Regarding Snipe (Bow)

Baumlaus · October 2014

A small equation regarding the Bow/Snipe changes. You reduces the casting time of Snipe about 40% to 1,1 secons (from 1,8 seconds)
On live we having this situation: With a full stamina build, a sneaking nightblade(every other class hits strong too but nightblades profit most of sneak), with a bow hits you with around 2k+ damage when you get sniped. If you are on your horse and get knocked down the whole process of falling from the horse and CC'breaking afterwards takes about 1sec which gives you, with the casting time of 1.8 seconds of snipe right now, about 0,8 second to react and save your a**. (let it be blazing shield, dragon blood, streak,shadow cloak and so) before the next snipe with around 1,2k hits.
For now we have, most of the times, enough time to react to it and get a chance to fight back/save yourself, but with a cast time of 1,1 secs you get robbed of that chance. You basically have no chance anymore to react to anything a sneaking bow player does to you. And to be honest a 5% damage nerf is nothing in a 2000point damage hit (5%=100damage reduce).
I know you like to make Bow more viable in PvE, and regarding PvE its a great change, but in PvP it just unbalances sneaking attacks even more, in my opinion.
The thing is: Yeah he casts 2 snipes but you dont get anything from the first cast time as the fight, for you, is just starting when the first cast hits, which makes the second cast hitting 1,1secs after you can notice it, regarding that you have to do a CC break first to react to it, it seems awfully fast.
>i've tested it myself: you can just stand around in PvP and double cast snipe on people dealing around 3000-3500 damage without them, as before, even getting a chance to react<

Here would be a/my solution:
1. After a player gets hit by a Snipe attack, all following Snipe attacks casted on that player, in the next 3 seconds, deal xx%(maybe around 50%) less damage.
That would make the initial sneaking attack still strong but the potenial of people just getting sniped less.
2. Reduces the overall damage more than just 5%

>i like this change regarding PvE alot but like i tested it myself and it is a bit too strong in PvP right now <

greetings
Baumlaus

Syntse · October 2014

I know this is RPG and so but this sounds almost like complaining sniper OHK with headshot in FPS game.

It is snipe after all.

Baumlaus · October 2014

Dont get me wrong on this, but i just dont understand why it doesnt bother people that there is a skill existent that makes your skill pointless because you cant react to what is happening

trimsic_ESO · October 2014

I agree that Snipe is dealing too much damage. I'm fine with the new cast time; but then the output damage shall be reduced.

More generally speaking, the damage dealt with melee attacks, i.e. < 7 m, is not competitive with the damage dealt with range attacks.

The following range skills deal too much damage:
- Snipe
- Flying blade (morph of hidden blade), which I use a lot

Same remark about these gap closer skills:
- Critical rush (morph of critical charge)
- Invasion (morph of shield charge)

I would expect that melee attacks do more damage actually. It's not logic that melee attacks, which expose the offender to many forms of retaliation, are not more rewarding than range attacks. There is something that should be changed in my opinion.

Xsorus · October 2014

The burst on pts is actually less then live

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Snipe is fine on PTS....

Its a sneak attack. If there was no good sneak crit DMG it would just be another joke skill perma blocked by everyone in cyrodil who seem to have their right mouse button duct taped down at all times.

ONLY a NIGHTBLADE can hit that hard other builds snipe crit for 1000-1600.
Its amazing u all don't complain more about nightblade openers in general which do anywhere from 1500-3000 damage melee.

You magicka users want your cake and eat it to.

DDuke · October 2014

So much QQ...

As @xsorusb14_ESO mentioned above, the burst of bow is actually less after the patch than it is on live.

Meanwhile the sustained DPS, which was abysmal, has gone up.

Can we stop complaining?

Zheg · October 2014

I definitely agree that DW and 2H should do more dmg than bows, and it sounds like they will be.

As to the OP, sounds like people will actually have to make some hard decisions (for once...) when choosing their build. They can stay dress and stick and get near one-shotted from the occasional sneak attack in pvp, or they can toss on some heavy armor to increase their physical damage mitigation, though they now won't be able to spam impulse as much. Sounds like GOOD balance to me.

Darthryan · October 2014

You can't doudle snipe someone for 3000-3500k. Proof please.

Baumlaus wrote: »

>i've tested it myself: you can just stand around in PvP and double cast snipe on people dealing around 3000-3500 damage without them, as before, even getting a chance to react<

greetings
Baumlaus

Take screenshot and I'll pay u 20k if I'm wrong.

eliisra · October 2014

Zheg wrote: »

As to the OP, sounds like people will actually have to make some hard decisions (for once...) when choosing their build. They can stay dress and stick and get near one-shotted from the occasional sneak attack in pvp, or they can toss on some heavy armor to increase their physical damage mitigation, though they now won't be able to spam impulse as much. Sounds like GOOD balance to me.

Getting near 1 shot is "good balance" lol...This is not some trashy p2w/ fp2 game where all the teenage boys gets to instagib from sneak, feed their ego's and talk smack about it. I choose a subscription based game to avoid that kind of junk PvP.

Been for 1850 by Focused Aim in full heavy btw. You should do some testing before assuming heavy armour makes much of a difference. Armour rating doesn't reduce incoming dmg enough, especially not in PvP where your enemies has actual penetration passives.

Than there's the Lethal Arrow, the second and most popular morph from Snipe, it's a poison attack. Meaning you need poison resist, not higher armour mitigation to reduce the dmg taken.

DDuke · October 2014

eliisra wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As to the OP, sounds like people will actually have to make some hard decisions (for once...) when choosing their build. They can stay dress and stick and get near one-shotted from the occasional sneak attack in pvp, or they can toss on some heavy armor to increase their physical damage mitigation, though they now won't be able to spam impulse as much. Sounds like GOOD balance to me.

Getting near 1 shot is "good balance" lol...This is not some trashy p2w/ fp2 game where all the teenage boys gets to instagib from sneak, feed their ego's and talk smack about it. I choose a subscription based game to avoid that kind of junk PvP.

Been for 1850 by Focused Aim in full heavy btw. You should do some testing before assuming heavy armour makes much of a difference. Armour rating doesn't reduce incoming dmg enough, especially not in PvP where your enemies has actual penetration passives.

Than there's the Lethal Arrow, the second and most popular morph from Snipe, it's a poison attack. Meaning you need poison resist, not higher armour mitigation to reduce the dmg taken.

If you get one shot by 1850 crit, maybe it's time to get more health?
Magicka builds can achieve the same kind of burst dmg btw

e.g. Ambush->Concealed Strike for instant 2,4k~

Also, Lethal Arrow checks against both Armour & Poison Resistance.
This means you can reduce its damage by up to 50% with armour & 50% of the remaining 50% with Poison Resistance.

E.g. I crit you for 2,5k when you don't wear any armour/poison resistance, 1,25k on 50% armour & 612dmg on 50% armour and 50% poison resistance.

As for subscription games having somehow magically different PvP... well, I must assume you didn't play vanilla WoW where you could get literally one shot by Pyroblasts & shaman Windfury

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

DDuke wrote: »

As for subscription games having somehow magically different PvP... well, I must assume you didn't play vanilla WoW where you could get literally one shot by Pyroblasts & shaman Windfury

I was one of those Windfury shamans.... god did those ohkos feel good

c0rp · October 2014

You didnt mention that the damage was decreased...which is LOWERING the burst ability of the skill.

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO · October 2014

A lot is sacrificed to get to the point where Snipe is criting for ~2k. Not running enough Impen or HA is part of that; archers need to be lucky when they pick a target for that skill. It's a very niche skill for specific builds to pull high damage from. If it's a type of build you aren't equipped to counter, then welcome to eso. We should all suck against something.

guybrushtb16_ESO · October 2014

DDuke wrote: »

e.g. Ambush->Concealed Strike for instant 2,4k~

Also, Lethal Arrow checks against both Armour & Poison Resistance.
This means you can reduce its damage by up to 50% with armour & 50% of the remaining 50% with Poison Resistance.

E.g. I crit you for 2,5k when you don't wear any armour/poison resistance, 1,25k on 50% armour & 612dmg on 50% armour and 50% poison resistance.

I believe when abilities go against 2 defenses, they are simply added up but still cap the same, so 50% is still the hardcap against everything.

Zheg · October 2014

eliisra wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As to the OP, sounds like people will actually have to make some hard decisions (for once...) when choosing their build. They can stay dress and stick and get near one-shotted from the occasional sneak attack in pvp, or they can toss on some heavy armor to increase their physical damage mitigation, though they now won't be able to spam impulse as much. Sounds like GOOD balance to me.

Getting near 1 shot is "good balance" lol...This is not some trashy p2w/ fp2 game where all the teenage boys gets to instagib from sneak, feed their ego's and talk smack about it. I choose a subscription based game to avoid that kind of junk PvP.

Been for 1850 by Focused Aim in full heavy btw. You should do some testing before assuming heavy armour makes much of a difference. Armour rating doesn't reduce incoming dmg enough, especially not in PvP where your enemies has actual penetration passives.

Than there's the Lethal Arrow, the second and most popular morph from Snipe, it's a poison attack. Meaning you need poison resist, not higher armour mitigation to reduce the dmg taken.

The part you're missing, is that you only get near one-shotted because if you're going glass cannon and not stacking enough health and/or armor. 1850 damage on heavy armor should be around half your health - you should be able to react with half your health left. Do do that much damage using snipe, that means the other player has to go full glass cannon melee dmg, which means they'll fold like paper. Moreover, sneak attacks are a one-time deal. If you can survive, the person that attacked you likely can't survive pro-longed fights.

Armor does mitigate Lethal Arrow, and poison resist just reduces the dmg that much more.

On a side note, they're changing how the armor types work, and removing softcaps. Heavy armor is supposed to become the go-to for dmg mitigation, so stop the chicken-little until we see what these changes are. Even without them, snipe isn't as bad as you think it is. And devil's advocate, if by some bizarre turn of events snipe ends up being as OP as you think it will, thank GOD the dress and stick meta is changing.

Yusuf · October 2014

Baumlaus wrote: »

Dont get me wrong on this, but i just dont understand why it doesnt bother people that there is a skill existent that makes your skill pointless because you cant react to what is happening

Look at me i sniped someone off his horse, i should be the next emperor.
But first i will record it an upload a video on it on youtube!

kijima · October 2014

A NB that is magicka based with big spell damage can hit out of stealth with Ambush>concealed weapon>soul harvest>Impale and take you down quick anways.

Not really seeing much of an issue here.

PBpsy · October 2014

kijima wrote: »

A NB that is magicka based with big spell damage can hit out of stealth with Ambush>concealed weapon>soul harvest>Impale and take you down quick anways.

Not really seeing much of an issue here.

That NB is exactly next to the target and if his rotation fails and the target recovers he will have a hard time getting that kill. If the bowman fails the initial rotation he will much more easily gtfo. The bow user also has a lot more freedom to engage in combat targets from stealth which is what most archers actually do. Also the range of Ambush is 22n and can't be made longer, the range of snipe is 35 m and can be made longer with gear.The bowman will have a lot easier time setting himself up for the sneak attack. We can't even begin to compare the risk/ rewards of the 2 approaches.

Ilven · October 2014

I hit 115 damage with Lethal Arrow on a DK with a shield raised

kijima · October 2014

With that combo I'm doing 3K plus damage. The only person walking away from that encounter is me as I wipe your blood off my daggers. Bow is hit and miss, even when built for it (which I am, bow damage now is 222 and even more from sneak, I'd expect to do bat crap crazy damage with my build)

Try hitting a DK using reflective scales, that's fun. Drop caltrops on them and fire a few venoms or a snipe, you'll get a BOOM, but it'll be you.

Eveything has a counter, bows are great if you build for them and play a certain way, then again if you build a certain way and counter for them, bow users are great AP.

Swings and round abouts.

Bashev · October 2014

Ilven wrote: »

I hit 115 damage with Lethal Arrow on a DK with a shield raised

You cannot cirt on stealth when your target has a shield.

Mumyo · October 2014

Ilven wrote: »

I hit 115 damage with Lethal Arrow on a DK with a shield raised

Reminds me that they should do something about the blocking. I had duels where i killed my opponent with my stamina meleebuild by hitting his block for many minutes till he died... He never ran out of stamina or was even close to. I heard that they will put away the mechanics allowing to cast during the block. Is that real?

JLB · October 2014

I think bow and sneak attacks are fine, no need for nerfs.
It's a possibility in PvP and that makes it much more interesting.
I never played bow or make a ganking build, btw. But if they are good enough to down 3k+ health before I can roll dodge or block or break CC or use a pot, they deserved the AP imo.

killedbyping · October 2014

I think that snipe deal way to LOW damage.

Xeniph · October 2014

From my testing, only the baddies will use Snipe x2. It's still WAY more efficient and more damage to Snipe+Light+Poison Injection. Then, assuming they are still alive, MAYBE use another snipe.

And please stop complaining about Bow. In 1.5 ganking is still more effective to do using magicka based melee. While still being able to cast class defensives along with heals.

2h in 1.5, that may be a game changer though. From my limited testing it's looking quite deadly.