There is also a bottom line in any game or in any environment that involves more human beings than just one.

You can be a jerk (could use other words that would better describe it, but would probably be "offensive") or you can be not. You can be willing to be friendly, compassionate, even willing to go a bit out of your way to help and have fun with other people, yes even those you don't even know. As long as they are "cool" too and returning the favour.

Because, in my book, activities like games, are all about entertainment and having a good time and fun. Unfortunately, people can be jerks and *** by default, and grab every opportunity to demonstrate it because it is their personal agenta that a game, hobby or entertainment is way too much "life important business". To each their own, they could find like minded individuals and preach their pompous ways and theories any time, day and night.

For the "average" adult "gamer", games are just that: entertainment time that can be quality time, spent with friends and even strangers that can be potential friends. Go and ask around, but even so, you won't get the real picture, because the "average" people do not care or even have the time to reply or counter any irrelevant pompous horsepoop theories about minutae details. They just want to have some good time.

And, quite simply, applying more "tools" in a game that can spoil or hinder the good / fun time for more people is just unacceptable, and only serves the tiny minority of "professionals" who seem to spend their own life (good for them, it is their life) about how this and that should be run in order to be "perfect".

Do your thing, but spare the rest of us the "grief", it is already enough to read and hear all the crapola, never mind experiencing it in-game, even if we, thankfully, still have the freedom to avoid the likes of you, like the plague.

Wow 'grief'

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

There is also a bottom line in any game or in any environment that involves more human beings than just one.

You can be a jerk (could use other words that would better describe it, but would probably be "offensive") or you can be not. You can be willing to be friendly, compassionate, even willing to go a bit out of your way to help and have fun with other people, yes even those you don't even know. As long as they are "cool" too and returning the favour.

Because, in my book, activities like games, are all about entertainment and having a good time and fun. Unfortunately, people can be jerks and *** by default, and grab every opportunity to demonstrate it because it is their personal agenta that a game, hobby or entertainment is way too much "life important business". To each their own, they could find like minded individuals and preach their pompous ways and theories any time, day and night.

For the "average" adult "gamer", games are just that: entertainment time that can be quality time, spent with friends and even strangers that can be potential friends. Go and ask around, but even so, you won't get the real picture, because the "average" people do not care or even have the time to reply or counter any irrelevant pompous horsepoop theories about minutae details. They just want to have some good time.

And, quite simply, applying more "tools" in a game that can spoil or hinder the good / fun time for more people is just unacceptable, and only serves the tiny minority of "professionals" who seem to spend their own life (good for them, it is their life) about how this and that should be run in order to be "perfect".

Do your thing, but spare the rest of us the "grief", it is already enough to read and hear all the crapola, never mind experiencing it in-game, even if we, thankfully, still have the freedom to avoid the likes of you, like the plague.

Again , the last part of your post completely contradicts itself.

Casuals here keep saying they dont want to play with elitists , WHICH ALSO usually dont want to play with casuals.

This tool serves exactly this purpose , dividing the two sides. Therefore both sides should just agree to add it, there is no down side , elitists will check the gear and wont invite the casuals , the casuals will see the guy checking the gear and will refuse to play with him.

So one must wonder , why people continue to deny this feature? It will do exactly what they "want". The reason is quite simple , what the casuals really wants is to be carried by others.

Mind you i can even understand that ,what is annoying is the excuses and stories they keep making up. Just come foward and be honest.

Stop causing that player 'grief'!!!
I mean we have here someone very sensitive since the normal emotional response to getting refused from PUG is grief. That is serious business.

The problem with your mindset, is also quite simple, and understandable. You fail to realise that, if ESO has, say, 700000 subscribed players, the vast majority of them are no where near or care any less about your fancy "Trials" or "elite dungeons, whatever".

And no I do not have any numbers and I do no need to. Fortunately what is still nice about ESO is that, at least, it provides some alternatives for all those who detest exactly THIS kind of "endgame" horsepoop. It might suffer from a myriad other problems, but it hasn't gone there yet.

On top of that, being stuck in the "elite Trial" mentality, you are also unable to grasp that "being carried" means next to nothing to many people, because it simply does not apply.

But, sure, go on and argue with the handful of "endgamers" in the Forum, just because you all possess a high pitched voice.

And, also, by the way, I would personally not care less if I am "being inspected", I play full time in Tera since Betas, and we do have an /inspect function there which is so detailed that you can see the colour of the underpants of the "inspected". Been there, done that, it is every day practice. What we don't have, or to a very minor degree, is self important jerks theorising about their "perfect endgame". These folks are segregated into a few guilds / parties, all know them, they are just isolated, while most of the rest of the playerbase is a lot happier, and friendlier.

So, yeah, so much about "inspections".

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Mordria wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

For those of you that don't already know this:

The head game designer of ESO has stated that he really, really wants there to be an "overall character strength" indicator. This is pretty much the same thing as an "inspect" feature because it lets other people know just how strong you are in relation to everyone else in the group. So expect the devs to actually consider adding this and be ready for it.

Do you have a reference/link?

I really hope they don't do something like that. It would be extremely disappointing. Better gear doesn't make a better player.

While true , "Better gear doesn't make a better player" you can just change the words and it will be true:

Better gear makes a player better.

Doesnt matter how good or bad you are , the better your gear , the better you will perform. No contesting this.

Not true. You will just have a bad player with better gear.

I would much rather play with someone that knows how to play smart and is quick on their feet in a fight than with someone that relies solely on their gear to get them by. Someone that knows their role in a group and knows how to use all of their skills in every situation.

This game does not need a vanity button.

Mordria wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Mordria wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

For those of you that don't already know this:

The head game designer of ESO has stated that he really, really wants there to be an "overall character strength" indicator. This is pretty much the same thing as an "inspect" feature because it lets other people know just how strong you are in relation to everyone else in the group. So expect the devs to actually consider adding this and be ready for it.

Do you have a reference/link?

I really hope they don't do something like that. It would be extremely disappointing. Better gear doesn't make a better player.

While true , "Better gear doesn't make a better player" you can just change the words and it will be true:

Better gear makes a player better.

Doesnt matter how good or bad you are , the better your gear , the better you will perform. No contesting this.

Not true. You will just have a bad player with better gear.

I would much rather play with someone that knows how to play smart and is quick on their feet in a fight than with someone that relies solely on their gear to get them by. Someone that knows their role in a group and knows how to use all of their skills in every situation.

This game does not need a vanity button.

Agreed, a bad player in good gear is still a flipping idiot, a good player in bad gear can probably outplay them.

But a Vanity Button sounds cool, maybe a button on your gear that changes colour or shape.

k9mouse wrote: »

People are liked used cars -- some of lemons and others are high end. Even if they are the same make and model. One is not forced to group with anyone, one can always find another group to do content with.

If one does not feel like a group up one a your standards, then one can find a group that is up to your standards. There is more to ESO then numbers and timers, BTW. It is not the end of the world if a group is wiped, shocking I know. If a player is below one's standard then may be you can help them? To get better gear, build advise or how to better to use skills or what skills to used where? Most of the time (and with an inspecting tool is made worse), they just get kicked and have no idea why or how to fixed it. How does that help your follow player?

It might take them a few times doing hard content to figure what works for them on their own. Most people are used to single games, (aka TES) and they are not used working with others like MMO players are. All the inspecting tool will do make the TES players vs MMO players even more divided then being closer together. For ESO to live, both camps need to understand and live with each other and someday, they will blend into one camp, but that takes time and ESO is very "young" game still.

And this is why we want player inspection. It's easier to help someone if you can check things out, even better if it included skills. I often times have to check everyones buffs to make sure they have food and inner light on already. I'm not blaming them, it's easy to forget, but why not make the info available.. basically why make it harder for the leaders who still want to help and clear with "casuals".

Tbh the way things are going now there won't be many left soon, for exactly the reasons stated above. I never have an issue with people coming in undergeared or with the wrong skills/build, I can suggest them what skills to use, gear to craft blablabla and get them in a spot where they are a help rather than a burden.. but given how f*** hard that is with the tools we have and with people just outright refusing to take any help because they want to play "their way" (= using bad skills, weapons, armor that provides no benefits). Who is actually gonna do that?

Most of the people left doing PUG AA runs already require achievements and will just randomly kick everyone who so much as smells like they might not be good enough. That's not a problem for me, I have my speedruns and good groups I run with.. but it sure as hell should be considered a problem for those "casuals" who want to see trials in the future.

TLDR: If we had player/group inspection there would probably be more people who were willing to do exactly what you say = help, because then it wouldn't be quite as much banging your head against the wall as it is now.

(fails Varlariel)
"Can everyone whisper me DPS? Not gonna kick anyone, just need to know so I can help."
*silence*

Oh well, disband then.

magnusnet wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

No no no and no. Elitism is bad mmk. This game encourages experimenting and inspecting gear would restrict players to community expectations. Its bad enough that non templars aren't allowed to heal and stam builds are frowned upon.

#1: This game does NOT encourage experimenting AT ALL. For a game to encourage experimenting it requires ways to see if your experiment is actually working which means having at the very least a combat log and a DPS meter which this game doesn't have.
#2: Sorcs are pretty decent healers but templars ARE the best healers in the game. Why conform with decent or less good when you can have the best?
#3: Stam builds aren't frowned upon, it's plain and simple math and experimenting that has led to the conclusion that they pure and utterly suck at the moment and even when they fix DW and 2H they will continue to suck since ZOS hasn't been working on BOWs which means that you can't clear content like Arena, sanctum or any Hard Mode which require you to fight far away from your enemies.

1: This game encourages experimenting through not being able to see the + or - .1% difference between optimal and non optimal.
2: Technically speaking blessing of restoration is a much better heal than breath of life for burst healing as on max targets in a 4 man instance a full weapon damage magicka resto staff heal build can split 3k healing between four targets AND boost their armor and spell resist whereas BoL can Pull 2.8k on maximum targets, blessing of restoration is cheaper, this makes class pretty irrelevant for heals if you're good enough to land resto staff heals properly.
3: Oh, I'm sorry I didn't realize that I CLEARLY DREAMED IT UP when I got all hardmodes (with the exception of 0 deaths in COH atm) and all speed runs + DSA champion with a stam dps build.

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

The problem with your mindset, is also quite simple, and understandable. You fail to realise that, if ESO has, say, 700000 subscribed players, the vast majority of them are no where near or care any less about your fancy "Trials" or "elite dungeons, whatever".

And no I do not have any numbers and I do no need to. Fortunately what is still nice about ESO is that, at least, it provides some alternatives for all those who detest exactly THIS kind of "endgame" horsepoop. It might suffer from a myriad other problems, but it hasn't gone there yet.

On top of that, being stuck in the "elite Trial" mentality, you are also unable to grasp that "being carried" means next to nothing to many people, because it simply does not apply.

But, sure, go on and argue with the handful of "endgamers" in the Forum, just because you all possess a high pitched voice.

And, also, by the way, I would personally not care less if I am "being inspected", I play full time in Tera since Betas, and we do have an /inspect function there which is so detailed that you can see the colour of the underpants of the "inspected". Been there, done that, it is every day practice. What we don't have, or to a very minor degree, is self important jerks theorising about their "perfect endgame". These folks are segregated into a few guilds / parties, all know them, they are just isolated, while most of the rest of the playerbase is a lot happier, and friendlier.

So, yeah, so much about "inspections".

And again no reason to not add it for those that actually want to play said endgame.

Im willing to bet the amount of players that want to play the endgame content is actually large enough any day to warrant the creation of such feature , even if there are ofc large numbers also doing other things.

I can say that in WoW for sure the vast majority used gear score and such atleast on endgame PUGs back in the days i played , therefore i can present this being a another game with inspect feature where if anything the opposite happens.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

That is EXACTLY the point , let me make it even simpler:

Bad player + Good gear is 100 time better than bad player + bad gear.
[...]
That is the point of this tool: Bad player + Good gear = Average result.

I disagree. A "bad" player wouldn't know how to utilize the good gear he has. He will always be playing subpar, because he doesn't know or care about skill rotations, skill synergies, timing, movement, etc.

The only way to avoid inviting rotten eggs into your party is to know the player well. A gear score/inspection feature will never be a shortcut for socializing. At least not in a game I still want to play.

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

That is EXACTLY the point , let me make it even simpler:

Bad player + Good gear is 100 time better than bad player + bad gear.
[...]
That is the point of this tool: Bad player + Good gear = Average result.

I disagree. A "bad" player wouldn't know how to utilize the good gear he has. He will always be playing subpar, because he doesn't know or care about skill rotations, skill synergies, timing, movement, etc.

The only way to avoid inviting rotten eggs into your party is to know the player well. A gear score/inspection feature will never be a shortcut for socializing. At least not in a game I still want to play.

Use a Guild then -- one gets to know others that way. PUG groups are the luck of the drawn and random -- adds it own layer of challenge. If player thinks he / she is "good", then let that player help others instead of bashing them.

It is easy to run with known "good" players, the real challenge, helping "bad" players with their content. Not everyone can do that.

magnusnet wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

That is the point of this tool: Bad player + Good gear = Average result.

Totally agree. Even a bad player with the correct armor & skills can pull the basic needed DPS to clear hard content.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

1: This game encourages experimenting through not being able to see the + or - .1% difference between optimal and non optimal.
2: Technically speaking blessing of restoration is a much better heal than breath of life for burst healing as on max targets in a 4 man instance a full weapon damage magicka resto staff heal build can split 3k healing between four targets AND boost their armor and spell resist whereas BoL can Pull 2.8k on maximum targets, blessing of restoration is cheaper, this makes class pretty irrelevant for heals if you're good enough to land resto staff heals properly.
3: Oh, I'm sorry I didn't realize that I CLEARLY DREAMED IT UP when I got all hardmodes (with the exception of 0 deaths in COH atm) and all speed runs + DSA champion with a stam dps build.

1: Not even going to waste more time answering to this. You "argument" makes no sense and any theorycrafter that actually designed a good build will tell you this game is not experiment friendly.

2: 4man instances? No challenge except for Arena Hard Mode, even COH is easy with magicka builds, got all the achievements after 3 tries. As for Breath of life it is necessary for almost any hard content in the game. You need it on Arena, you need it on Sanctum, you need it in AA HM. BoR also implies your party is stacking: GL doing that in VR City of Ash or Sanctum or Arena or any future hard content for that matter since ZOS doesn't want us stacking and DPSing anymore.

3: I highly doubt so but if it's the case, you got carried Hard Mode Time . I understand you're against inspect. I wouldn't want to carry you.

1: to explain myself more clearly, by not showing clear numbers as to the effects of your changes to your build the difference between 1.5 and 1.4k dps isn't really all that noticeable. This means that in a 'blind' environment several builds could be popular and accepted because they feel just as fast as each other, but once you can visually see one is performing 5% better that all falls apart.

2: Yes, most 4 man instances are pretty easy, but then again so are AA and HRC, looking at DSA, I can honestly say that on a smooth run there is never a time where I wouldn't be able to position myself on my healer to effectively heal the whole group with just resto staff heals. As for SO, you normally run 3 healers for that thus could for the more split intensive mechanics have your templar(s) doing work, and have a resto staff based healer amongst those who aren't splitting as frequently. #tactics.

3: I wouldn't want you to carry me, I rather just push out my 1k single target dps (yeah falling short of the potential dps magicka builds push out, but plenty enough for all achievements and content in general) and plenty strong aoe dps in order to pull my own weight.

But hey what would I know, I'm deliberately running a character that is a little bit sub-optimal, I'm clearly an incompetent dead weight in all pve endeavours that I undertake. /sarcasm. I mean think about it for a second, you can't carry a dead-weight dps through a normal DSA run in 90 minutes flat, which is a good indicator that when I was in a group that breezed through it that quickly that I was at least pulling most of my weight.

Pulling this back to the original argument however... Gear inspection is folly as it will result in the community railroading itself into (on a relative scale) a very small number of acceptable builds. Fact of the matter is if you want to run a weekly hrc speed run with a pug, all you need to do is get a linked achievement - if they've done it before I'm sure they can do it again.

In advance to counter your argument 'but people with the achievements may have been carried' I'll say this. At least they were able to be carried, at least they didn't find so many ways to die that it drove the timer past 30 minutes every single time they ran it which is more than you can expect from some guy who's never got a speed run but is toting around in a full Aether set.

Once again I will state my main point against gear inspections. The community will just run the game into the ground under the presumption that 5% less than the best can never even work.