Should Crafting Mats Have Their Own Storage Tab/Bank Space?

Nestor · October 2014

CoolsHisHands wrote: »

Obviously you don't run your own business.

Do you? There is a difference between a profit driven organization and a video game past time.

What does a business have to do with a game? Nothing. Games are what I do after I am done with Business. Your tying yourself into knots here.

Increasing bag space does not hurt anyone, does not make the game any easier. Why because we can have lots of bag space as my signature says, we can have 350 bag slots for free. It's just a pain in the butt do deal with. So, we already have lots of bag slots, we just have to log in and log out of mules all game session long to use them.

The net effect you keep talking about with limited bag space does not exist as the limited bag space does not exist, as long as you roll alts that you have to log in and out of. Most people have Mules, at least one. I don't see the economy being ruined because of this.

All we want is the bag space that we have in a format that we can use. But for some reason you don't want that so you try to compare this game to a business and talk about mental health issues that people my have because they don't want to log in and out of storage mules all day long.

starkerealm · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

Just because someone make a choice, does not mean the choice is a good one. The only reason this choice was made was to foster interaction between players (quote from Paul Sage).

And to be honest, I don't think the devs believed we'd use our alts as mules.

I mean, that's where the system goes wonky. If, through the bank, you had access to the other character inventories on your account, this might not be as much of an issue, because you could cut down on the relogs and just cram stuff into the appropriate inventory remotely.

But, because of the way they did the math, and then the way players handled the game, we have something that involves a stupid amount of relogging.

Now, given the way players actually use their inventory spaces. Giving us dedicated slots, with a hard cap, for our materials, is probably the only smart choice.

Honestly, it would even make sense at that point to half the overall size of the bank. From starting at 60, to starting at 30, with each upgrade only adding 5 slots. And a "scrap book" page for the first 250 or 300 examples of any crafting item we cram in there.

EDIT: Hell, give us another gold sink. Start the crafting stacks at 100 (200 for runes), and then let us buy upgrades so it'll hold 10 or 25 more per stack, until it hard caps at 1k a stack (and 2k a stack for runes).

PBpsy · October 2014

Zolron wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Enough whining about deliberate game design choices. Limited inventory space was such a choice. It's not broken. But it does punish lazy players who want to hoard everything instead of making smart decisions about what to keep. I have one main character maxed in all crafts. I haven't maxed my bank space, and I only have 5 alts as mules, who still have space available. It was tough dealing with space issues while leveling crafts, but not impossible. That is how the game is meant to be. Others broke their crafters into multiple alts rather than all training on one character as a way to deal with space issues. Some players have used gold to max out bank and alts. ZOS created a space restriction that forces players to make hard decisions. I hope they never give in to player pressure to undo this.

Punish lazy player?? We are lazy because we would rather have all our mats in the bank instead of keeping ONLY 5 alts as mules? Or are we lazy because we want to hoard everything instead of making "smart decisions" ? This post makes no sense in my opinion and i'm not sure why you have such a negative stand on this.

What I really like is the 'smart decisions' part. We all know that dumping out some of those motif stones and some of those low level mats if we do not use them often requires a considerable intellectual effort and is not just dumb busywork.

Cuyler · October 2014

Crafting is meant to be a time sink as implied by Nick Konkle in the notorious quakecon interview. (will post link when not on work computer)

Bag space was intentionally limited so that a player would need to really think about what they were picking up as loot.

This makes the game harder, conversely, increasing bank/bag space would make the game easier because you could just pick up everything and do it quickly.By limiting space and forcing players to really focus on the mats that apply to them they've effectively added another time sink for crafting.

If you want to increase your woodworker skill quickly, focus on those mats/items for decon only for example. Then switch to a different crafting profession when that one is maxed.

If you want to level them all quickly well guess what, you'll be spending that time rolling 5 alts instead of simply focusing on one profession at a time.

The good news is that collectables will have they're own space soon and provisioning ingredients will be halfed. I don't think they will be increasing bag space anytime soon due to these reasons.

Vizier · October 2014

Ourorboros wrote: »

Enough whining about deliberate game design choices. Limited inventory space was such a choice. It's not broken. But it does punish lazy players who want to hoard everything instead of making smart decisions about what to keep. I have one main character maxed in all crafts. I haven't maxed my bank space, and I only have 5 alts as mules, who still have space available. It was tough dealing with space issues while leveling crafts, but not impossible. That is how the game is meant to be. Others broke their crafters into multiple alts rather than all training on one character as a way to deal with space issues. Some players have used gold to max out bank and alts. ZOS created a space restriction that forces players to make hard decisions. I hope they never give in to player pressure to undo this.

Well La de Dah...
It's a poor design choice as exhibited by your 1 main and FIVE MULES! You have no credibility and your opinion carries no weight...maybe dead weight.

As stated. It's a poor design right minded gamers are going to raise Stendar's Wrath until ZoS sees the light and washes their head with disinfectant and a wire brush.

curlyqloub14_ESO · October 2014

Hmm, well, as a completionist who does all crafting, I'd love to have more space. BUT... there are other changes coming down the pipeline already that will affect this...

First: Provisioning changes are in the works - with mentions of cutting the overall number of available ingredients in half. Obviously, no word yet when these changes will be live, but, it's in progress.

Second: the Champion system. I have asked about the effect this will have on crafting mats - haven't seen much response. But I think it stands to reason that if there are no Vet Rank levels, there is also no need for VR crafting materials. I am quite curious how this will play out for VR people wearing crafted armor and people who collect/sell those materials - that all remains to be seen. But my point here is that I would expect this will also significantly reduce the amount of crafting mats.

Of course, if you collect everything like I do, your bags will still be full. But I would expect these two things will ease the pressure on inventory space a good deal, and would wait to see the results before pushing for any more inventory space.

Nestor · October 2014

Cuyler wrote: »

Crafting is meant to be a time sink as implied by Nick Konkle in the notorious quakecon interview. (will post link when not on work computer)

Lets see, we have:

Research Time (months right there)
Farm Time (you can only farm so much going from A to

Materials that are rare or at least not in abundance (Nirnhorn, Motifs etc)
Purchasing Materials that can't be found (finding the Guild Vendor who has them)
Finding and getting to the Set Crafting Stations

I don't see how logging in and out of mules fits into that time sink. I don't see how having arbitrary inventory limits fits into that time sink. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Ourorboros · October 2014

Vizier wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Enough whining about deliberate game design choices. Limited inventory space was such a choice. It's not broken. But it does punish lazy players who want to hoard everything instead of making smart decisions about what to keep. I have one main character maxed in all crafts. I haven't maxed my bank space, and I only have 5 alts as mules, who still have space available. It was tough dealing with space issues while leveling crafts, but not impossible. That is how the game is meant to be. Others broke their crafters into multiple alts rather than all training on one character as a way to deal with space issues. Some players have used gold to max out bank and alts. ZOS created a space restriction that forces players to make hard decisions. I hope they never give in to player pressure to undo this.

Well La de Dah...
It's a poor design choice as exhibited by your 1 main and FIVE MULES! You have no credibility and your opinion carries no weight...maybe dead weight.

As stated. It's a poor design right minded gamers are going to raise Stendar's Wrath until ZoS sees the light and washes their head with disinfectant and a wire brush.

Whether or not the inventory system is a poor design is a matter of opinion, and regardless of what you write, mine carries as much weight as yours. Disagreeing with me doesn't make you right, just of a different opinion. I find the system annoying, but respect ZOS enough to accept their decision and play within the given constraints. If it really bugged me enough to whine and complain and poll about it, it would be time to play something else.

MornaBaine · October 2014

Ourorboros wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Enough whining about deliberate game design choices. Limited inventory space was such a choice. It's not broken. But it does punish lazy players who want to hoard everything instead of making smart decisions about what to keep. I have one main character maxed in all crafts. I haven't maxed my bank space, and I only have 5 alts as mules, who still have space available. It was tough dealing with space issues while leveling crafts, but not impossible. That is how the game is meant to be. Others broke their crafters into multiple alts rather than all training on one character as a way to deal with space issues. Some players have used gold to max out bank and alts. ZOS created a space restriction that forces players to make hard decisions. I hope they never give in to player pressure to undo this.

Well La de Dah...
It's a poor design choice as exhibited by your 1 main and FIVE MULES! You have no credibility and your opinion carries no weight...maybe dead weight.

As stated. It's a poor design right minded gamers are going to raise Stendar's Wrath until ZoS sees the light and washes their head with disinfectant and a wire brush.

Whether or not the inventory system is a poor design is a matter of opinion, and regardless of what you write, mine carries as much weight as yours. Disagreeing with me doesn't make you right, just of a different opinion. I find the system annoying, but respect ZOS enough to accept their decision and play within the given constraints. If it really bugged me enough to whine and complain and poll about it, it would be time to play something else.

Whereas I would prefer to advocate for IMPROVEMENTS on a game that in most other ways I really like rather than dropping a pile of cash on ANOTHER game and essentially starting all over. No thanks.

broer · October 2014

Not more bank space needed just make them stack more. Till 200 - 500 a stack

Imryll · October 2014

Yes, please, I'd love for multiple copies of motif books and recipes to stack.

VileIntent · October 2014

I only say no, because this is something that can be fixed with housing once it comes. I personally spoke to Mr. Sage about housing and he is very passionate about getting it in the game. It is on his list but will obviously come much later as he stated he wanted to do it right.

starkerealm · October 2014

Imryll wrote: »

Yes, please, I'd love for multiple copies of motif books and recipes to stack.

Ideally Motif books, recipes, and provisioning should have gotten shuffled into sub bags anyway. Sort of like how the old D&D games handled it.

Vizier · October 2014

Ourorboros wrote: »

Enough whining about deliberate game design choices. Limited inventory space was such a choice. It's not broken. But it does punish lazy players who want to hoard everything instead of making smart decisions about what to keep. I have one main character maxed in all crafts. I haven't maxed my bank space, and I only have 5 alts as mules, who still have space available. It was tough dealing with space issues while leveling crafts, but not impossible. That is how the game is meant to be. Others broke their crafters into multiple alts rather than all training on one character as a way to deal with space issues. Some players have used gold to max out bank and alts. ZOS created a space restriction that forces players to make hard decisions. I hope they never give in to player pressure to undo this.

"Enough Whining about deliberate game design." [/i]

As if it being deliberate and by design somehow should provide immunity from criticism or whining as you want to call it.

"Limited Inventory space was such a choice. It's not broken."

Nobody else is saying it's "broken." That is a nice way to falsely validate your argument, but nobody is saying it's broken, just that it is terrible design.

"But it does punish lazy players who want to hoard everything instead of making smart decisions about what to keep.

I wouldn't say throwing everything you collect into the inventory of five alts is particularly brilliant. It's merely an adaptation by someone apparently not interested in playing very many toons. I'd say folks not using mules are making the smart choices. This however, requires an inordinate amount of time be spent on inventory management. It's not as if it's some satisfying challenge to adapt to and overcome. It's just plain tedious...and expensive.

Somehow I doubt it was ZoS intent to force the player community to make a hard choice between crafting and using mules or playing a variety of classes and alliances. At best it was a way to manipulate the economy by forcing folks to purchase and or sell what they can't reasonably store. From my perspective the "design" was short sighted and doesn't fit well with the rest of the game design. Pretty sure that's the perspective of most and it's not because they are looking to make something "easier" or they are lazy. People typically accept a challenges and difficulties when it actually makes sense and isn't some kind of arbitrary time and money sink manipulation.

*Edited the quoted text and removed my previous quote from it since it caused the quoted thread to be compressed and not show the intended quote this post actually responds to. Now when viewing this post the relevant post with response can be seen.

MornaBaine · October 2014

Vizier wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Enough whining about deliberate game design choices. Limited inventory space was such a choice. It's not broken. But it does punish lazy players who want to hoard everything instead of making smart decisions about what to keep. I have one main character maxed in all crafts. I haven't maxed my bank space, and I only have 5 alts as mules, who still have space available. It was tough dealing with space issues while leveling crafts, but not impossible. That is how the game is meant to be. Others broke their crafters into multiple alts rather than all training on one character as a way to deal with space issues. Some players have used gold to max out bank and alts. ZOS created a space restriction that forces players to make hard decisions. I hope they never give in to player pressure to undo this.

Well La de Dah...
It's a poor design choice as exhibited by your 1 main and FIVE MULES! You have no credibility and your opinion carries no weight...maybe dead weight.

As stated. It's a poor design right minded gamers are going to raise Stendar's Wrath until ZoS sees the light and washes their head with disinfectant and a wire brush.

It's not that you have an opinion that makes you have no credibility on the issue. It's your reasoning which I find inconsistent and contradictory.

"Enough Whining about deliberate game design."

As if it being deliberate and by design somehow should provide immunity from criticism or whining as you want to call it.

"Limited Inventory space was such a choice. It's not broken."

Nobody else is saying it's "broken." That is a nice way to falsely validate your argument, but nobody is saying it's broken, just that it is terrible design.

"But it does punish lazy players who want to hoard everything instead of making smart decisions about what to keep.

I wouldn't say throwing everything you collect into the inventory of five alts is particularly brilliant. It's merely an adaptation by someone apparently not interested in playing very many toons. I'd say folks not using mules are making the smart choices. This however, requires an inordinate amount of time be spent on inventory management. It's not as if it's some satisfying challenge to adapt to and overcome. It's just plain tedious...and expensive.

Somehow I doubt it was ZoS intent to force the player community to make a hard choice between crafting and using mules or playing a variety of classes and alliances. At best it was a way to manipulate the economy by forcing folks to purchase and or sell what they can't reasonably store. From my perspective the "design" was short sighted and doesn't fit well with the rest of the game design. Pretty sure that's the perspective of most and it's not because they are looking to make something "easier" or they are lazy. People typically accept a challenges and difficulties when it actually makes sense and isn't some kind of arbitrary time and money sink manipulation.

Completely agreed. I do not at all think that using alts as storage RATHER than playing them is "working as intended" nor is it the "deliberate design choice" ZoS was aiming for.

guybrushtb16_ESO · October 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Completely agreed. I do not at all think that using alts as storage RATHER than playing them is "working as intended" nor is it the "deliberate design choice" ZoS was aiming for.

Well, it might sound harsh, but any serious mmo developer who didn't see alts being used as mules coming does strike me as odd. Then again, they were completely taken by surprise when animation cancelling became a thing, so it's not totally out of the question.

That being said, I too think limiting inventory space while creating a bloat of crafting mats is bad design. Combined with the ability to vastly increase our storage through tedious organizational work, it is a system that is basically asking to be circumvented, which IMO makes it very questionnable to even exist in the first place.

In any case, doing all those senseless housekeeping tasks arguably isn't fun for anybody and doesn't change how we play the game for the better, so I'd definitely appreciate it being changed.

astro74 · October 2014

I would love bags for crafting material ala wow that i can put in my bank. Make this a rare random loot so to give us a good reason to go out and slay some wildlife

Chufu · October 2014

yes please more space for the crafting mats!

Why?
A little example:
In other ES-games you have unlimited space, but all items have a weight.
In ESO you have limited space and all items have no weight.

In other ES-games I had always the problem (I am an I-loot-everything-and-stole-everything-I-see-character) that my unlimited space was senseless, because after looting 3 heavy legplates, hands and helmets the weight was 120/100 and I could no longer running. Thaaaaaat sucked a lot.

Now I have in ESO the problem, that I loot everything and my bagspace is full (very fast). And most of the items are craftable.

---> 1. Solution (thanks to ZeniMax) is the Collections-Menu (announced at the ESO-Guild summit 2014) which will remove all costumes, trophies, collectables and vanity pets from your inventory and put it into a new menu, where you can wear it/calling it. I can't wait for this feature!!

---> 2. Solution could be bagspace ONLY for craftables. Of course I would like to see "mineral bags", "herbage bags" and so on.

So, @MornaBaine I totally agree with you: We need MORE space for our crafting mats.

Sharee · October 2014

Normally MMo's limit how many crafts you can learn on one toon - you cannot learn everything.

TESO went a different route - it allowed you to learn everything, and let inventory shortage nudge the players into specializing (the limited space is one of the ways ZOS intended to limit crafting - dev quote)

So, my answer to the poll was no. I do not want more room for crafting mats should it mean i will no longer be able to learn all crafts on my main.

However IF such separate storage was possible without taking away my ability to learn all crafts, then i would support it.

Thrymbauld · October 2014

The bank will be big enough and have enough proper tabs on the day that people aren't using their alt slots as additional inventory storage.

The sheer number of different materials throughout the level ranges means that if you save them in order to equip alts, you don't have enough room. It's not about being selective, it's about the simple fact that if you choose to keep the stuff you'll use to have actual alts---rather than inventory mules---there isn't enough to go around.

Frankly, this isn't the kind of "challenge" I'm looking for in a game anyway. Are the folks that believe it's fine the way it is really suggesting that the game is more fun because you can't store things? Has more challenging gameplay because of this? I disagree. To me, it's nothing more than a pain in the butt.

Cuyler · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Crafting is meant to be a time sink as implied by Nick Konkle in the notorious quakecon interview. (will post link when not on work computer)

Lets see, we have:

Research Time (months right there)
Farm Time (you can only farm so much going from A to
Materials that are rare or at least not in abundance (Nirnhorn, Motifs etc)
Purchasing Materials that can't be found (finding the Guild Vendor who has them)
Finding and getting to the Set Crafting Stations

I don't see how logging in and out of mules fits into that time sink. I don't see how having arbitrary inventory limits fits into that time sink. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Scenario 1 (Large bag space):
Bags take longer to fill -> traveling back to town to decon/vend less frequently

Scenario 2 (Small bag space):
Bags fill quickly -> travel back to town to decon/vend more frequently

The amount of space your bag holds directly correlates to the amount time spent traveling back and forth to town. This I believe to be self evident.

What is not easily apparent is that if a player tries to work on every crafting profession simultaneously the bank with be filled with crafting mats without room for much else implying that devs don't want us picking up everything, but intended us to focus on a particular crafting profession one at a time. This is a time sink in that it will take longer to work each profession individually versus working them all simultaneously.

In regards to mules, using them is a work around effectively increasing bank space which allows you to work each profession simultaneously as explained above. Potentially this reduces the impacts of the time sink.

Personally I feel it may make it too easy for everyone to max crafting professions if bag/bank space was increased past what they have already proposed (ie. halfing provisioning mats, collectable bag).

Most of these complaints come from players who haven't maxed their bank slots anyhow. This is where a player is faced with a decision. Either pay into increasing bank space to max slots or pay with your time it takes to do all that traveling/bank management.

Gold sink or time sink your choice, but devs probably won't devalue crafting because players are spending to much time or gold. After all they get paid by how much time you spend subscribed. This is good for players too in that someone hoping to offer VR14 legendary crafting services won't be quickly outsourced.

Demira · October 2014

I would love a separate space in the inventory and bank ...hell I would dig up the gold for characters to in able it just to free up one or two of my character slots to be able to play an extra character!

MasterSpatula · October 2014

You know what I think would help but no one ever suggests? Making crafting mat max stacks bigger. Like... 200? 250, maybe. Not crazy big, but bigger than what we have.

EDIT: Oops, I see @broer did mention this.

MornaBaine · October 2014

MasterSpatula wrote: »

You know what I think would help but no one ever suggests? Making crafting mat max stacks bigger. Like... 200? 250, maybe. Not crazy big, but bigger than what we have.

EDIT: Oops, I see @broer did mention this.

I think the reason most of us don't advocate for this is pretty simple. I wouldn't do it because I don't have much call to have more than one stack of 100 of each mat I need. But because I need 52 (arbitrary made up number) DIFFERENT mats to work my craft each craft then still takes up too much bank space.

Nestor · October 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

.....But because I need 52 (arbitrary made up number) DIFFERENT mats to work my craft each craft then still takes up too much bank space.

Yep, it's not so much the amount of each crafting mat, but the numbers of the crafting mats that causes the most grief.

250 Crafting Ingredients in this game.

My count maybe off a bit, but here is where I counted the materials

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crafting

Of course Provisioning takes almost half this amount at 111 (112?). And, no you don't need to carry everything in every line. For example, with Provisioning, you can knock 32 off the material count for each alliance you are not crafting for, but that still leaves almost 50 ingredients if you craft for just one alliance. Sure you can keep stuff only for your level. But, what if you have more than one toon at different levels? What if you make things for other people at whatever level they are?

Bottom line is, a dedicated crafter needs about 100 to 120 slots at a minimum to cover all crafting lines in a limited way. Certainly more than 240 slots to be able to do it all.

Then we have the armor and weapons we want to keep (research or collecting a dropped set). We also have the Potions and Foods and Drinks that we make, trophies and collectibles, motifs etc etc etc.

It all adds up to a tedious way to handle an important support aspect of the game.

SaibotLiu · October 2014

This has been a hot and heavy (meaning utterly overdone) issue since before launch.

In every MMO to date that I have played the devs have made it a clear point to trivialize every game mechanic imaginable after launch. Travel, previous progression, inventory management etc. The fact that ESO developers have not yet done so in this case is commendable. And not giving in to every whim a certain demographic of players has goes a long way to having a coherent game that actually makes sense as it ages.

The design choice to have a limit on inventory space is not a unique one. The limit must be drawn somewhere as a way to limit the load on the database, inflation, and to make sure crafting mats still have some feasible value. People complaining about the inventory limit just feel "it's not enough". That's not a sound argument. Neither is "I don't have enough room for all my crafting mats". Just because you can master all crafting trees on one toon does not mean there are no draw backs to doing so.

There is a price to be paid. You don't want to have the burden of choice, you want it all. The game isn't designed that way, and I haven't seen one single argument since this debate began months ago that is going to convince anyone of a differing opinion that it should be. Just like I'm not going to convince any of the hoarders that they don't really need 14 stacks of capon meat. It is what it is.

Convenience does not=better any more than McDonalds is better for you than a home cooked meal. You can tell me until you're blue in the face that this is not real life and there should be no restrictions placed on your playstyle. But real life or not, it's still a game enjoyed by a lot of different people, and the health of the in game economy is a lot more important than your personal inventory needs.

Teiji · October 2014

In my mind, it would make sense for bank space to stay the same, but the stacking of items in your bank, a place which is specialised in efficient stacking of stuff'n'things, would be able to stack items more effectively.

Something simple like a 100% increase, so I can stack 200 Mountain Flower in one stack instead of two, would satisfy me.

As it stands now, I've not had trouble with banking and never will, I sympathise with everyone that gets stressed out with this, I'd hoard horribly with single player games. Crafting materials stacking efficiency could be a positive quality-of-life change for many.

Nestor · October 2014

SaibotLiu wrote: »

.....and I haven't seen one single argument since this debate began months ago that is going to convince anyone of a differing opinion that it should be.

OK, here is the convincing argument. We are already using Mules to store mats, so we have a few hundred bag spaces to store our items. There was a poll recently where the majority of folk are using Mules for storage. The game economy has not been broken over this, prices are still decent and people are still trading and selling items.

So, giving us a bigger bank is not going to change anything in the game except allow us to play the game without playing the Inventory Shuffle Dance that we do now.

You talk about database loads with more items, that is not an issue, anyone who knows anything about databases would understand that. If the number of entries in a database were an issue, then Google and Amazon would not be able to do the business that they do. BTW, ZOS rents server space from Amazon, so the hardware is robust. If it was a software/hardware issue, could we expand our bags to the current limits for an absurd amount of money? No, we could not, so providing efficient storage will not bring the server farm to it's knees. What is an issue is people hammering the servers logging in and out of Mules during the game and crafting sessions just to manage inventory. In that case, the game has to create or provide a new instance for each log in, and that is the real load on the servers from inventory, not the amount of stuff people want to store for crafting.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument against increasing bag space other than some people don't want us to have bigger bags for contrived reasons. Reasons that don't exist because the bag spaces that we want currently exist. Just in a format that is tedious for tediousness' sake.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · October 2014

Not only should there be a tab for crafting materials, there should be sub-tabs for each type of crafting.

SaibotLiu · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

.....and I haven't seen one single argument since this debate began months ago that is going to convince anyone of a differing opinion that it should be.

OK, here is the convincing argument. We are already using Mules to store mats, so we have a few hundred bag spaces to store our items. There was a poll recently where the majority of folk are using Mules for storage. The game economy has not been broken over this, prices are still decent and people are still trading and selling items.

That's a poor argument and one that's already been used dozens of times. Not everyone is going to bother to do that. Taking certain players out of the economy because they want to go through major inconvenience to be self sufficient is not going to ruin the economy. Increasing the bag space to the extent you would have it is, across the board. If you're already jumping through those hoops just to avoid paying another crafter some gold to do stuff for you, you're largely a non factor outside of selling your own stuff. Which would go out the window if we give everyone regardless of patience the ability to make anything they want on a whim. I would go in to the particulars of the economy but even the fundamentals are lost on the hoarder crowd and it's not going to make a difference anyways since your minds already made up.

The only argument you should need to hear was already put forth by the devs in beta when they stonewalled this change to begin with and gave numerous valid and acceptable answers as to why what you want logistically just isn't going to happen, full stop. Ever. Why you chose to go on some database rant when that was precisely one word in a pretty long post just shows how weak and infantile any arguments you might have actually are, not to the point at all.