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A new (another) take on... cloaks

DaniAngione
DaniAngione
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Hey there, everyone :) it's me again with another wall of text. Lol, just kidding, I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

Anyway... Cloaks. Yes, I'm aware they've been discussed already... a lot. But we've got some "new info" on them that is different from past explanations and something must be said...

(got this from the Guild Summit summary in Tamriel Foundry)

"Why no cloaks?

Cloaks are cool, but they are an artistic challenge to have them move, reflect light, and match the overall aesthetic quality of the rest of the game’s equipment. Adding cloaks which moved naturally would be incompatible with having a high number of character models on screen at a given time."

OOOOOH, come on, Zenimax! I mean... don't get me wrong, love the game and its art but... "painted" armor, low res textures... All of these are still issues and quality standards are your excuse? :P
I understand that the proper way would be a realistic cloth simulation like Assassin's Creed does, for example... and that would hit us hard in Cyrodiil, but there are plenty of options... make it so that only our own cloaks are rendered in real time, or the ones close to us, or none... anyway, make good fixed animations and give us options from "all real time cloth simulated" to "none" :P that is *not* impossible.

Anyway, now that this is out of the way... *ahem*... on with the post.
First of all: Why cloaks?
Well, cloaks are present on most of the loading screens artworks :P they're fairly common across history, lore-friendly if done right and useful enough for the people of tamriel to have invented it. Please, note... I'm talking about realistic, plain/fur/hide cloaks, not shiny and colorful skateboards people hang on their backs on some other games.

So, gameplay-wise, why should we have cloaks?
First off, they should be completely cosmetic. Some people seem to dislike them and giving them stats would "enforce" their usage. So no stats, should be optional/cosmetic items.

And what should their importance be?
Well, let's think it like this:
Armor style shows off racial/cultural affinity.
Armor color shows off our achievements.
Tabards show off our guild(s)

So, for me... cloaks should be a way to show off our sense of belonging or, in other words, regional/factional affinity.

So, for me, each region, faction and NPC guild (including the upcoming Enforcer - here's a way to allow both enforcing and guild tabard!) should have a cloak. They shouldn't be colorful representations of their region but their style should be evidence enough, so... Skyrim regions would probably have thick pelts and furs while Alik'r would have thin, plain silk cloaks with facial covering for sandstorms and such... Some of high rock regions could have more knightly/european capes and such....

So, this is pretty much one of the few ways I can see cloaks being added in a beautiful, lore-friendly and non-obligatory way :)

As an extra, I'd like to also leave a suggestion that... well... it's extremely cosmetic, fluff and difficult but if it ever gets into the game I swear to Akatosh I'll sub for the rest of my days (lol): make cloaks "interact" with the environment. So, if playing for a while in a snowy region, or the desert, it gets dirty... maybe damped and muddy on swamps, litttle scorch marks on volcanic/fiery places, ragged over time on Cyrodiil, etc... seriously, this would be like... best MMO change ever :P extra points if our characters raise their hoods and cover their faces during snow storms/sand storms/rain/etc... ;)

That's it :D
Edited by DaniAngione on October 10, 2014 1:20PM
  • DaniAngione
    DaniAngione
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    In honor of the Campaign for Coming to the Point Directly, I'd just like to say this:

    I honestly see no reason (beyond selfishness and/or lack of alterity) for one to be against a lore-friendly, realistic and cosmetic addition that they don't have to use/be part of whatsoever.

    But no matter; honoring the same campaign, while you compared Pixar's superheroes to ESO, I'll just compare ESO to ESO:

    Bangkorai_load_screen.jpg

    The_Rift_(Online).jpg

    7.jpg

    and some others...


  • pmn100b16_ESO
    pmn100b16_ESO
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    In my experience of past MMOs cloaks = lag, particularly when lots are on screen. I can imagine Cryodiil grinding to a halt. Even if you could disable them, you'd still have loads of people continuing to wear them. No thanks.
    Edited by pmn100b16_ESO on October 10, 2014 1:25PM
  • adean27
    adean27
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    The explanation in regards to no capes is actually more in-depth than just the artistic side. They indicated it would cause also sorts of load issues and lag, as in order to construct a working cape within their current technology build would require it to have too much framework, which would cause all sorts of issues. They then went on to say that the only way to do it would be to make it so ugly and dysfunctional that it would be embarrassing to have in the game due to it's low quality.
    Shindig
    Director
    United Gaming Initiative
    www.unitedgaminginitiative.com
  • dan958
    dan958
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    In honor of the Campaign for Coming to the Point Directly, I'd just like to say this:

    I honestly see no reason (beyond selfishness and/or lack of alterity) for one to be against a lore-friendly, realistic and cosmetic addition that they don't have to use/be part of whatsoever.

    I don't mind features that I may never use being added, but I'd rather they didn't take priority over more important fixes/content.

    @dan958 - PC/EU - Dannuin - Nightblade - Bosmer - CP1048 - For the Queen!
  • adean27
    adean27
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    It's addressed at 1:17:00: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF9DAnxu3s0

    "We were doing anaylsis on the number of bones we could support while still having the number of people supported on screen that we currently have, and it was basically 2 that we could have in a cloak. And a cloak that has 2 bones doesn't look like what you want it to, it looks ridiculous. And we were just doing analysis of whats the amount of work it's going to take and how many players on screen, and what's the performance we're going to have to take as the result of that. And it was going to cost us too many players and too much performance, so we just made the decision to not do it."
    Shindig
    Director
    United Gaming Initiative
    www.unitedgaminginitiative.com
  • abigfishy
    abigfishy
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    Very, very simple solution and not even sure if I like it. Cloaks work in PvE but don't work in Cyrodill.
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  • AlexDougherty
    AlexDougherty
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    abigfishy wrote: »
    Very, very simple solution and not even sure if I like it. Cloaks work in PvE but don't work in Cyrodill.

    Better solution, let people have a cloak DLC, that way those of us who don't want to see them just don't get the DLC and can't see them.
    People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
    Wizard's first rule
    Passion rules reason
    Wizard's third rule
    Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
    Wizard's fifth rule
    Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
    Wizard's tenth rule
  • KhajitFurTrader
    KhajitFurTrader
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    Funny how I read that as:

    Better solution, let people have a cloak DLC, that way those of us who don't want to see them just get the DLC and can't see them.

    I blame it on three negatives in one sentence. But maybe I should just reign in my sarcasm filter a 'lil bit more, too many false positives. :wink:
    Edited by KhajitFurTrader on October 10, 2014 4:47PM
  • DaniAngione
    DaniAngione
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    Funny how I read that as:

    Better solution, let people have a cloak DLC, that way those of us who don't want to see them just get the DLC and can't see them.

    I blame it on three negatives in one sentence. But maybe I should just reign in my sarcasm filter a 'lil bit more, too many false positives. :wink:

    Now, that would be so evil that even I would be against the cloak DLC. Or the DLC that cloaks cloaks. Or whatever.

    Might as well add horse armor...

  • Ghettobird52
    The cloaks will cause lag? Lol?
  • AlexDougherty
    AlexDougherty
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    Funny how I read that as:

    Better solution, let people have a cloak DLC, that way those of us who don't want to see them just get the DLC and can't see them.

    I blame it on three negatives in one sentence. But maybe I should just reign in my sarcasm filter a 'lil bit more, too many false positives. :wink:

    Sorry, I probably could have written it clearer, but I was tired.
    People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
    Wizard's first rule
    Passion rules reason
    Wizard's third rule
    Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
    Wizard's fifth rule
    Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
    Wizard's tenth rule
  • bellanca6561n
    bellanca6561n
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    Yes, cloaks require articulated deformable meshes that are labor intensive to make and GPU intensive for renderers and shaders.

    And, as pmb noted, in crowded situations you need to demand that people in your group turn them off.

    Cell shading is the most efficient way to display cloaks but it wouldn't look right. But it's cheap and requires no texture maps. This is why so many less graphically sophisticated games have cloaks.

    My view is they need to catch up on a massive backlog of unanticipated tasks. As it is the deformable meshes for long hair still need work and we have clipping issues with hair and shields, among other things.
  • Woolenthreads
    Woolenthreads
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    Actually :) I think they can just satisfy everyone chasing them by telling us they're in the development system on a list :D. Then all the threads turn into "When is it coming?". Never mind that the timing on the list is set to 20 years in the future, when everyone's machine/connection might be able to handle it ;)
    Oooh look, lot's of Butterflies! Wait! Butterflies? Get out of here Sheo, stop bugging me!

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  • MikeBob
    MikeBob
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    Actually :) I think they can just satisfy everyone chasing them by telling us they're in the development system on a list :D. Then all the threads turn into "When is it coming?". Never mind that the timing on the list is set to 20 years in the future, when everyone's machine/connection might be able to handle it ;)

    Heh. I think this may be closer to what's actually going to happen (with many ideas) than you or I will ever know.

    There are a lot of things "yet to come" in ESO - some of these things we know about (because ZOS representatives have actually said 'we're working on it'), some of them we hope/ask for through feedback and here on the boards but don't know if they'll happen (because ZOS just hasn't said/won't say - maybe they haven't yet determined if they can or will implement them?), and maybe there are some things that neither we nor the team at ZOS are even thinking about right now (because in reality that's just the way things work out sometimes).

    There are also those 'Ace In The Hole' surprise items that, from a marketing standpoint, always seem to be a handy idea in the gaming industry - with the intention of keeping the playerbase guessing but interested (and paying, perhaps just to see What's Next).

    I'm personally not in favor of the cloak idea, myself - primarily for the reason given at the guild summit, but also because I want ESO to remain different, in some ways, from some of the other popular games I've played - and I don't mind this being one of those ways.

    There's no such thing as unlimited resources, ever, in game development. Some ideas just won't/wouldn't make for a good fit.
  • KingRebz
    KingRebz
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    In honor of the Campaign for Coming to the Point Directly, I'd just like to say this:

    I honestly see no reason (beyond selfishness and/or lack of alterity) for one to be against a lore-friendly, realistic and cosmetic addition that they don't have to use/be part of whatsoever.

    But no matter; honoring the same campaign, while you compared Pixar's superheroes to ESO, I'll just compare ESO to ESO:

    Bangkorai_load_screen.jpg

    The_Rift_(Online).jpg

    7.jpg

    and some others...


    Couldnt have said it better myself..just add it man..doesnt have to be the best in graphics just let us have it lol
    V14 Sorceror [Ebonheart]
  • KhajiitiLizard
    KhajiitiLizard
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    What about Khajiit and Argonians? Cloaks just don't work for them as the tail is an issue.
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