Which makes the point even more salient, yes? Veteran rank stat boosts are awarded to everyone, so as I understand this, the cap will be farther away.

Your taking about level passive buffs - the increase in stat points you get simply by leveling.

I'm talking about racial passive buffs. A passive you spec into with skillpoints.

Searching for "passive," "race," or "racial," brings no results in the article you linked. I'll read the whole thing later but it does not seem to address this topic.

Point is simple: the entire system is being totally overhauled so asking for this now based on how things work now is rather irrelevant.

Again with the entire system being overhauled and re-evaluated, you are arguing from an as yet unknown vaiable since the goal for character progression will be in the new passive trees, not racial passives.

Soulshine wrote: »

Again with the entire system being overhauled and re-evaluated, you are arguing from an as yet unknown vaiable since the goal for character progression will be in the new passive trees, not racial passives.

Soulshine, seriously. Slow down and re read his original post. He is basically saying that some RACIAL PASSIVES ARE GIMPED AND NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. Sorry, for the caps, but you are being rather obtuse in your arguments. Nowhere in the guild summit did it mention a revamp of RACIAL PASSIVES.

Please cite source for removing character progression from racial passive tree?

I am trying to understand your recommendation here. Wait to suggest changes until the champion system hits test? That has not proven to work well in the past...

Soulshine wrote: »

If I slowed down any more I'd be dead, hehe. We are just looking at it from different places, that is all. I get that you don't agree. My point is that the info provided is sketchy at best (and yes, given the track record...) not exactly relevant at this point in time. That is how I see it.

So you're not trying to add constructively to the thread? While I appreciate your opinion, telling someone their concern of an issue is irrelevant is usually never constructive..

Like the current Bosmer passives; if the existing stat bonuses were simply raised to reflect the removal of caps, that would be sufficient for me.
Do not need any additional features; most certainly do not want to see existing bonuses removed or replaced.

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

If I slowed down any more I'd be dead, hehe. We are just looking at it from different places, that is all. I get that you don't agree. My point is that the info provided is sketchy at best (and yes, given the track record...) not exactly relevant at this point in time. That is how I see it.

So you're not trying to add constructively to the thread? While I appreciate your opinion, telling someone their concern of an issue is irrelevant is usually never constructive..

I see. So because I don't agree with the OPs point of view I am to not give an opinion? hehe

I am not sure why this is such a big deal. The facts are that they have changed the information on the champion system numerous times, and are likely to do so again. Until such time as there is actual testing going on with regards to the new passives working (or not) in conjunction with racials it is all just speculating anyway. Hardly something to get that worked up over. If you see that as not constructive, fine. I see it as realistic.

You reference a summit held by zenimax then call it speculation. Which is it really when the company producing the game and releasing the updates to the player base provides us with info speculation or truth? I don't really know how to respond to this other than to say their concerns are valid and the forum is a place to voice those concerns. Zenimax has said this is a place for exactly that purpose. If it's not important to you, you would not have come to and try to bait people in a thread that should be an entirely helpful debate about how to bring one classes lacking racials in line with an uncapped attribute system.

So again, because I don't share your view point and say exactly why I don't, I am "baiting people." Nice.

Good grief. Again, fact is that anything ZoS has publiushed about the champion system is all info on their work still in progress, and they have already been changed it numerous times from previous information released. Pointing out to people to read the summit info is so they can see that for themselves.

Getting all worked up over it and arguing about passives which may or may not exist by the time this overhaul goes live is not what I call productive. It is again, speculation at best, grounded in little fact other than what we have presently which is not guaranteed to be around post this overhaul being implemented.

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

If I slowed down any more I'd be dead, hehe. We are just looking at it from different places, that is all. I get that you don't agree. My point is that the info provided is sketchy at best (and yes, given the track record...) not exactly relevant at this point in time. That is how I see it.

So you're not trying to add constructively to the thread? While I appreciate your opinion, telling someone their concern of an issue is irrelevant is usually never constructive..

I see. So because I don't agree with the OPs point of view I am to not give an opinion? hehe

I am not sure why this is such a big deal. The facts are that they have changed the information on the champion system numerous times, and are likely to do so again. Until such time as there is actual testing going on with regards to the new passives working (or not) in conjunction with racials it is all just speculating anyway. Hardly something to get that worked up over. If you see that as not constructive, fine. I see it as realistic.

You reference a summit held by zenimax then call it speculation. Which is it really when the company producing the game and releasing the updates to the player base provides us with info speculation or truth? I don't really know how to respond to this other than to say their concerns are valid and the forum is a place to voice those concerns. Zenimax has said this is a place for exactly that purpose. If it's not important to you, you would not have come to and try to bait people in a thread that should be an entirely helpful debate about how to bring one classes lacking racials in line with an uncapped attribute system.

So again, because I don't share your view point and say exactly why I don't, I am "baiting people." Nice.

Good grief. Again, fact is that anything ZoS has publiushed about the champion system is all info on their work still in progress, and they have already been changed it numerous times from previous information released. Pointing out to people to read the summit info is so they can see that for themselves.

Getting all worked up over it and arguing about passives which may or may not exist by the time this overhaul goes live is not what I call productive. It is again, speculation at best, grounded in little fact other than what we have presently which is not guaranteed to be around post this overhaul being implemented.

Yet you come in and try to start arguments. My opinion is actually not reflected in this at all. I have never said I want the passives to be changed, not changed, or that it doesnt matter to me. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I agree with you or not it has to do with you saying you don't care yet you're here arguing about your opinion with yourself since I've already said I respect your opinion. Funny how that works.

I did not say that I do not care. I said I do not see why this is should be such a big deal. Most especially at this point in time. There is a difference. That you are confounding the two is your issue.

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

If I slowed down any more I'd be dead, hehe. We are just looking at it from different places, that is all. I get that you don't agree. My point is that the info provided is sketchy at best (and yes, given the track record...) not exactly relevant at this point in time. That is how I see it.

So you're not trying to add constructively to the thread? While I appreciate your opinion, telling someone their concern of an issue is irrelevant is usually never constructive..

I see. So because I don't agree with the OPs point of view I am to not give an opinion? hehe

I am not sure why this is such a big deal. The facts are that they have changed the information on the champion system numerous times, and are likely to do so again. Until such time as there is actual testing going on with regards to the new passives working (or not) in conjunction with racials it is all just speculating anyway. Hardly something to get that worked up over. If you see that as not constructive, fine. I see it as realistic.

You reference a summit held by zenimax then call it speculation. Which is it really when the company producing the game and releasing the updates to the player base provides us with info speculation or truth? I don't really know how to respond to this other than to say their concerns are valid and the forum is a place to voice those concerns. Zenimax has said this is a place for exactly that purpose. If it's not important to you, you would not have come to and try to bait people in a thread that should be an entirely helpful debate about how to bring one classes lacking racials in line with an uncapped attribute system.

So again, because I don't share your view point and say exactly why I don't, I am "baiting people." Nice.

Good grief. Again, fact is that anything ZoS has publiushed about the champion system is all info on their work still in progress, and they have already been changed it numerous times from previous information released. Pointing out to people to read the summit info is so they can see that for themselves.

Getting all worked up over it and arguing about passives which may or may not exist by the time this overhaul goes live is not what I call productive. It is again, speculation at best, grounded in little fact other than what we have presently which is not guaranteed to be around post this overhaul being implemented.

Yet you come in and try to start arguments. My opinion is actually not reflected in this at all. I have never said I want the passives to be changed, not changed, or that it doesnt matter to me. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I agree with you or not it has to do with you saying you don't care yet you're here arguing about your opinion with yourself since I've already said I respect your opinion. Funny how that works.

I did not say that I do not care. I said I do not see why this is should be such a big deal. Most especially at this point in time. There is a difference. That you are confounding the two is your issue.

Why you feel compelled to waste your time(since you don't see the point in arguing about your opinion with yourself) by telling people who(obviously) feel it is a big deal that your opinion is its not. This is counterproductive and possibly trying to elicit a strong negative reaction and against the terms of service of the forums. Enjoy your day.

That you choose to keep attacking me over something I have already explained numerous times is unfortunate. That you do not expect a response is unreasonable. I am, like anyone here would, stating my opinion and why I have it; I did so without violating the terms of service or attacked anyone over it. What your issue is over that I care not to know. Perhaps you should move on to the OP instead of attacking me for not agreeing with it.

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

If I slowed down any more I'd be dead, hehe. We are just looking at it from different places, that is all. I get that you don't agree. My point is that the info provided is sketchy at best (and yes, given the track record...) not exactly relevant at this point in time. That is how I see it.

So you're not trying to add constructively to the thread? While I appreciate your opinion, telling someone their concern of an issue is irrelevant is usually never constructive..

I see. So because I don't agree with the OPs point of view I am to not give an opinion? hehe

I am not sure why this is such a big deal. The facts are that they have changed the information on the champion system numerous times, and are likely to do so again. Until such time as there is actual testing going on with regards to the new passives working (or not) in conjunction with racials it is all just speculating anyway. Hardly something to get that worked up over. If you see that as not constructive, fine. I see it as realistic.

You reference a summit held by zenimax then call it speculation. Which is it really when the company producing the game and releasing the updates to the player base provides us with info speculation or truth? I don't really know how to respond to this other than to say their concerns are valid and the forum is a place to voice those concerns. Zenimax has said this is a place for exactly that purpose. If it's not important to you, you would not have come to and try to bait people in a thread that should be an entirely helpful debate about how to bring one classes lacking racials in line with an uncapped attribute system.

So again, because I don't share your view point and say exactly why I don't, I am "baiting people." Nice.

Good grief. Again, fact is that anything ZoS has publiushed about the champion system is all info on their work still in progress, and they have already been changed it numerous times from previous information released. Pointing out to people to read the summit info is so they can see that for themselves.

Getting all worked up over it and arguing about passives which may or may not exist by the time this overhaul goes live is not what I call productive. It is again, speculation at best, grounded in little fact other than what we have presently which is not guaranteed to be around post this overhaul being implemented.

Yet you come in and try to start arguments. My opinion is actually not reflected in this at all. I have never said I want the passives to be changed, not changed, or that it doesnt matter to me. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I agree with you or not it has to do with you saying you don't care yet you're here arguing about your opinion with yourself since I've already said I respect your opinion. Funny how that works.

I did not say that I do not care. I said I do not see why this is should be such a big deal. Most especially at this point in time. There is a difference. That you are confounding the two is your issue.

Why you feel compelled to waste your time(since you don't see the point in arguing about your opinion with yourself) by telling people who(obviously) feel it is a big deal that your opinion is its not. This is counterproductive and possibly trying to elicit a strong negative reaction and against the terms of service of the forums. Enjoy your day.

That you choose to keep attacking me over something I have already explained numerous times is unfortunate. That you do not expect a response is unreasonable. I am, like anyone here would, stating my opinion and why I have it; I did so without violating the terms of service or attacked anyone over it. What your issue is over that I care not to know. Perhaps you should move on to the OP instead of attacking me for not agreeing with it.

I have not attacked you once simply pointed out facts to you about the behavior you are exhibiting. If you do not like that I am pointing out your behavior that is your issue.

Edit: only you are capable of changing your behavior no matter how much anyone points it out to you.

The only "fact" here to be pointed out is that there is disagreement on a point of view, nothing more.

Soulshine wrote: »

Update 5 will reduce the passive stat boosts from veteran ranks, but grant attribute and skill points for the player to choose how to spend.

By this is means the passive increase (+magicka/stamina/health) per veteran rank.

It does not refer to the passives from races, which will of course be staying - as far as I am aware this part of the system will not be overhauled, just the veteran ranks.
With the removal of the caps the racial bonuses will, if anything, be more important.

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

If I slowed down any more I'd be dead, hehe. We are just looking at it from different places, that is all. I get that you don't agree. My point is that the info provided is sketchy at best (and yes, given the track record...) not exactly relevant at this point in time. That is how I see it.

So you're not trying to add constructively to the thread? While I appreciate your opinion, telling someone their concern of an issue is irrelevant is usually never constructive..

I see. So because I don't agree with the OPs point of view I am to not give an opinion? hehe

I am not sure why this is such a big deal. The facts are that they have changed the information on the champion system numerous times, and are likely to do so again. Until such time as there is actual testing going on with regards to the new passives working (or not) in conjunction with racials it is all just speculating anyway. Hardly something to get that worked up over. If you see that as not constructive, fine. I see it as realistic.

You reference a summit held by zenimax then call it speculation. Which is it really when the company producing the game and releasing the updates to the player base provides us with info speculation or truth? I don't really know how to respond to this other than to say their concerns are valid and the forum is a place to voice those concerns. Zenimax has said this is a place for exactly that purpose. If it's not important to you, you would not have come to and try to bait people in a thread that should be an entirely helpful debate about how to bring one classes lacking racials in line with an uncapped attribute system.

So again, because I don't share your view point and say exactly why I don't, I am "baiting people." Nice.

Good grief. Again, fact is that anything ZoS has publiushed about the champion system is all info on their work still in progress, and they have already been changed it numerous times from previous information released. Pointing out to people to read the summit info is so they can see that for themselves.

Getting all worked up over it and arguing about passives which may or may not exist by the time this overhaul goes live is not what I call productive. It is again, speculation at best, grounded in little fact other than what we have presently which is not guaranteed to be around post this overhaul being implemented.

Why is discussing the proposed changes and voicing concerns that may have been overlooked (especially given the track record) somehow "irrelevant"?

ZOS: Hey, we are thinking about doing this thing in the game.

Players: Hey, that sounds cool, but...

I'm fairly certain that these forums exist precisely to hold such discussions.

I also agree w/ the OP; the softcaps are what generally make the stat bonus racials more balanced currently, but w/ their removal, races like Imperials will simply have 22% more stats than other races, etc.

It is indeed cause for concern, and the devs have stated in the past that they'd like to take another look at the racial boni. Perhaps this is a good time for that look.

People often wait until changes are put on test. Then point out problems with the changes, some of them game breaking, through posts on test forums. The issues still go live and have to be addressed by hotfix or weekly patch.

If now is not a good time to start brainstorming reasonable changes, I'm not sure what time ever would be. I am not so optimistic as to think my particular recommendation, or any other person's proposal will be used. However, I am fairly confident that it will be read by the right people and get them thinking about the implications. I found it very odd that in the summit, although caps are being removed, they never once addressed racial passives. Maybe,as with many other confounding factors that have unbalanced the game, they just did not think about it.

One of the interesting things about the upcoming changes is that stats will be increased by an order of magnitude in order to make small percent bonuses meaningful. As a result, the 12% increased magicka, health, etc., become more than just meaningful. With that new perspective, I'm afraid they may have no choice but to drastically decrease racial stat bonuses.