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Reflective Scales - Bow users are useless.
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »
Which weapon does shadow cloak eliminate? The destro staff? Nope. The resto staff? Nope. Two hander? Nope. Sword and board? Nope. Dual wield? Nope. Bow? Nope. Detection potions, magelight, caltrops. Available to any class, any weapon. Now, which button is it that completely and entirely negates reflective scales? Oh yeah, it's soul assault. An ultimate.
oil and a meatbag catapult?
EU | PC | AD0 -
Epsilon_Echo✭✭✭✭MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »
Which weapon does shadow cloak eliminate? The destro staff? Nope. The resto staff? Nope. Two hander? Nope. Sword and board? Nope. Dual wield? Nope. Bow? Nope. Detection potions, magelight, caltrops. Available to any class, any weapon. Now, which button is it that completely and entirely negates reflective scales? Oh yeah, it's soul assault. An ultimate.
So were going to list out abilities? Let me skip to the results of that logic line shall we.
Including Ults, light/heavy weapon attacks, class skills, guild skills, and world skills (but excluding vampire/ww) there are:
88 skills that are by their nature, offensive damage skills.
This does not include defensive skills that have a lash-back effect or non-damaging skills that have a damaging morph. Pure damage skills.
88.
Want to guess how many of those skills CANNOT be reflected?
63.
Almost 75%.
L
2
P5 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭Epsilon_Echo wrote: »MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »
Which weapon does shadow cloak eliminate? The destro staff? Nope. The resto staff? Nope. Two hander? Nope. Sword and board? Nope. Dual wield? Nope. Bow? Nope. Detection potions, magelight, caltrops. Available to any class, any weapon. Now, which button is it that completely and entirely negates reflective scales? Oh yeah, it's soul assault. An ultimate.
So were going to list out abilities? Let me skip to the results of that logic line shall we.
Including Ults, light/heavy weapon attacks, class skills, guild skills, and world skills (but excluding vampire/ww) there are:
88 skills that are by their nature, offensive damage skills.
This does not include defensive skills that have a lash-back effect or non-damaging skills that have a damaging morph. Pure damage skills.
88.
Want to guess how many of those skills CANNOT be reflected?
63.
Almost 75%.
L
2
P
They are right. Reflective scales makes Bow completely useless.
It should be limited to 1-2 projectiles. Not make you invincible to bow attacks.>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War6 -
Epsilon_Echo✭✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »Epsilon_Echo wrote: »MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »
Which weapon does shadow cloak eliminate? The destro staff? Nope. The resto staff? Nope. Two hander? Nope. Sword and board? Nope. Dual wield? Nope. Bow? Nope. Detection potions, magelight, caltrops. Available to any class, any weapon. Now, which button is it that completely and entirely negates reflective scales? Oh yeah, it's soul assault. An ultimate.
So were going to list out abilities? Let me skip to the results of that logic line shall we.
Including Ults, light/heavy weapon attacks, class skills, guild skills, and world skills (but excluding vampire/ww) there are:
88 skills that are by their nature, offensive damage skills.
This does not include defensive skills that have a lash-back effect or non-damaging skills that have a damaging morph. Pure damage skills.
88.
Want to guess how many of those skills CANNOT be reflected?
63.
Almost 75%.
L
2
P
They are right. Reflective scales makes Bow completely useless.
It should be limited to 1-2 projectiles. Not make you invincible to bow attacks.
So thats you point? A skill makes a weapon class useless?
Better nerf it.
Better nerf negate then... since it makes 100% or all class skills useless (thats over 72 skills btw)
Better nerf sparks... since it makes 3 entire weapon classes useless.
Better nerf blinding light... since it makes EVERYTHING miss
Better... wait im getting bored because I just realized something. You people don't know these skills even exist? Never mind. Nerf away. I'm convinced that I will stay a step ahead of the nerf crowd. As long as you guys don't have any interest in exploring the skills the game has to offer then there will always be another tool for me to use to my advantage.
I'm not going to post here again, you can count that as a victory if you wish, I really do have better things to do.10 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭Epsilon_Echo wrote: »ExiledKhallisi wrote: »Epsilon_Echo wrote: »MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »
Which weapon does shadow cloak eliminate? The destro staff? Nope. The resto staff? Nope. Two hander? Nope. Sword and board? Nope. Dual wield? Nope. Bow? Nope. Detection potions, magelight, caltrops. Available to any class, any weapon. Now, which button is it that completely and entirely negates reflective scales? Oh yeah, it's soul assault. An ultimate.
So were going to list out abilities? Let me skip to the results of that logic line shall we.
Including Ults, light/heavy weapon attacks, class skills, guild skills, and world skills (but excluding vampire/ww) there are:
88 skills that are by their nature, offensive damage skills.
This does not include defensive skills that have a lash-back effect or non-damaging skills that have a damaging morph. Pure damage skills.
88.
Want to guess how many of those skills CANNOT be reflected?
63.
Almost 75%.
L
2
P
They are right. Reflective scales makes Bow completely useless.
It should be limited to 1-2 projectiles. Not make you invincible to bow attacks.
So thats you point? A skill makes a weapon class useless?
Better nerf it.
Better nerf negate then... since it makes 100% or all class skills useless (thats over 72 skills btw)
Better nerf sparks... since it makes 3 entire weapon classes useless.
Better nerf blinding light... since it makes EVERYTHING miss
Better... wait im getting bored because I just realized something. You people don't know these skills even exist? Never mind. Nerf away. I'm convinced that I will stay a step ahead of the nerf crowd. As long as you guys don't have any interest in exploring the skills the game has to offer then there will always be another tool for me to use to my advantage.
I'm not going to post here again, you can count that as a victory if you wish, I really do have better things to do.
Reflective scales lasts 4 seconds.... it costs almost nothing to use. Most DK's keep it up full time in combat. You cant do that with any other skill that nullifies a type of damage. Making an entire weapon tree useless is just dumb. Stop the denial lol.>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War9 -
Redlag✭✭✭No way, Sparks Nullifies all 2 melee guys on a field of 30 of your enemies. Fair is fair.
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Gillysan✭✭✭✭My only suggestion here is perhaps make Reflective Scales have high chance to reflect, but not 100%. I'm not good enough to comment about 1v1 in pvp, I stick to the pack and support it as a sorcerer.
I do have a DK but haven't pvp'ed with him since he's mainly a crafter. My next pvp character will likely be a Templar or NB. That's why I pay attention to these threads.
Crafting Services http://tinyurl.com/GillysansStore Organizational Guide http://tinyurl.com/GillysansEnchanterLeveling
ESO Dwemer Ruins List
Dwemer Forum Thread0 -
Psilent✭✭✭✭✭1. Fire your snipe shot
2. DK reflects it
3. Switch to 1h-shield and cast defensive posture to reflect the reflected shot back at the DK
4. Win
EDIT: The above method doesn't work. Sorry!
Wonder if I can shoot a DK and then pop my own reflective scales and watch it get reflected back? Hmm going to have to test it out!
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Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »
Which weapon does shadow cloak eliminate? The destro staff? Nope. The resto staff? Nope. Two hander? Nope. Sword and board? Nope. Dual wield? Nope. Bow? Nope. Detection potions, magelight, caltrops. Available to any class, any weapon. Now, which button is it that completely and entirely negates reflective scales? Oh yeah, it's soul assault. An ultimate.
Fear, Ambush, Suprise Attack, Impale/Killer's Blade, Crippling Grasp.
If You're a Sorc: Velocious Curse, Endless Fury, you can also pin them in place with Encase0 -
MiyaTheUnbroken✭✭✭✭MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »Thechemicals wrote: »
Which weapon does shadow cloak eliminate? The destro staff? Nope. The resto staff? Nope. Two hander? Nope. Sword and board? Nope. Dual wield? Nope. Bow? Nope. Detection potions, magelight, caltrops. Available to any class, any weapon. Now, which button is it that completely and entirely negates reflective scales? Oh yeah, it's soul assault. An ultimate.
Fear, Ambush, Suprise Attack, Impale/Killer's Blade, Crippling Grasp.
If You're a Sorc: Velocious Curse, Endless Fury, you can also pin them in place with Encase
Every one of those is magicka, and would require more than one cast to kill. Most bow users are stamina builds and don't have any magicka to spare. If you can come up with a viable option that is stamina based then you may have a chance to persuade me.
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kijima✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actually, NB's can manage a small amount of magicka very well, even if heavy into stamina build. You just need to look a little deeper.
IF you are saying you can't nuke a DK using a bow only, then yeah you cant.Been here since Feb 2014 - You'd think I'd be half reasonable at this game by now...3 -
Palidon✭✭✭✭✭
✭If they are going to nerf sneak attacks and bow attacks then ZOS needs to spread the wealth a bit and nerf Reflective Scales. (Make it a percentage value that a bow attack will be reflected).Edited by Palidon on October 24, 2014 11:09AM3 -
MercutioElessar✭✭✭✭✭So with Damage shields and now reflective scales...I have pretty much zero chance of killing a DK as a Stamina build NB.
So don't attack them. Search for more interesting victims.They can pop standard of might and flash lash my ass away while my shots DO NOTHING. No damage, or get reflected back to me.
Again: Why attack them when you know you won't get the kill? Worst case scenario: They call their freinds and you will be zerged.So is the only viable NB build the cloth wearing caster?
Absolutely not.
Got my Imperial NB Archer build and it rocks hard. One-hitting lows and two to three hitting Vets. As long as they're an arrows distance awy, I'm not having issues here.
Ah, and I don't attack victims I know I can't kill fast.If I've ever offended you,
just know that from the bottom of my heart,
I really don't give a ***.1441 -
Laggus✭✭✭✭So wait a minute here..are all the DKs in one faction or do you not have DKs on your side? Just a crazy question I thought would throw out there.0
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
There are tons of videos on the forum. Here's one that Sypher posted today.Rubbish, you can take down a DK as an NB, I've done it. It's not exactly a huge achievement, although personally I'm more satisfied with killing a DK than I am another class. You just have to build for it.
Plenty of videos within this forum showing you proof.
Show me one of you doing that and I will applaud you. I have virtually unlimited stamina and magicka, I can crit rush, executioner, dodge roll and vanish all I want. Still die every time.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/136777/nightblade-vs-emperor-dragonknight-vampire-1vs1#latest
Obviously not a bow build, but one of his bars is entirely made up NB class skills, and you do say you have unlimited magicka.
Unlimited magicka doesn't mean max spell power. The main issue here is that Stamina builds ( and particularly bow Builds) Are Rendered useless against Dk's.
In the Video you provided, Sypher isn't using anything that can be reflected by the scales.
I think a simple fix for this would be to make the spell reflect only the NEXT incoming projectile. Rather than all of them for 4 seconds.
Or stop using useless builds.0 -
GwaynLoki✭✭✭
o-OOr stop using useless builds.
Who would have thought that not all builds and weapons in this game are equally useful in the same context. Problem is, people watch some vids of a guy wrecking others with a bow, copy the build and think they now can wreck everyone they come across. Forgetting that vids usually contain highlights of people's gameplay (under specific circumstances) and rarely their fails.
If you aren't willing to put effort into crafting your own build, you have to live with the shortcomings of copied builds. Snipe builds were never good PvP builds, they just relied on your enemies shortcomings - lack of reaction, armor, hp or chance to fight back.3 -
Ifthir_ESO✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »You mean like the nerfs to:
1) Talon's range & damage
2) Standard of Might's damage mitigation and damage buff
3) Fragmented Shield's multiplicative damage
4) Battle Roar's regen
5) Fiery Grip's off-the-walls pull
6) Inhale's target cap
7) Molten Whip's spell damage bonus
8) Magma Armor's duration
No, DKs never been nerfed, ever. Lol
Yeah and shockingly DK's are still the toughest class in the game.
Good thing we are nerfing stealth though, clearly it was the changing factor in sieges.7 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ifthir_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »You mean like the nerfs to:
1) Talon's range & damage
2) Standard of Might's damage mitigation and damage buff
3) Fragmented Shield's multiplicative damage
4) Battle Roar's regen
5) Fiery Grip's off-the-walls pull
6) Inhale's target cap
7) Molten Whip's spell damage bonus
8) Magma Armor's duration
No, DKs never been nerfed, ever. Lol
Yeah and shockingly DK's are still the toughest class in the game.
Good thing we are nerfing stealth though, clearly it was the changing factor in sieges.
I was simply pointing out the narrow vision NBs have when it comes to class nerfs/buffs. I'm not gonna deny DKs at launch were OP and that some of the above were deserved. Inhale, Talons and Frag Shield in particular were pretty necessary nerfs. But somehow that guy thinks his NB is getting targeted while DKs are untouched which of course could not be further from the truth.
To your last sentence, PVP is not all about sieges. Getting insta-kills from 30+ meters away while never being in danger yourself is not a good mechanic and along with many other things it's getting adjusted.
Like I've said before though, I don't agree with the severity of the global stealth nerf and I think bow should have been hit more than melee attacks. Or to avoid confusion I think melee stealth should have received much less of a nerf.
Finally, toughest=/ best. DKs are pretty tough and difficult to kill but have less burst damage and no escapes which leads to lower KDR than other classes usually. Well maybe except Templar
Edited by Maulkin on October 24, 2014 2:14PMEU | PC | AD2 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ifthir_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »You mean like the nerfs to:
1) Talon's range & damage
2) Standard of Might's damage mitigation and damage buff
3) Fragmented Shield's multiplicative damage
4) Battle Roar's regen
5) Fiery Grip's off-the-walls pull
6) Inhale's target cap
7) Molten Whip's spell damage bonus
8) Magma Armor's duration
No, DKs never been nerfed, ever. Lol
Yeah and shockingly DK's are still the toughest class in the game.
Good thing we are nerfing stealth though, clearly it was the changing factor in sieges.
They actually aren't. There are many posts in the forum trying to teach people how to beat DKs, written by people from all the other classes that aren't QQing about DKs. I suggest you read them and stop asking for nerfs on DKs.
DKs have been nerfed enough and feel balanced. They can't tank more damage/people than a templar can and their burst damage is lower than most if not all classes.
Stop beating the dead horse, this is starting to look like a Chinese meat factory.3 -
morvegil✭✭✭✭Ifthir_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »You mean like the nerfs to:
1) Talon's range & damage
2) Standard of Might's damage mitigation and damage buff
3) Fragmented Shield's multiplicative damage
4) Battle Roar's regen
5) Fiery Grip's off-the-walls pull
6) Inhale's target cap
7) Molten Whip's spell damage bonus
8) Magma Armor's duration
No, DKs never been nerfed, ever. Lol
Yeah and shockingly DK's are still the toughest class in the game.
Good thing we are nerfing stealth though, clearly it was the changing factor in sieges.
They actually aren't. There are many posts in the forum trying to teach people how to beat DKs, written by people from all the other classes that aren't QQing about DKs. I suggest you read them and stop asking for nerfs on DKs.
DKs have been nerfed enough and feel balanced. They can't tank more damage/people than a templar can and their burst damage is lower than most if not all classes.
Stop beating the dead horse, this is starting to look like a Chinese meat factory.
Oh yeah...the only suggestion i hear is "Roll a new character". Melee builds against DKs are all but useless for NB.Lo'ke
Nord Vampire
Nightblade
Shield+BOW
Daggerfall CovenantBandit KingBridge Bandits Guild2 -
Sypher✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Given I'm not a stamina NB, I'm still pretty much a melee caster doing most of my dps from surprise attack + ambush.
I haven't lost to a DK 1v1 with this set up.
Nightblade vs DK EmperorDC Dragonknight 'Sypher - AD Nightblade Sypher Ali - AD Sorcerer Sypher Sensei - EP Sorcerer Sypharian - DC Templar Ali Sypher
Youtube: www.youtube.com/SypherPK
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/SypherPK1 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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So the answer is to create a build to counter a single class? Does no one else see a problem with that?Rubbish, you can take down a DK as an NB, I've done it. It's not exactly a huge achievement, although personally I'm more satisfied with killing a DK than I am another class. You just have to build for it.
Plenty of videos within this forum showing you proof.
:trollin:3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ifthir_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »You mean like the nerfs to:
1) Talon's range & damage
2) Standard of Might's damage mitigation and damage buff
3) Fragmented Shield's multiplicative damage
4) Battle Roar's regen
5) Fiery Grip's off-the-walls pull
6) Inhale's target cap
7) Molten Whip's spell damage bonus
8) Magma Armor's duration
No, DKs never been nerfed, ever. Lol
Yeah and shockingly DK's are still the toughest class in the game.
Good thing we are nerfing stealth though, clearly it was the changing factor in sieges.
They actually aren't. There are many posts in the forum trying to teach people how to beat DKs, written by people from all the other classes that aren't QQing about DKs. I suggest you read them and stop asking for nerfs on DKs.
DKs have been nerfed enough and feel balanced. They can't tank more damage/people than a templar can and their burst damage is lower than most if not all classes.
Stop beating the dead horse, this is starting to look like a Chinese meat factory.
Oh yeah...the only suggestion i hear is "Roll a new character". Melee builds against DKs are all but useless for NB.
Magicka or stamina based NBs can take on any DK (as long as it's not a pus[snip] glass canon bow build) with some skill.2 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭I take on DK's with a magic melee NB. Shade teleport when they plant their root and banner is your friend (no stamina or magic needed to teleport), as is Veil and it wouldn't hurt to throw on cripple if you don't mind it being a ranged attack but I've done it without.
Comically, I actually don't even bother anymore if they are trying to slow people on their way to a keep fight, what's the point? They can't catch me if I want to keep going anyway, I just walk away and lol at them stood in their ultimate, totally claw clipped.
*wave wave* bye bye DK, have fun standing on the spot in your ultimate, I'll be over here actually having an impact on the keep we're taking from you.2 -
ThisOnePosts✭✭✭✭✭Dude, I am a Templar, and I manage to kill dk's. Now I am not saying that it is a fair 1v1 fight with no support.
But meh
It isn't about fighting pretty, or your solo skillz.
Change your playstyle. Stealth up, wait for someone to engage a guy then finish him. Oh unfair, you didn't solo him. No, but he is dead............
Don't expect to mix it 1v1 in a fair fight when your class is about ambush etc.
In fact abandon the concept of fighting fair, it will free you.....
Maybe it's not intentional however you are making it sound as if Templars are weak against DKs. I have 1 of each class all leveled up, whatever the main issues surrounding Templars were months ago I can assure you they are excellent at the moment in the hands of someone who knows how to play them well.
The best DPS? No. But there are some amazing skills to choose from which can prepare you for any encounter in the game just based off of class skills alone.
ZOS did a great job at making Templars viable. However, NBs have had no such luck and only seem to have gotten worse over time. Yes sure, my NB can do insane single target DPS and burst DPS. That is all they are good at unless you go 1h/shield/resto to which feels forced as a NB and not as natural as it does on the other classes.
Cloak has been fixed, how many times? We could do a video montage of all the times it was supposedly fixed. I have it stop for no reason mid-way at times --- when not in combat. It's a bit silly at this point.1 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
So the answer is to create a build to counter a single class? Does no one else see a problem with that?Rubbish, you can take down a DK as an NB, I've done it. It's not exactly a huge achievement, although personally I'm more satisfied with killing a DK than I am another class. You just have to build for it.
Plenty of videos within this forum showing you proof.
This is what we all have to do. We make builds out of necessity not out of personal preference.
Builds out of necessity will be more successful than builds out of preference. Why should anyone be nerfed just so Guy A can use X when they have all the opportunity to win but refuse to take that opportunity.
Lets say I prefer to wear all heavy armor while wielding 2 Resto staffs, and I prefer to couple that with a bar of all mage guild and fighters guild skills. If I can't beat you does that mean you should be nerfed?
Simply put if you want optimal success you have to build for it. If you want preference, expect it to under perform. My skill bar is full of all the tools I need for all of the classes and builds that I might encounter. That goes all the way down to my armor sets, and every glyph I have on them.Edited by Armitas on October 27, 2014 7:34PMRetired.
Nord mDK1 -
kijima✭✭✭✭✭
✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
So the answer is to create a build to counter a single class? Does no one else see a problem with that?Rubbish, you can take down a DK as an NB, I've done it. It's not exactly a huge achievement, although personally I'm more satisfied with killing a DK than I am another class. You just have to build for it.
Plenty of videos within this forum showing you proof.
You have to setup any class for a specific task, if you want to excel at any given task.
I have to change my gear, jewelery, weapons and last but not least my bars when I'm trying to do the following:
1. PvE questing
2. PvE bosses
3. Defending a keep
4. Attacking a keep
5. Scroll Run
6. Ganking
7. Solo'ing a resource
8. 1v1
In PvE what I'd do in a cave full of skellies and ghosts isn't what I'd do with a cave full of spiders so to speak.
I'll give you a personal example, I have only in recent times been able to solo a resource, this is new for me and I'm proud that I've been able to achieve that as an NB (DK's are sniggering everywhere as they have been able to do it since adam was a boy), it was on my ESO list of achievements that I wanted to accomplish. Now, I have a certain setup for that exact task that works, I've tried other ways with other setups and failed. I've then switched back to what I know works and suprize suprize I can do it!
Thing is you can be at a keep defending, and see someone you want to take out, either someone you hate or a frenemy. Lets say that frenemy is your local DK and your ranged bow attacks while great at defending a keep are useless here on him, so you put your 1v1 DK tank busting gear on and get to business.
Of course, you don't need to go to that extreme but certain combo's with a build work better than others, and while my main is able to change her build very quickly with the sets of gear I've got at hand, it's not always required. I might only need to flip a few skills on my bar and voila, it almost feels like I've got a different character. If I'm in a tight group, taking names then it's sap essence and veils.
If you think there is a one build to rule them all, one that fits all scenarios, all play styles, where you don't need to change any skills on your bar, or equipment, then you aren't getting what this game is all about. (unless your a DK of course :P )Been here since Feb 2014 - You'd think I'd be half reasonable at this game by now...0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So with Damage shields and now reflective scales...I have pretty much zero chance of killing a DK as a Stamina build NB. They can pop standard of might and flash lash my ass away while my shots DO NOTHING. No damage, or get reflected back to me.
So is the only viable NB build the cloth wearing caster?
right now, the answer to your question, is sadly "yes"
hopefully tho in the future things will change and the tables will turn in our favor.
all we can do at this point is hope.
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