I find the "nerf-herder" attempts to justify their complaints more amusing than daunting. The same old, tired excuses from the same old, tired mentalities which, in the end, turn every single MMO I've ever seen into the same old, tired WoW clone.

It would be so refreshing if you folks would simply go back to playing WoW and leave my beloved Tamriel alone. Alas, that didn't happen with my beloved Hyboria or my beloved SWTOR galaxy.

In the end, every MMO touched by these juvenile cry-babies ends up being WoW....with a different name, genre and graphics.

Easy

There is no need to harsh someone with a different view.

Given the zerg trains I see in pvp most days there are a lot of "leet" pvp'ers that just mindlessly fight and res, moan about camps, or attack stuff when leader has told them not to.

So "advanced" ? maybe a little too much.

Now, I do agree pvp can be far tougher than pve in certain situations. However it's not an elite alternative. Just differnt

I find it quite funny that people think that PVP balance nerfs can drive the game towards PVE balance (whatever that means) or that people that mainly pve are not concerned about OP abilities. The truth is that most PVP related nerfs have been just for pvp balance had a detrimental or no effect on pve.The most popular demands for nerfs are also completely unrelated to pve balance.
Some examples.
-Death stroke sneak attack bonus removal. You could one shot any single basic trash mob with a overcharged ultimate from stealth and do some good damage to delve bosses. Yes terribly OP in pve.
-Annulment changes-In truth this one still functions for almost everything one used it before the changes in PVE. It is however absurd to say that these changes had anything to do with pve balance or that it was in any way OP before the changes in pve.
-The constant demand for armor actives at 5 piece. This one make absolutely no sense coming from a pve standpoint. (or pvp for that matter)
-Two of the most hated DK spells huge nerf cry generators-Reflective Scales and GDB. Absolutely nothing OP about them in PVE.
-Bolt Escape- Who really give a damn how fast and often can these guys zip around in PVE.Don't give me some BS about them farming nodes because there are plenty of ways to do that fast anyway and it isn't like there is now a shortage of freaking nodes.
-The super fast stealth-What was the effect for PVE again?
-The PTS Snipe - I certainly think it needs a nerf for PVP . For PVE it is almost just right.
-The PTS Nerf to impulse- It actually doesn't do anything to PVE damage output if you actually know how to use it. In my opinion the old impulse needed a 15-20% reduction in damage at the same range for pve. The nerf was done strictly for pvp reasons.

Tapio75 wrote: »

Because PVP players seem like a lot that comes to complain about imbalance when they just need to learn to play. Those who know how to PVP or accept that they cant be as good as others rarely come to complain about people not knowing how to play, they just point it out in occasion..

Some of PVP lot seem also think that game mechanics are there for them alone and do not much care about PVE at all, they might think they are better somehow when they can kick arse in PVP and are just not happy when their own arse gets kicked ^^

L2P is a real issue :P.

Half the time they dont even understand what actually is the problem and what exactly got them killed , but now more than ever with death damage history , people will turn at whatever gave them damage and complain about it.

Well to be fair , nobody likes dying and it is much easier to blame something else than agree you suck.

Akula wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I find it quite funny that people think that PVP balance nerfs can drive the game towards PVE balance (whatever that means) or that people that mainly pve are not concerned about OP abilities. The truth is that most PVP related nerfs have been just for pvp balance had a detrimental or no effect on pve.The most popular demands for nerfs are also completely unrelated to pve balance.
Some examples.
-Death stroke sneak attack bonus removal. You could one shot any single basic trash mob with a overcharged ultimate from stealth and do some good damage to delve bosses. Yes terribly OP in pve.
-Annulment changes-In truth this one still functions for almost everything one used it before the changes in PVE. It is however absurd to say that these changes had anything to do with pve balance or that it was in any way OP before the changes in pve.
-The constant demand for armor actives at 5 piece. This one make absolutely no sense coming from a pve standpoint. (or pvp for that matter)
-Two of the most hated DK spells huge nerf cry generators-Reflective Scales and GDB. Absolutely nothing OP about them in PVE.
-Bolt Escape- Who really give a damn how fast and often can these guys zip around in PVE.Don't give me some BS about them farming nodes because there are plenty of ways to do that fast anyway and it isn't like there is now a shortage of freaking nodes.
-The super fast stealth-What was the effect for PVE again?
-The PTS Snipe - I certainly think it needs a nerf for PVP . For PVE it is almost just right.
-The PTS Nerf to impulse- It actually doesn't do anything to PVE damage output if you actually know how to use it. In my opinion the old impulse needed a 15-20% reduction in damage at the same range for pve. The nerf was done strictly for pvp reasons.

So you list a bunch of changes that dont affect PVE or are ones that you agree with? What exactly was your point?

But they do affect pve.
Death stroke sneak attack bonus removal -meant I will never actually put this on a bar for pve again.
Any changes they might make to DGB or Reflective Scales will have huge impacts to PVE DKs.
I will not point out how the other things affect pve since I hope that people are mentally equipped to get a point without it being painfully spelled out.

PvP balance nerfs will either affect PVE or not and they will effects mostly be in a bad way since the nerfs were not made with pve in mind.

Any change,even those that have minimal effect on the gameplay will always be a big hit to players enjoyment since that is how humans work.These constant nerfs and the common PVE/PVP skill set will cost them a lot of subs in the long run.

In the end, quest for PVP balance is futile and never ending. PVP balance can not be achieved unless all PVP players are given the exact same abilities and passives, weapons and armor plus all equipment and then, game would be boring.

Even when tried the WOW way when avilities looked different but were really quite the same, the game went boring as hell as "balance" made all classes stale and similar.

There has to be variety in class abilities and there will always be better builds than other. Players tend to use the best build or complain that the best build is OP.

People just have to accept that either they choose to play the best build if they want to be best and also have skills to be best or accept thsat they can not overcome every enemy by themselves.

Sekking balance is again, unending and pointless circle that will only lead to frustration and bitterness.

Gythral wrote: »

Seems the the average PvPer does not have a clue what a joke is!!!

I dont know why you are surprised. Didnt you just say they failed the literacy tests. :P

MornaBaine wrote: »

bedlom wrote: »

PvP is always the downfall of any good mmorpg in my experience.

Not that I don't enjoy it, just the constant crys for balance in the end ruin both pvp and pve.

QFT. I've seen it happen in just about every MMO out there. I love the IDEA of PvP but the actual experience of it has always been a letdown. I think this is because it primarily attracts the very worst kinds of people. I long for RP PvP wherein groups "go to war" over RP reasons/objectives and create builds consistent with who their characters are rather than just hitting teh interwebs to identify the most "uber" build so they can "own." Alas, I have come to the conclusion that this game will never exist. I had SOME small hope for it when ZoS promised us an RP server/instance choice but since they reneged on that and totally frakked us over I have pretty much completely given up on PvP...or ever having a game that takes RP even remotely into consideration.

MMOs used to be that way. At some point, developers realized that a majority of players want a chance to kill at least one person regardless if they are terrible, solo or in a cooperative group. To do so, they up dps to the point that in many cases the winner is whoever saw the other person first. They also remove previously staple abilities that make cooperative groups stronger. No real guard mechanic for tanks to compensate lower dps, no innate frailty or interruptibility of casters, and often no need for heal debuffs or the like to take down a person being healed. No more trinity or archetype roles.

In other words, MMOs now cater to the push-one-button-and-win type of crowd you find in fps games, and eviscerated the each-class/build-fills-a-role mechanic of games like DAoC. ESO is less guilty of that than many games, but not by a whole lot.

PBpsy wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I find it quite funny that people think that PVP balance nerfs can drive the game towards PVE balance (whatever that means) or that people that mainly pve are not concerned about OP abilities. The truth is that most PVP related nerfs have been just for pvp balance had a detrimental or no effect on pve.The most popular demands for nerfs are also completely unrelated to pve balance.
Some examples.
-Death stroke sneak attack bonus removal. You could one shot any single basic trash mob with a overcharged ultimate from stealth and do some good damage to delve bosses. Yes terribly OP in pve.
-Annulment changes-In truth this one still functions for almost everything one used it before the changes in PVE. It is however absurd to say that these changes had anything to do with pve balance or that it was in any way OP before the changes in pve.
-The constant demand for armor actives at 5 piece. This one make absolutely no sense coming from a pve standpoint. (or pvp for that matter)
-Two of the most hated DK spells huge nerf cry generators-Reflective Scales and GDB. Absolutely nothing OP about them in PVE.
-Bolt Escape- Who really give a damn how fast and often can these guys zip around in PVE.Don't give me some BS about them farming nodes because there are plenty of ways to do that fast anyway and it isn't like there is now a shortage of freaking nodes.
-The super fast stealth-What was the effect for PVE again?
-The PTS Snipe - I certainly think it needs a nerf for PVP . For PVE it is almost just right.
-The PTS Nerf to impulse- It actually doesn't do anything to PVE damage output if you actually know how to use it. In my opinion the old impulse needed a 15-20% reduction in damage at the same range for pve. The nerf was done strictly for pvp reasons.

So you list a bunch of changes that dont affect PVE or are ones that you agree with? What exactly was your point?

But they do affect pve.
Death stroke sneak attack bonus removal -meant I will never actually put this on a bar for pve again.
Any changes they might make to DGB or Reflective Scales will have huge impacts to PVE DKs.
I will not point out how the other things affect pve since I hope that people are mentally equipped to get a point without it being painfully spelled out.

PvP balance nerfs will either affect PVE or not and they will effects mostly be in a bad way since the nerfs were not made with pve in mind.

Any change,even those that have minimal effect on the gameplay will always be a big hit to players enjoyment since that is how humans work.These constant nerfs and the common PVE/PVP skill set will cost them a lot of subs in the long run.

So then they were also OP in PVE?

Your argument is all over the place. Get your thoughts together and come back with something that not so nonsensical.

Because if PVP dies the game does.

PS: EVERY SINGLE MMORPG that has both pve and pvp has this same issue. It comes with the genre.

PBpsy wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I find it quite funny that people think that PVP balance nerfs can drive the game towards PVE balance (whatever that means) or that people that mainly pve are not concerned about OP abilities. The truth is that most PVP related nerfs have been just for pvp balance had a detrimental or no effect on pve.The most popular demands for nerfs are also completely unrelated to pve balance.
Some examples.
-Death stroke sneak attack bonus removal. You could one shot any single basic trash mob with a overcharged ultimate from stealth and do some good damage to delve bosses. Yes terribly OP in pve.
-Annulment changes-In truth this one still functions for almost everything one used it before the changes in PVE. It is however absurd to say that these changes had anything to do with pve balance or that it was in any way OP before the changes in pve.
-The constant demand for armor actives at 5 piece. This one make absolutely no sense coming from a pve standpoint. (or pvp for that matter)
-Two of the most hated DK spells huge nerf cry generators-Reflective Scales and GDB. Absolutely nothing OP about them in PVE.
-Bolt Escape- Who really give a damn how fast and often can these guys zip around in PVE.Don't give me some BS about them farming nodes because there are plenty of ways to do that fast anyway and it isn't like there is now a shortage of freaking nodes.
-The super fast stealth-What was the effect for PVE again?
-The PTS Snipe - I certainly think it needs a nerf for PVP . For PVE it is almost just right.
-The PTS Nerf to impulse- It actually doesn't do anything to PVE damage output if you actually know how to use it. In my opinion the old impulse needed a 15-20% reduction in damage at the same range for pve. The nerf was done strictly for pvp reasons.

So you list a bunch of changes that dont affect PVE or are ones that you agree with? What exactly was your point?

But they do affect pve.
Death stroke sneak attack bonus removal -meant I will never actually put this on a bar for pve again.
Any changes they might make to DGB or Reflective Scales will have huge impacts to PVE DKs.
I will not point out how the other things affect pve since I hope that people are mentally equipped to get a point without it being painfully spelled out.

PvP balance nerfs will either affect PVE or not and they will effects mostly be in a bad way since the nerfs were not made with pve in mind.

Any change,even those that have minimal effect on the gameplay will always be a big hit to players enjoyment since that is how humans work.These constant nerfs and the common PVE/PVP skill set will cost them a lot of subs in the long run.

So then they were also OP in PVE?

Your argument is all over the place. Get your thoughts together and come back with something that not so nonsensical.

I don't know if I should bother with you since you appear unable to comprehend simple English or are being intentionally dense.I am sorry if you are unable to follow more than one idea at a time but will not bother to draw you a freaking diagram.

"So then they were also OP in PVE?"
No they were or are effective, useful or at the least functional.
Death stroke - It was useful for something and worth the ultimate slot in some PVE builds. After the nerf it is simply a pvp skill. In pve you can do better with most basic DD skills.

GDB or Reflective Scales- These are two of the skills that receive the most amount of complaints from pvp. They are effective and useful skills for PVE DK and anyone with an ounce of honesty will admit they are not OP for their pve role if they actually take the time to play a DK for a sufficient amount of time. Since they are effective and functional non OP skills in pve any change in power or functionality will be unfair and frustrating for any pve DK. I think it is not that hard to see why.

These are only two examples of skills where PVP balance can mean complete change in functionality of perfectly fine skills for PVE. This is why the skill balance should be either separate for PVP/PVE or much more incremental and less haphazard than ZOS currently does it.

So then they are actually non issues then. You're doing nothing but dodging and weaving.

Akula wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I find it quite funny that people think that PVP balance nerfs can drive the game towards PVE balance (whatever that means) or that people that mainly pve are not concerned about OP abilities. The truth is that most PVP related nerfs have been just for pvp balance had a detrimental or no effect on pve.The most popular demands for nerfs are also completely unrelated to pve balance.
Some examples.
-Death stroke sneak attack bonus removal. You could one shot any single basic trash mob with a overcharged ultimate from stealth and do some good damage to delve bosses. Yes terribly OP in pve.
-Annulment changes-In truth this one still functions for almost everything one used it before the changes in PVE. It is however absurd to say that these changes had anything to do with pve balance or that it was in any way OP before the changes in pve.
-The constant demand for armor actives at 5 piece. This one make absolutely no sense coming from a pve standpoint. (or pvp for that matter)
-Two of the most hated DK spells huge nerf cry generators-Reflective Scales and GDB. Absolutely nothing OP about them in PVE.
-Bolt Escape- Who really give a damn how fast and often can these guys zip around in PVE.Don't give me some BS about them farming nodes because there are plenty of ways to do that fast anyway and it isn't like there is now a shortage of freaking nodes.
-The super fast stealth-What was the effect for PVE again?
-The PTS Snipe - I certainly think it needs a nerf for PVP . For PVE it is almost just right.
-The PTS Nerf to impulse- It actually doesn't do anything to PVE damage output if you actually know how to use it. In my opinion the old impulse needed a 15-20% reduction in damage at the same range for pve. The nerf was done strictly for pvp reasons.

So you list a bunch of changes that dont affect PVE or are ones that you agree with? What exactly was your point?

But they do affect pve.
Death stroke sneak attack bonus removal -meant I will never actually put this on a bar for pve again.
Any changes they might make to DGB or Reflective Scales will have huge impacts to PVE DKs.
I will not point out how the other things affect pve since I hope that people are mentally equipped to get a point without it being painfully spelled out.

PvP balance nerfs will either affect PVE or not and they will effects mostly be in a bad way since the nerfs were not made with pve in mind.

Any change,even those that have minimal effect on the gameplay will always be a big hit to players enjoyment since that is how humans work.These constant nerfs and the common PVE/PVP skill set will cost them a lot of subs in the long run.

So then they were also OP in PVE?

Your argument is all over the place. Get your thoughts together and come back with something that not so nonsensical.

I don't know if I should bother with you since you appear unable to comprehend simple English or are being intentionally dense.I am sorry if you are unable to follow more than one idea at a time but will not bother to draw you a freaking diagram.

"So then they were also OP in PVE?"
No they were or are effective, useful or at the least functional.
Death stroke - It was useful for something and worth the ultimate slot in some PVE builds. After the nerf it is simply a pvp skill. In pve you can do better with most basic DD skills.

GDB or Reflective Scales- These are two of the skills that receive the most amount of complaints from pvp. They are effective and useful skills for PVE DK and anyone with an ounce of honesty will admit they are not OP for their pve role if they actually take the time to play a DK for a sufficient amount of time. Since they are effective and functional non OP skills in pve any change in power or functionality will be unfair and frustrating for any pve DK. I think it is not that hard to see why.

These are only two examples of skills where PVP balance can mean complete change in functionality of perfectly fine skills for PVE. This is why the skill balance should be either separate for PVP/PVE or much more incremental and less haphazard than ZOS currently does it.

So then they are actually non issues then. You're doing nothing but dodging and weaving.

Gythral wrote: »

The bit that gets me is that many of the PvPers think themselves 'superior' but fail basic literacy tests.

Learn to read - guys

Indeed.

Because PvErs get content, we get skills.

Well first of all, there are plenty of changes that happen due to PvE, so I'm not sure why you are spouting such a fallacy.

Secondly, PvP is much more competitive than PvE, so class imbalances get noticed much easier. Specific skills that are too powerful or not powerful enough are also much easier to notice in PvP.

Thirdly, I am sick and tired of PvE players whining because a game is being balanced. I am sorry that your favorite build got balanced, but balancing is done for the good of the game. If you can't look at balancing from an objective standpoint, and instead only care about the class/spec you play, then please don't share your opinion on it.

I spend a lot of my time playing with sword/shield and resto staff, and although I haven't used light armor in awhile, I used to.

I didn't shed one tear when resto staff lost its 10% damage, or when Light armor lost some spell pen, or when annulment was changed. Even though all those things hurt my build, it is very clear that those changes help balance the game overall, so I was fine with them.

It sounds to me that you are simply upset that your build got nerfed, and are just blaming PvP because you dislike it.