The over use of magic and its lore implications.

Wyietsayon

Last time I checked, a soulless being couldn't walk around just by the power of their own stamina. They probably need some kind of magic or divine help. As such, is it so strange that there are some many characters that use magic?

And as for lack of stamina builds: I dunno. Game mechanics. I mean, interrupts, blocking, and sneaking all drains only stamina. Just abilities drain magicka. Sounds pretty balanced. Maybe you can't make a full stamina-based build very easily, but I don't think you're supposed to. Otherwise they'd have combat stuff like blocking that drains magicka as well. Maybe it could use some more really good stamina abilities?

pirate3

Wyietsayon wrote: »

Anyone noticed that, even though there's a 1000 year difference between ESO and Skyrim, technology has stayed the same? I'm not wanting a sci-fi elder scrolls game or anything, but without that advancement in tech, it doesn't feel like the world has advanced at all.

True, but the forward march of technology can be broken by social upheaval. For example, the material culture of dark age Britain was in many respects inferior to that of the Roman period. We live in an age of rapid technological advancement and change, but this is not typical of human history.
How much of this is applicable to a fantasy world like Tamriel? Well, none of it really. It's a made up world designed for gaming in. It needs a reasonable amount of consistency to suspend disbelief, but its primary purpose is to provide a fun environment for its players. I do sympathise with the OP - I would much, much rather play in a darker Tamriel without 'excessive magic', tiger mounts, wraith pets etc - but this is what MMOs are about to many people and their money is as good as mine.

Two-Dogs

pirate3 wrote: »

Wyietsayon wrote: »

Anyone noticed that, even though there's a 1000 year difference between ESO and Skyrim, technology has stayed the same? I'm not wanting a sci-fi elder scrolls game or anything, but without that advancement in tech, it doesn't feel like the world has advanced at all.

True, but the..

And we can also factor in 'magic'. When so many problems can be solved with magic, there's little incentive for technological innovation.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

zdkazz wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

There's two problems with this from a functional standpoint. One everyone is THE hero of their story, so they would have access to high magic just like any TES hero.

Two, TES has always been ridiculously high magic. At least from Morrowind on. I can't speak for Arena and Daggerfall and the side games, which I know you played.

I disagree with this aswell, mages have always been regarded with suspicion from daggerfall and up.

Really. Have you examples? I'm no Morrowind or Oblivion expert but my lead in Skyrim is basically the head of everything and being the Arch Mage never resulted in anything other than admiration. It's true the people of Winterhold were traumatized by losing a big chunk of their city and having the mages citadel remain. That's just the locals though.

Nox_Aeterna

Leaving the players aside , since the players could always become mages without an issue.

I dont think the world here overused mages actually , it is just that there are tons more enemies than your normal TES game.

In a TES game a fight 3x1 is not that common , usually you can go around 1x1 and 2x1 most of the time , in ESO 3x1 is quite common and happens all the time and the game goes far above that often also.

So yes , there are tons of mages at every corner in this game , just like there is everything else in high numbers.

Istyar

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

Chuggernaut

Wyietsayon wrote: »

Anyone noticed that, even though there's a 1000 year difference between ESO and Skyrim, technology has stayed the same?

OFF TOPIC START ////
This is what I absolutely hated about SWTOR. In KOTOR I & II they actually made an effort to not look like the movies (minus the jedi), but in SWTOR, the republic commandos look just like heavy storm/clone troopers. Same was true for the other template classes.
/// OFF TOPIC END

That being said, I think lore wise some major stuff goes down in the time between ESO and Skyrim so maybe thats why the tech didn't get to advance.

PBpsy

Wyietsayon wrote: »

Anyone noticed that, even though there's a 1000 year difference between ESO and Skyrim, technology has stayed the same? I'm not wanting a sci-fi elder scrolls game or anything, but without that advancement in tech, it doesn't feel like the world has advanced at all.

Herbalism/non-magic medicine hasn't grown in the games from what we can see. Still using the same type of crossbows in both extreme times. I think horse-drawn buggies actually got worse. In Eso they're actual buggies, but in skyrim, just carts.

As for portals, yeah, soulburst is a good explanation. But ESO aside, portal technology went from somewhat plentiful in Morrowind, to one or two times in oblivion, then none in Skyrim. Sure, Skyrim too place both in a time and place where magic was taboo, but still it feels odd. Almost like we're losing more magic than we are learning.

But I think there is advancement in magical theory in the games. Mostly by the division of schools of magic. In eso, there hasn't been specific magical schools yet, just vague terms like dark magic and lightning. But the schools get defined and refined as the games go along. So yay pointless organizing advancement?

ALso dwarven tech: In eso we've learned to deconstruct and make dwarven spiders follow us around and do tricks. Yet in Skyrim we're still trying to understand them, for some reason.

So in summary, be glad they at least have the soulburst to explain some of this. Cause there's plenty of lore unexplained.

If we look at human history the lack of advancement in 1000 year span is not that strange.For example there was not a great deal of technological advancement from 0CE to 1000CE. There have even been periods or localized regress. I would say the fast general development we had in the last 2,3 hundred years was the more unexpected occurrence and I wouldn't be surprised if it will be followed by a long period of relative stagnation or regress.

Tekalynn

About portals: I thought it was pretty clear from one of the lorebooks that "regular" people (ie NPCs) are unable to use wayshrines to teleport. We (PCs) can use them as a side effect of Vestige-ism. My head canon is that most of us are invisible to the NPCs and that they have no idea that we're bopping in and out of different countries like there's no tomorrow.

Then it occurred to me, oh yeah, we have actual portals called "portals" in the game. Even so, very few NPC characters have the ability to construct or use them, and those who do are generally high-ranking in a guild or magically gifted.

Istyar

pirate3 wrote: »

Wyietsayon wrote: »

Anyone noticed that, even though there's a 1000 year difference between ESO and Skyrim, technology has stayed the same? I'm not wanting a sci-fi elder scrolls game or anything, but without that advancement in tech, it doesn't feel like the world has advanced at all.

Actually, if you look to Arcane Schools of Magic, it evolved a lot... You have to understand that Nirn is a place where MAGIC exist, why do they need machines or cars if they can teleport? There's a lot of things that you have to consider before talking about "technology" advancement in TES games.

crislevin

What I felt is that you just want more nerf on spells, under variety of disguises.

AlexDougherty

zdkazz wrote: »

Ok i am going to say this right away, this is a tad bit of a rage thread, I love this game, I will play it till the end of days and will defend it with my honor as a gamer. That being said I would like to discuss the overuse of magic in the elder scrolls online.

so we have all(most of us ) played an elder scrolls game, they are amazing, a mixture of medieval warfare and sorcery, but the use of magic is the be all end all of eso, im not talking about mana vs stamina builds Im talking about the actual use of magica. In eso everyone knows how to use magica and cast spells, everyone and I guess this is fine as you dont want to limit some players to having magica and not allow others to. That being said it ruins the world and the mystery of magic, in previous elder scrolls games mages are feared because they are few and there ways and powers are not know to the general world.

mages were few and powerful, they were the ones who stood out above the rest because they were able to harness the power of Atherius and use it like a tool. Mages were feared in skyrim, guards would comment, people refused to work with you and people like Falion in skyrim are accused of necromancy the spreading of diseases and other foul things even though they had nothing to do with it. Novels like the "the black arts on trials"(http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial) show the prosecution of mages by the hands of there own and others due to fear of what one group might do to another, fear of magic. But here in eso, all the players( and most of the population of tamriel) know magic, can cast with no training, and can instantly teliport themselves across the continent at a simple wave of there hands, how ridiculous would it have been if every man woman and child in skyrim had been a dragonborn? the entire population of Skyrim hates and fears mages, because there ways and powers are unkown.

and its not just the players, the stories revolve around magic, it is the explanation for everything in eso. On top of that even creatures and average grunts and bandits cast spells. A FREAKING NIX HOUND KNOWS MASTER LVL MYSTICISM AND CAN TELEPORT STRIKE YOU, and they have brains the size of acorns.(acording to a resercherr in morrowind idk his name ill look for the link) every creature can do magic, every single one, what happened to the average bandit or grunt that just held a sword and tried his damnedest to bash your brains in with it?

This changes the entire world that has been crafted since 1994, a dark gritty realistic medieval world, where magic was a thing that was only acquired by those who worked or had a natural talent. What this does to the world of tamriel is makes it light hearted, less gritty, and steals some of the best that elder scrolls has to offer, when not only 9/10ths of the worlds people can cast magica but also 9/10ths of the worlds beasts apparently have arcane knowledge it removes the mystery and allure that magica had.

In my opinion the over use of magic in eso is simply the worst part of the game, it downplays everything, there is no knights there is no archers, there is no warriors, there are only mages who decide they want to swing a sword or shoot a bow, everyone is a special cookie, and it is ruining the beautiful word Bethesda has crafted over the last 20 years.

that is what I think, how about you?

I think in the regular Elder Scrolls games magic was very easy to come by, so it was never that special anyway. The mages guild were just the people who specialised in it, a bit like a computer programmer compared to a regular computer user.

zdkazz

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

zdkazz

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Full agree here. What's also kinda weird to me was the extreme inconsistency that follows from having widespread magic like that. Apparently, there is an abundance of cheaply available magic of all kinds that could potentially revolutionize practically any aspect of living but it somehow doesn't affect the decidedly medieval setting at all because pretty much nobody gives a ***. There are no power struggles, there is no ruling class being wary of powers out of their reach, no prosecution of magical talents and so on. I'm not saying I want a story about those things, but I'm a bit put off as to why there's no explanation why they do not naturally occur.

didnt even think of that, but yeah that makes since.

Neutronium_Dragon

Magic in the TES universe is actually a fairly everyday thing. Notwithstanding the fact that the whole of Nirn (and everyone in it) is essentially made of magic, the use of it - in contrast to a setting like Dragon Age - has been compared to a skill like math in the real world. Everyone has some aptitude for it, and people may study it to varying extents, but only a handful are going to take it to the point of a math degree - the equivalent of a TES mage.

It must also be kept in mind that the use of magicka isn't necessarily linked to "spell casting". Racial characteristics and powers are also the result of magicka use - formal academic study not required - whether or not the races involved like to think of it that way.

dodgehopper_ESO

Warning, there may be spoilers here since I will discuss issues of 'end game' storyline you may not wish to see. Look no further if you have not played to the end of the Main Quest. (Got the Spoiler hidden now).

1. Our characters are soul shriven, and apparently a daedric vestige.

Interestingly, it is Aedric power thanks to Akatosh and Varen Aquliarios that we are able to keep going and in a sense defy Molag Bal. Because of this, our characters have both strange daedric and aedric qualities. I do not find it odd that we run into ghosts quite often, simply because we are ourselves ghosts up until the 'end' of the main storyline. At the very end of the storyline, our characters become dragonborn. I hate to say it, but there it is. I've said it before, but having played 4 characters now through the end I'm fairly certain of this fact. We more or less share a soul with Varen, which is very reminiscent of things that happened with Talos, Alessia, and other figures. Our characters are demi-gods, and got through defeating Molag Bal for a time, if you can believe it. I have watched the conversations with Cadwell, Meridia, and Varen enough times to come to these conclusions.

On your next run through, please pay attention to everything they say at the end.

2. The Psijic Endeavor. I've noticed that Psijic power seems a lot more common than it did in other eras of TES that I have played, and I have a sense that this is a remnant of Aedric understanding that people have lost over time in later eras. At least the elves did. I've never see Psijic power used so much in a TES game until this era, but it doesn't bother me particularly because we are pushing ourselves much closer to the Dawn era. Why does this matter? Psijics are knowledgeable about the mechanics of the universe in ways that many Mages Guild scholars are not.

3. Ayleid ruins: Don't be surprised if they house ancient magical power in them... they always did.

4. On technology, in some ways I think it odd the human races haven't developed technology more rapidly than the elves in large part because of the way in which they in general shun magic.

5. From an aesthetic standpoint I do understand the concern actually. My main character is intended to be a Holy Aedric Knight (Templar). I wanted to have some powers, but mainly he is supposed to be in heavy armor. I have continually found Heavy Armor to be very lacking in this game for a lot of reasons. Everyone can fire magic ad infinitum if you use the right sets, but there are no good counters to this. As an example, in pvp many players fire Talons off repeatedly, and can easily deplete someone's stamina even if they have set bonuses and high stamina which should make rolling a piece of cake. The problem is simply that there needs better tactical balance for true warriors. A warrior hero doesn't need to be magic-less, and I'm certainly fine with that, but it should be balanced to a magic-hero. If balance in combat is the concern here, then I entirely understand.

6. I'm not sure what is wrong with Nix hounds teleporting. They're strange magical creatures from Morrowind. Everyone there is touched by Red Mountain in one way or another. What about the way Netches float around, do you think they're filled with Helium? Hydrogen? If Hydrogen shouldn't they explode instead of expelling green gas? I also recollect Kwama had magic available to them as well in Morrowind, so again I'd have to point out you can't complain about a magical creature having magic. It just doesn't fly. Trolls, Dragons, Lurchers, Spriggans, Nereids, etc also apply.

7. Wayshrines. Please remember that our characters are Soul Shriven/Vestiges. The fact we can portal around the way we do is unusual. Cadwell is... well I'm not sure what Cadwell is but the fact he's managed to survive and remain himself (more or less) for as long as he has done so is amazing. I get the sense he is the first Undaunted as well. One should not be amazed that the very upper echelons of the Mages Guild can make portals. If Telenger or THE FOUNDER of the Guild, Vanus Galerion make portals, please don't be surprised. The Silvenar is likewise the pinnacle of Bosmer magic, I'm not surprised he can open a portal either. I'll leave it at this, though I do understand the concerns but Propylon Indices do remind me a lot of Wayshrines though.

8. Finally, there is the issue people bring up of lost magic/technology. I'm not sure why people find this particularly surprising in the TES universe, considering that often the best and brightest are sent out to fight Daedric Incurions and cataclysms as well as huge wars between eras. Much was lost between Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Think of how the Great House Telvanni was brought low by the eruption of Red Mountain and the invasion of the Argonians at that opportune moment in history. While there are still some Telvanni left, they are few and far between and certainly nothing like they once were.

So there are the history and theme concerns and my thoughts on them. Ultimately though I do agree that I wish a bit of attention would be put into making the Warrior build a more viable one, as well as something more commonly seen out in the world. In all fairness I don't have a problem with the 'dress and skirt crowd' as a matter of fact I made a character for that purpose (I have a vet of each class), but I do think it would be good for the game if we would see more of the other playstyles shine. I have a bit of confidence though that the game designers are working toward that balance, but we'll see. It takes a lot of time for them to make changes.

Rune_Relic

@dodgehopper_ESO
edit post.....and you will see the backward P with a drop down draw. highlight text..click the triangle for the drop draw.....select spoiler.

dodgehopper_ESO

Rune_Relic wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO
edit post.....and you will see the backward P with a drop down draw. highlight text..click the triangle for the drop draw.....select spoiler.

Thank you Rune Relic.

Aeratus

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

Magic in the TES universe is actually a fairly everyday thing. Notwithstanding the fact that the whole of Nirn (and everyone in it) is essentially made of magic, the use of it - in contrast to a setting like Dragon Age - has been compared to a skill like math in the real world. Everyone has some aptitude for it, and people may study it to varying extents, but only a handful are going to take it to the point of a math degree - the equivalent of a TES mage.

It must also be kept in mind that the use of magicka isn't necessarily linked to "spell casting". Racial characteristics and powers are also the result of magicka use - formal academic study not required - whether or not the races involved like to think of it that way.

This isn't true. In the AD quest storyline, Aryenn thought that Estre did not know magic, even though Estre is an Altmer noble.

Even though Estre did actually know magic, it was clear that Aryenn did not expect her to know. On the other hand, if magic were an everyday thing, Aryenn would not have said that.

So the writers at least did not intend magic to be a common thing. The gameplay designers must have had a different idea, apparently.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

Another thing to remember is that the Mage's guild, an organization still lead by Vanus Galerion, is at the height of its power and influence.

Vanus is in good standing with all three alliance leaders. This is presumably why the guild has so many chapters spread out across Tamriel, and why magic is so accessible.

Aeratus wrote: »

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

Magic in the TES universe is actually a fairly everyday thing. Notwithstanding the fact that the whole of Nirn (and everyone in it) is essentially made of magic, the use of it - in contrast to a setting like Dragon Age - has been compared to a skill like math in the real world. Everyone has some aptitude for it, and people may study it to varying extents, but only a handful are going to take it to the point of a math degree - the equivalent of a TES mage.

It must also be kept in mind that the use of magicka isn't necessarily linked to "spell casting". Racial characteristics and powers are also the result of magicka use - formal academic study not required - whether or not the races involved like to think of it that way.

This isn't true. In the AD quest storyline, Aryenn thought that Estre did not know magic, even though Estre is an Altmer noble.

This would almost certainly imply a lack of interest on Estre's part for studying magic. Even before the Mage's Guild, as a Kinlady and a Princess it would be no trouble at all for her to secure a magical education.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

I have the Kinlady Estre stashed. I go visit once in a while.

She made some unfortunate deals, that's where her power came from. She is not a particularly strong mage.

Kharnis

zdkazz wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

Too bad he never actually said that.

Istyar

Kharnis wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

Too bad he never actually said that.

You can imagine a book in TES: VI "XXX" talking about the Emperor IchigoKusaraki_1337 that was killed by XXX_noob_XXX, who was five minutes disintegrated by Crazy_Khajit_007 which ruled for almost three minutes?

Because this is what we do in ESO, we are actually writing the lore for future TES games.

Thanks God it will never happen, because ESO isn't a true TES game, it's just an spin-off which took Nirn borrowed.

Kharnis

Istyar wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

Too bad he never actually said that.

You can imagine a book in TES: VI "XXX" talking about the Emperor IchigoKusaraki_1337 that was killed by XXX_noob_XXX, who was five minutes disintegrated by Crazy_Khajit_007 which ruled for almost three minutes?

Because this is what we do in ESO, we are actually writing the lore for future TES games.

Thanks God it will never happen, because ESO isn't a true TES game, it's just an spin-off which took Nirn borrowed.

That's amusing. Unfortunately, it still doesn't mean that TESO isn't canon, nor does it mean that Todd Howard thinks (let alone has said) that TESO isn't canon.

R1ckyDaMan

Istyar wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

Too bad he never actually said that.

You can imagine a book in TES: VI "XXX" talking about the Emperor IchigoKusaraki_1337 that was killed by XXX_noob_XXX, who was five minutes disintegrated by Crazy_Khajit_007 which ruled for almost three minutes?

Because this is what we do in ESO, we are actually writing the lore for future TES games.

Thanks God it will never happen, because ESO isn't a true TES game, it's just an spin-off which took Nirn borrowed.

Took Nirn and destroyed it, ripped it to pieces and left an everlasting scar on the face of the TES ip.

Aeratus

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

This would almost certainly imply a lack of interest on Estre's part for studying magic. Even before the Mage's Guild, as a Kinlady and a Princess it would be no trouble at all for her to secure a magical education.

Actually, the main point I was trying to make is that lack of expected magic ability for Estre shows that magic was not a commonly practiced art.

If magic is as common as math, then that is like Aryenn saying that Estre doesn't know how to do math. But surely, you would expect the upper class to know how to do some math at least.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

Aeratus wrote: »

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

This would almost certainly imply a lack of interest on Estre's part for studying magic. Even before the Mage's Guild, as a Kinlady and a Princess it would be no trouble at all for her to secure a magical education.

Actually, the main point I was trying to make is that lack of expected magic ability for Estre shows that magic was not a commonly practiced art.

If magic is as common as math, then that is like Aryenn saying that Estre doesn't know how to do math. But surely, you would expect the upper class to know how to do some math at least.

Or maybe Ayrenn assumed Estre didn't know magic because magic is so commonplace, and yet she's never seen Estre use it. You can't really draw any concrete conclusions from that one line.

Personally, I wouldn't go as far as to say that magic is as common as math, but I don't see how Ayrenn's line discounts magic's prevalence in Tamriel.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Aeratus wrote: »

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

This would almost certainly imply a lack of interest on Estre's part for studying magic. Even before the Mage's Guild, as a Kinlady and a Princess it would be no trouble at all for her to secure a magical education.

Actually, the main point I was trying to make is that lack of expected magic ability for Estre shows that magic was not a commonly practiced art.

If magic is as common as math, then that is like Aryenn saying that Estre doesn't know how to do math. But surely, you would expect the upper class to know how to do some math at least.

She is high nobility. She has mages to do her bidding. This is why Aryenn probably assumed she was not a mage.

Circuitous

What a bizarre thread.

Commoners and backwoods idiots fear magic. Everyone else is pretty much over it, even in Skyrim.

In every Elder Scrolls game, any adventurer worth a damn knew at least a few spells (and in every game, even Skyrim, you start out knowing at least two). Races have inborn powers that channel magicka in various ways, even if they never cast a "spell" in their lives. High Elves and Bretons practically bleed magic - even if, like Estre, they don't publicly practice.

Magic is so phenomenally easy to come by in every Elder Scrolls game, that the idea of ESO having too much of it is absolutely ridiculous.

AlexDougherty

Istyar wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

To the OP:

It's simple dude, you just have to disconsider ESO a TES game. I did it and I'm very happy.

I knew I would do it in the moment I saw that Nords, Dunmers and Argonians would fight together...

yea you know its bad when Todd Howard says ESO is not cannon lol.

Too bad he never actually said that.

You can imagine a book in TES: VI "XXX" talking about the Emperor IchigoKusaraki_1337 that was killed by XXX_noob_XXX, who was five minutes disintegrated by Crazy_Khajit_007 which ruled for almost three minutes?

Because this is what we do in ESO, we are actually writing the lore for future TES games.

Thanks God it will never happen, because ESO isn't a true TES game, it's just an spin-off which took Nirn borrowed.

PVP (which is what the emperor title is part of) isn't canon.
PVE probably is canon, or at least some selection of the choices we make will be.
Player Names will never be canon, unless some dev see one he/she likes and writes it into a book in TES VI.
Alliances are now Canon.
Cannons however are not canon (yeah I know, really bad pun).