The over use of magic and its lore implications.

CapuchinSeven · September 2014

zdkazz wrote: »

yeah unfortunately this and the announcement of the senche tiger mount has caused me to unsub, its sad, but the game is no longer for me(its not a bad game its just not for me) Im back to playing mortal online and loving the gritty realism and true live action combat.

...you know that the tiger mounts are 100% true to lore, right?

AlexDougherty · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

yeah unfortunately this and the announcement of the senche tiger mount has caused me to unsub, its sad, but the game is no longer for me(its not a bad game its just not for me) Im back to playing mortal online and loving the gritty realism and true live action combat.

...you know that the tiger mounts are 100% true to lore, right?

Not quite, they existed true, but most of us would argue that lorewise they were Khajiit only mounts, and even then only for short periods, not as a permanent arrangement.

Rosveen · October 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

Too bad he never actually said that.

You can imagine a book in TES: VI "XXX" talking about the Emperor IchigoKusaraki_1337 that was killed by XXX_noob_XXX, who was five minutes disintegrated by Crazy_Khajit_007 which ruled for almost three minutes?

Because this is what we do in ESO, we are actually writing the lore for future TES games.

Thanks God it will never happen, because ESO isn't a true TES game, it's just an spin-off which took Nirn borrowed.

Cannons however are not canon (yeah I know, really bad pun).

As a matter of fact, cannons are canon.

Aeratus · October 2014

Rosveen wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

Too bad he never actually said that.

You can imagine a book in TES: VI "XXX" talking about the Emperor IchigoKusaraki_1337 that was killed by XXX_noob_XXX, who was five minutes disintegrated by Crazy_Khajit_007 which ruled for almost three minutes?

Because this is what we do in ESO, we are actually writing the lore for future TES games.

Thanks God it will never happen, because ESO isn't a true TES game, it's just an spin-off which took Nirn borrowed.

Cannons however are not canon (yeah I know, really bad pun).

As a matter of fact, cannons are canon.

I didn't believe this at first, but to my surprise, canons are indeed canon.

Inversus · October 2014

I see and tend to agree with what you're saying, but there wasn't really any way to avoid it.

blisstree · October 2014

In the original ES games, average people could use magic - if they could afford the scrolls. Speaking of which, the best magic from the ES games that SHOULD have been included but weren't were the levitation and slow fall potions/scrolls. Speaking of magic, the thing I really, really, really hate about the ESO system is that every frakkin mage knows the exact same spells. Because there are only like 10 or 12 spells that exist and they are ALL battle spells. The magic system in the real Elder Scrolls games is far superior and is what they should have gone for in this game, rather than just copy every other fantasy mmo game out there. Bethesda/Zenimax had the opportunity to create something truly special and unique, but instead they opted to just follow the pack.

blisstree · October 2014

Wyietsayon wrote: »

Last time I checked, a soulless being couldn't walk around just by the power of their own stamina. They probably need some kind of magic or divine help. As such, is it so strange that there are some many characters that use magic?

And as for lack of stamina builds: I dunno. Game mechanics. I mean, interrupts, blocking, and sneaking all drains only stamina. Just abilities drain magicka. Sounds pretty balanced. Maybe you can't make a full stamina-based build very easily, but I don't think you're supposed to. Otherwise they'd have combat stuff like blocking that drains magicka as well. Maybe it could use some more really good stamina abilities?

But of course, there are no other soulless persons other than you, the player. Because the entire story line is written as if only 1 hero exists. There is only ONE person foretold in the Elder Scrolls, or so the prophet contends. So why are there thousands of people, doing the same exact quests? In fact, why are there even guilds/groups? Since the storyline dictates otherwise, the game should be geared to agree with the storyline, no contravene it. The entire storyline of ESO makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, given the game mechanics. If they want to force everyone to guild/group then the storyline should have taken that into account.

blisstree · October 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

Too bad he never actually said that.

You can imagine a book in TES: VI "XXX" talking about the Emperor IchigoKusaraki_1337 that was killed by XXX_noob_XXX, who was five minutes disintegrated by Crazy_Khajit_007 which ruled for almost three minutes?

Because this is what we do in ESO, we are actually writing the lore for future TES games.

Thanks God it will never happen, because ESO isn't a true TES game, it's just an spin-off which took Nirn borrowed.

PVP (which is what the emperor title is part of) isn't canon.
PVE probably is canon, or at least some selection of the choices we make will be.
Player Names will never be canon, unless some dev see one he/she likes and writes it into a book in TES VI.
Alliances are now Canon.
Cannons however are not canon (yeah I know, really bad pun).

Sorry, but you're wrong. The timeline of ESO online actually happens BEFORE all other Elder Scrolls games. As far back as Daggerfall, Mannimarco is a lich, an undead, not a living altmer. Since, within the ESO storyline, Mannimarco is killed by the player then dragged into Oblivion for eternal punishment by the Daedric prince he betrays, how did he even become a lich? No, ESO screws up all canon and throws it out the window.

Not to mention the pacing just sucks. Since the original endgame is to confront and defeat a Daedric prince - the most powerful beings in the Elder Scrolls universe, how can they possibly explain the player having to go up against even tougher mobs in the expansions? The way it should have worked is that the endgame should have been taking out Mannimarco. Then next expansion would have been finding a way to to invade Coldharbor and the final expansion should have been to go up against Molag Bal. They destroy their own mythology with the way they chose to pace this game.

Elsterchen · October 2014

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Warning, there may be spoilers here since I will discuss issues of 'end game' storyline you may not wish to see. Look no further if you have not played to the end of the Main Quest. (Got the Spoiler hidden now).

1. Our characters are soul shriven, and apparently a daedric vestige.
Interestingly, it is Aedric power thanks to Akatosh and Varen Aquliarios that we are able to keep going and in a sense defy Molag Bal. Because of this, our characters have both strange daedric and aedric qualities. I do not find it odd that we run into ghosts quite often, simply because we are ourselves ghosts up until the 'end' of the main storyline. At the very end of the storyline, our characters become dragonborn. I hate to say it, but there it is. I've said it before, but having played 4 characters now through the end I'm fairly certain of this fact. We more or less share a soul with Varen, which is very reminiscent of things that happened with Talos, Alessia, and other figures. Our characters are demi-gods, and got through defeating Molag Bal for a time, if you can believe it. I have watched the conversations with Cadwell, Meridia, and Varen enough times to come to these conclusions.
On your next run through, please pay attention to everything they say at the end.

-> There is a book in the libary of dust giving a quite interesting explanation for the vestige-topic, due to alot of fighting going on while reading the book I do have trouble to recall the details (this book is not provided in the lore libary if I am correct). In sum it says that vestiges are a weapon created by nirn itself, in times of great need (that is when nirn is threatend). The book calls the vestiges differently it was writen by a mage who obviously belongend to some daedric affiliation and was alowed to observe how creatures are created in coldhabour. Remember the pools of shimmering liquid there? That was the essence of nirn -> moving/streaming/flowing to a secret place and there are the coldhabor creatures "born" by using a soul of someone who just died ... and in some rare cases without a soul as a weapon of nirn. It did explain alot, from nirn beeing used by molag bal to create his creatures and thereby molag bal opposing a real threat to nirn itself (because of misusing the very essence of life- perverting it in the process) to a very admirable explanation of the soul-less. The book is really interesting i would have loved to read it more often.

At the OPs topic, I do feel alot of things overused as many other ppl have stated already and some aspects of TES-lore are just neglegted all together - in my opinion those that added fun to roleplay, mainly.

I will wait and see what the next major update changes, as far as I understood the couse of this game is anyways not going to be directed at keeping people that care about TES, but at players (and their wifes) that like a WoW clone. i might be wrong, but unless we stay to see these changes we will never know. :-)

Aeratus · October 2014

blisstree wrote: »

Since, within the ESO storyline, Mannimarco is killed by the player then dragged into Oblivion for eternal punishment by the Daedric prince he betrays, how did he even become a lich?

Because I released him from Molag Bal's torment. And then Mannimarco went back to his normal course of business according to canon.

The use of Mannimarco was kinda cheap, but since he never actually dies in ESO, I guess it's technically consistent with canon.

Elf_Boy · October 2014

zdkazz wrote: »

Anvos wrote: »

Teleporting isn't a hard art if your destination is nearby or you have a focus site as your destination such as a temple or wayshrine.

Using daggerfall isn't really the most reliable source considering its age and I don't remember anything that hostile towards usage of magic in Morrowind or Oblivion and I played through them as spell swords.

Pelinal was a demigod so using him as an example is bad and Talos only won over the Dominion because he abused Numidian.

Also I'm fairly sure its been stated in the past that most professional armies try and include at least 1 spell sword or battle mage in every squad.

in morrowind there is alot of magic that the player can use, but the enemies however were not all amgic based, average dunmer did not cast spells, a warror was a warrior, a mage was a mage and there were a few warrior mages, thats it .

on top of that a telivani three hunderd years from now will spend his entire life trying to learn and teach the mark and recall spells for teleporting, something which apperently an average joe in eso's time knew and mastered.

Um in Morrowind ALL Dunmer could summon the ghost of an ancestor to defend them 1/d.

I see this world having a parallel to our own. Everyone knows what physics is, everyone just about uses some for a physics every day, batteries, lights, computers, etc. Only a few small percents of the population truly understand things like quantum entanglement and string theory. Only a few can design motherboards and build super colliders.

The equivalent of just about everyone knowing spells for finding lost keys, spicing dinner, polishing the staff, etc. Being a Mage means taking that a step up and being able to use magic on a much higher scale.

Anyhow, IMHO!

Circuitous · October 2014

blisstree wrote: »

In the original ES games, average people could use magic - if they could afford the scrolls. Speaking of which, the best magic from the ES games that SHOULD have been included but weren't were the levitation and slow fall potions/scrolls. Speaking of magic, the thing I really, really, really hate about the ESO system is that every frakkin mage knows the exact same spells. Because there are only like 10 or 12 spells that exist and they are ALL battle spells. The magic system in the real Elder Scrolls games is far superior and is what they should have gone for in this game, rather than just copy every other fantasy mmo game out there. Bethesda/Zenimax had the opportunity to create something truly special and unique, but instead they opted to just follow the pack.

A few things.

Average people of most races couldn't just up and use magic, you're right. But elves, Bretons, and anyone who put in the effort could use basic magic. Furthermore, every living being has magicka in them except for a very rare few - there's nothing stopping most people from using spells aside from simply not wanting to bother.

Now, as is established in ESO's lore (and as is consistent with existing lore), magickal schools as we know them in other games haven't been formed yet. Again, ESO takes place well before any other game in the series. Despite the existence of a mages guild, learning spells is haphazard and often involves a great deal of research. The spells everyone can use, well, you could consider them to be "innate" spells that people just seem to know. Spells woven into the tapestry of the world (by game designers). Or you could handwave it as being a purely mechanical thing, until such time as spellcrafting comes about and we get more options.

blisstree wrote: »

Wyietsayon wrote: »

Last time I checked, a soulless being couldn't walk around just by the power of their own stamina. They probably need some kind of magic or divine help. As such, is it so strange that there are some many characters that use magic?

And as for lack of stamina builds: I dunno. Game mechanics. I mean, interrupts, blocking, and sneaking all drains only stamina. Just abilities drain magicka. Sounds pretty balanced. Maybe you can't make a full stamina-based build very easily, but I don't think you're supposed to. Otherwise they'd have combat stuff like blocking that drains magicka as well. Maybe it could use some more really good stamina abilities?

But of course, there are no other soulless persons other than you, the player. Because the entire story line is written as if only 1 hero exists. There is only ONE person foretold in the Elder Scrolls, or so the prophet contends. So why are there thousands of people, doing the same exact quests? In fact, why are there even guilds/groups? Since the storyline dictates otherwise, the game should be geared to agree with the storyline, no contravene it. The entire storyline of ESO makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, given the game mechanics. If they want to force everyone to guild/group then the storyline should have taken that into account.

Story line quests and the plots of MMOs generally revolve around the one player being special. This isn't something new ESO tried and failed at, this is a staple of the genre and, off-hand, I don't know of any MMO that doesn't do it. The other players you see are just adventurers, doing their own thing, possibly aiding you on your quest, but they're not the vestige.

blisstree wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

Too bad he never actually said that.

You can imagine a book in TES: VI "XXX" talking about the Emperor IchigoKusaraki_1337 that was killed by XXX_noob_XXX, who was five minutes disintegrated by Crazy_Khajit_007 which ruled for almost three minutes?

Because this is what we do in ESO, we are actually writing the lore for future TES games.

Thanks God it will never happen, because ESO isn't a true TES game, it's just an spin-off which took Nirn borrowed.

PVP (which is what the emperor title is part of) isn't canon.
PVE probably is canon, or at least some selection of the choices we make will be.
Player Names will never be canon, unless some dev see one he/she likes and writes it into a book in TES VI.
Alliances are now Canon.
Cannons however are not canon (yeah I know, really bad pun).

Sorry, but you're wrong. The timeline of ESO online actually happens BEFORE all other Elder Scrolls games. As far back as Daggerfall, Mannimarco is a lich, an undead, not a living altmer. Since, within the ESO storyline, Mannimarco is killed by the player then dragged into Oblivion for eternal punishment by the Daedric prince he betrays, how did he even become a lich? No, ESO screws up all canon and throws it out the window.

Not to mention the pacing just sucks. Since the original endgame is to confront and defeat a Daedric prince - the most powerful beings in the Elder Scrolls universe, how can they possibly explain the player having to go up against even tougher mobs in the expansions? The way it should have worked is that the endgame should have been taking out Mannimarco. Then next expansion would have been finding a way to to invade Coldharbor and the final expansion should have been to go up against Molag Bal. They destroy their own mythology with the way they chose to pace this game.

As someone else said, you're given the option to free Mannimarco. As we can deduce, from him being active in later games, he is either set free by the Vestige, or finds a way to free himself. In either case, ESO's plot does not contradict that which happens eight hundred years in the future. (Also, he's totally shown as a living Altmer in Oblivion, just for the record.)

Furthermore, and spoilers ahead, you take out Molag Bal not because he's weak, but because you're given the blessing of Akatosh to do so. Did you forget about that? The glowing armor that made you do about 1,000x more damage? It was kind of a big deal.

It's not like Molag Bal is dead, either. Like all Daedra his physical form will be recreated. Hell, I'm doing Dolmens now after his defeat, and he still taunts me (with new lines mentioning the events of the end of the storyline).

Basically, ESO hasn't altered the timeline or overall plot any more than any other game in the series. Adhering too rigorously to what you think is the canon of the Elder Scrolls universe (a universe wherein items and people exist that can rewrite history within the canon) is only going to make you sad.

Varicite · October 2014

I was always under the impression that magic itself is not at all a rarity in the ES universe, and that those who have magical abilities are generally accepted, except by those who simply distrust magic.

In most games, however, the general populous is a bit distrusting of the Mage's Guild organization.

Mages themselves, however, are pretty much a dime a dozen and you find them pretty much everywhere.

Marthenil · October 2014

@circuitous this guy gets it.

Not to mention how canon lore is handled by Bethesda (most of it being things recounted by authors of varying credibility).

OT: ES Is full of magic, period. Everything is magic. The world is magic.
The races are mostly magic. Magic is simply everywhere.

The comparison to math or physics is a bit weak.
I would compare magic to weight lifting as it's something that is natural within people. Everyone can lift groceries, not everyone is an Olympic weight lifter.

MornaBaine · October 2014

While we're playing my husband or I will often say, "Oh look, it's a ghost... wonder what he/she wants me to do for them?" Or, "Gosh wonder what this person is dreaming...bet I get to find out!" And those damn mages that are forever healing your opponents? Man I hate them! And you find them everywhere, hanging out with lowlife bandits even! OF COURSE we, the players, have access to powerful magicks, we're the freakin' heroes! But there are WAY TOO MANY NPCs with magickal abilities. So when you do come up against someone wielding some kick-arse magicka you're like... *shrug* So I certainly agree with the OP to a certain extent. Magic is just wayyyy overdone in this game. With the end result that we mages just don't feel SPECIAL anymore!

AlexDougherty · October 2014

Aeratus wrote: »

blisstree wrote: »

Since, within the ESO storyline, Mannimarco is killed by the player then dragged into Oblivion for eternal punishment by the Daedric prince he betrays, how did he even become a lich?

Because I released him from Molag Bal's torment. And then Mannimarco went back to his normal course of business according to canon.

The use of Mannimarco was kinda cheap, but since he never actually dies in ESO, I guess it's technically consistent with canon.

This, the canon story will be that the hero released Mannimarco for some unexplicable reason. As I said some version of the choices we have will be canon, even if we ourselves don't do them.