggeration of physical characteristics and thus evening the playing field.

That is why it is important. Balance Grasshoppa.

The day may come as suggested in 1.5 where vamps will be readily apparent through passive abilities. If so then I would say appearance of vampires in general wouldn't matter other than as a creative prerogative of TES and ZoS.

Then I'm sure you'll forgive me for quoting myself as well. LOL

To a certain degree I can buy this. After all, as a woman I am aware of any strange man coming within range of me and I instantly assess him for potential threat. Welcome to the primary difference between boys and girls Grasshoppa.

But in an MMO how do you GENERALLY know what class (and any other variable that affects abilities) a foe is? You find out by watching what they do. You see that Aedric spear you know you are facing a Templar. You see those crazy dragon wings, hey you know you're fighting a DK. That crazy gout of blood and the enemy going limp? Um, yeah, probably a vampire. It is not actually more important for you to know who the vampire is over say, knowing who the enemy team's healer is. And if it IS that's because ZoS screwed up and THAT is what they need to fix.

I am cool with a "monster hunter" skill line that let's you highlight vamps and werewolves. Because it's not something every single player has, like that stupid add-on. The players that do have it had to make a conscious choice to take it and sacrifice something else in order to use it. And that is as it should be.

Next argument, please.

Wait what? You think you won that? No-no, no-no, no. Or... any of the examples you gave could be a vampire without using their blood drain but I'd never know until I'm drain stunned and bat swarmed or they are mist forming away. You just don't have that luxury to sit and observe all the time. It's not my style to use questionable or nearly exploitive add-on's either. Look. The equalizer vs vamps is silver bolts, camo-hunter and fire. The best benefit is from stealth for the initial hit and knock-down then burn them up. I'm not going to ask the pvp community to gimp themselves so you can look pretty...sorry.

No there is no way I'll support your trip here until there is a better way of identifying vampires. When there is, and it looks like it could be soon, walk in the sunlight with porcelain skin, silky thighs and ruby lips to your heart's content. Until then...nuh-uh. Give it up. Balance comes first.

First of all, it is already EASY to hide your vampirism on the battlefield. Plenty of armor allows for this. So the fact is that having glowing white skin is NOT ABOUT BALANCE. It is a cosmetic issue that is EASILY negated in PvP so it makes absolutely no sense to say that it's a deliberate balance for PvP. Because it's just not. Now, if your comeback is that, fine, in order to hide my vampirism I should just wear armor in cities and during roleplay sessions, I'll know you're just being bitter and have run out of actual arguments.

And as I've already said, I am completely cool with the upcoming ability to identify vampires. You'll have to spend a skill point for it and slot it and if you want to be a monster hunter, that's EXACTLY what you should have to do. They're also going to be gimping Batswarm so there's no more excuse to cry "Vamps are OP" either so THAT excuse for "I must be able to see the vamp!" is also gone.

So, once more... next argument, please.