Why I am against the proposed changes to oil WARNING - LONG

Maulkin · September 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

Dudis wrote: »

I feel removing the AoE cap would fix all of these issues. My reasoning being that "normal" players won't be affected much since there's rarely more than 6 players stacked up anyways, unless trying to push through a choke or something. Knowing there was no cap, people would actively try to spread out too.
The zerg blobs are the ones that would be affected since just a small group of players with enough burst could blow them all up, making this tactic no longer viable or effective.

They'd have to cap some abilities though. Both morphs of Batswarms could be very silly if uncapped since they are hard to spot sometimes.
AoE CC spells like the Banner synergy, DK/Sorc root etc should probably keep the cap too.
Keep in mind that I personally wouldn't mind these being uncapped either since they are so easy to dodge anyways but the casual player might not agree.

I still think they should remove the AOE caps on everything and add in friendly fire. It's ridiculous to be able to stand in the middle of an inferno if that pale elf or cat over there cast it but not if that grey elf or lizard over here cast it. Would deal with the OP nature of casters as well. If you turn half your side into BBQ you won't be all that welcome on the wall.

You lost me at "add in friendly fire"....

phreatophile · September 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

Dudis wrote: »

I feel removing the AoE cap would fix all of these issues. My reasoning being that "normal" players won't be affected much since there's rarely more than 6 players stacked up anyways, unless trying to push through a choke or something. Knowing there was no cap, people would actively try to spread out too.
The zerg blobs are the ones that would be affected since just a small group of players with enough burst could blow them all up, making this tactic no longer viable or effective.

They'd have to cap some abilities though. Both morphs of Batswarms could be very silly if uncapped since they are hard to spot sometimes.
AoE CC spells like the Banner synergy, DK/Sorc root etc should probably keep the cap too.
Keep in mind that I personally wouldn't mind these being uncapped either since they are so easy to dodge anyways but the casual player might not agree.

I still think they should remove the AOE caps on everything and add in friendly fire. It's ridiculous to be able to stand in the middle of an inferno if that pale elf or cat over there cast it but not if that grey elf or lizard over here cast it. Would deal with the OP nature of casters as well. If you turn half your side into BBQ you won't be all that welcome on the wall.

You lost me at "add in friendly fire"....

I know, most people feel that way. It's nice to be able to fling fire and rotten meat and whatever else wherever with no regard to who it hits because it only hits the right people no matter what. Pretty silly though.

Garion · September 2014

tplink3r1 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ul9rAzTFg&list=UUPG7lzVgmcQ18AknTXYdk-A
nerf.

The problem there was not the oil. The oil did minimum damage. It was the zerg inside spamming skills. If the oil wasn't there, you would have still died.

Huntler · September 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

Dudis wrote: »

I feel removing the AoE cap would fix all of these issues. My reasoning being that "normal" players won't be affected much since there's rarely more than 6 players stacked up anyways, unless trying to push through a choke or something. Knowing there was no cap, people would actively try to spread out too.
The zerg blobs are the ones that would be affected since just a small group of players with enough burst could blow them all up, making this tactic no longer viable or effective.

They'd have to cap some abilities though. Both morphs of Batswarms could be very silly if uncapped since they are hard to spot sometimes.
AoE CC spells like the Banner synergy, DK/Sorc root etc should probably keep the cap too.
Keep in mind that I personally wouldn't mind these being uncapped either since they are so easy to dodge anyways but the casual player might not agree.

I still think they should remove the AOE caps on everything and add in friendly fire. It's ridiculous to be able to stand in the middle of an inferno if that pale elf or cat over there cast it but not if that grey elf or lizard over here cast it. Would deal with the OP nature of casters as well. If you turn half your side into BBQ you won't be all that welcome on the wall.

You lost me at "add in friendly fire"....

I know, most people feel that way. It's nice to be able to fling fire and rotten meat and whatever else wherever with no regard to who it hits because it only hits the right people no matter what. Pretty silly though.

Man argues something being silly because its unrealistic in a game with [snip] ghosts, vampires, and magic....

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Raeder · September 2014

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Raeder wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ul9rAzTFg&list=UUPG7lzVgmcQ18AknTXYdk-A
nerf.

Ummm... ignore the tower... is that so hard? I always ignore those tower groups... let them come out later and deal with them... I even saw one of our AD guilds wait not 5 minutes in stealth outside of a camped tower for them to leave and then crushed them.

Until the zergball issue is addressed, oil is the only thing that can counter those groups. So this a knewjerk reaction to something that serious PvPers can deal with.

ignore? if we leave they capture the resource.
wait until they leave? im sure no one wants to wait until they leave the tower.

So... they cap a resource, so what?!

Garion · October 2014

effinshiddy wrote: »

hahahah to the guy who said this oil change is a "knee jerk reaction"... it took SIX MONTHS to jerk that knee buddy. people left this game in droves over the oil issues for the first 2 months because it destroyed the idea of how PvP should look and feel. literally oil is a day 1 complaint.

the problem now is kind of how Agrippa points it out. those of us who DID stay through the oil have learned to play around (and in) it. we stopped griping for this change because it is the counter to certain zerg/stacking tactics.

but sorry, Agrippa, you are wrong on this one. look at ADs skele guild (sorry idk your name). they have a very specific set of tactics. every time they engage, there are one or two guys whose sole job is dropping oils in open field engagements. inside towers while taking/defending flags the huddle in uber tiny corners on their oil. the situation described is that oil is supposed to be countering these types of grouping tactics, yet they are more effectively implementing it than anyone else. lately we have managed to maybe split wins/losses with them, but they have become to attuned to the engagement process, they have the leg up every time. i'm not saying it's bad or good either way--it's simply what is happening.

(if you look at any uncoordinated zerg in open field, they spread out because it's what uncoordination does. you can't place enough oils to counter any 100 man zerg in open field or even inside towers because people that are not in one large guilded group are never going to listen closely enough to anyone to stack up and be countered by ground oil.)

the 2nd component of this countering though was blazing shield. oil was for countering numbers, while blazing shield was used to counter fire ring/pulsar spam. if anyone like that 1st comment really wants to talk about knee jerk reactions, why was blazing shield changed so fast and yet we have gotten NO answer on fire ring? if blazing was gonna get "fixed" then this should have happened at the same time as fire ring or at very least the same time as oil. imbalance was just restored today.

Sorry, I have only just read your post in it's entirety and wanted to comment. I see your points but obviously disagree with them, and my reasons for disagreeing are clearly outlined in my first post. To be honest I feel your motivation for wanting the change is that you have lost against a better group. I am going to address your final point on blazing shield, first by asking - are you serious?! Blazing shield was broken and was being exploited. It could be stacked to do 3, 4, 5k + damage and this was most certainly not intended. That was a BUG. The change to oil is a change to gameplay mechanics which is something entirely different and cannot be compared.

SeltzerDuke · October 2014

Hmm, so which is it? "Oil is harmless! Purge and heal away!" or "Oil is our only defense against the zerg hordes because it's so effective!" Seems a bit contradictory.

I'm sympathetic to the argument of the latter, but cynically I think a good chunk of opposition to change is from the AP farmers worried about losing their favorite toy. But like others pointed out earlier in the thread, while the abuse of oil after a few innocent weeks of pvp where it was only used from heights/distance did sour many off pvp, many of us instead grudgingly adapted to it and even incorporated it into defense ourselves. (The less said about the open field oil pourers, which always crack me up, the better - but if it works for them, okay.) I rarely use oil - for one, I never mastered the trick of somehow pouring, then getting off and using abilities, and jumping back on in time for the reloaded pour despite the enemy futilely attempting to destroy it the whole time (seriously how does that work? if you are not manning the oil, it should be both vulnerable to getting destroyed and the process of same should prevent anyone from being able to man the same oil in the meantime); second, I usually run heals for my groups so I can't really occupy myself with sitting on oil. So maybe I'm just bitter because I also miss out on all the fun. :P

I will agree, however, that any changes to oil should NOT be a standalone fix left to languish after a patch, but as part of a bigger package of adjustment to pvp combat mechanics overall that, in turn, complement the change.

Rune_Relic · October 2014

Caltrops and oil are both envisioned as ground based area damage.
Oil is supposed to be dropped from heights and poured vertically.
Is it not better to use/modify caltrops for situations like a flag *** ?
ie. is there not a better tool for the purpose you had in mind for oil ?

Garion · October 2014

SeltzerDuke wrote: »

Hmm, so which is it? "Oil is harmless! Purge and heal away!" or "Oil is our only defense against the zerg hordes because it's so effective!" Seems a bit contradictory.

You make a fair point and I apologise for the lack of clarity. A zergball alone will often have enough effective healers and purgers to negate oil as they move through a keep. On the flag it's a different story, providing those defending the flag room aren't relying on oil alone but twinning it with plenty of CC and damage ultis. The oil is there to complement that. It doesn't guarantee a win, but it makes it a fairer fight with a chance of winning on either side.

Oil is not harmless, but it is certainly not as disastrous as people make it out to be if they are using the necessary skills. For instance I can, solo, make it through an oil room with proper use of heals and purges virtually unharmed. If people were using the skills available to them they wouldn't see it as such an awful thing.

Overall the point I am trying to make is that currently oil brings balance to the game, particularly when we refer to smaller groups defending a position versus larger groups or zergballs. I guess that in certain instances this is at the expense of some less experienced players, but I think that we are being too quick to try make the game fit around said players as opposed to having them improve their play to accommodate the challenges they face in game.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Caltrops and oil are both envisioned as ground based area damage.
Oil is supposed to be dropped from heights and poured vertically.
Is it not better to use/modify caltrops for situations like a flag *** ?
ie. is there not a better tool for the purpose you had in mind for oil ?

If they alter a skill to make it similar in effectiveness to countering the zerg or introduce an entirely new one I'd be more open to these changes. As I have stated in this thread, the zergballing issue is not the only reason I am against these changes but it is at the forefront of my mind. There can be no denying that this change will only serve to strengthen them.

AhPook_Is_Here · October 2014

If you are going to write an essay on this it would be nice if you included a counter-thesis so people like myself who don't read forums much would know what the upcoming changes to oil were.

EDIT

I think oil would be fine if the AOE happens 2-3 meters below the cauldron. Therefore if you use it on the ground it does nothing, if you use it on a balcony it is effective.

Blackthorn51 · October 2014

FRIENDLY FIRE ON AOE's!

Maulkin · October 2014

Blackthorn51 wrote: »

FRIENDLY FIRE ON AOE's!

thewordintelligenceisalsothepolaroppositeofdolan_0a6e3bd1f9d88e169795acdf58dd97ee.jpg?w=627

Agrippa_Invisus · October 2014

Blackthorn51 wrote: »

FRIENDLY FIRE ON AOE's!

I will then sit in every friendly inner circle keep, over the nave with oils, and kill my Alliance mates just for you as they transit in.

Macoda · October 2014

The oil change is the right fix. The next set of fixes to chain on top of that which would be good would involve putting a cast time on Impulse and increasing the activation cost for Bat Swarm. That would help with some of the zerg ball issue.

Rune_Relic · October 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Blackthorn51 wrote: »

FRIENDLY FIRE ON AOE's!

I will then sit in every friendly inner circle keep, over the nave with oils, and kill my Alliance mates just for you as they transit in.

yes... what happens to friendly fire with troll groups ?

Maulkin · October 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Blackthorn51 wrote: »

FRIENDLY FIRE ON AOE's!

I will then sit in every friendly inner circle keep, over the nave with oils, and kill my Alliance mates just for you as they transit in.

yes... what happens to friendly fire with troll groups ?

They troll, that's what happens. Trolls troll.

russb7b14_ESO · October 2014

I am happy this change is coming. Oil should not be used as a PBAoE offensive ability. It should be a defensive tool, used in elevated positions to pour down on enemies. Pouring it at your own feet is just *** and should never have been put in the game like this.

Sasky · October 2014

Perhaps not oil, but the point OP makes is that there's very few resources for defending a keep. You can't setup but maybe 3 defensive siege. Any CC can be ignored by a group with rapid + immovable. Caltrops and any GTAoE can be negated.

With the changes to oil, if the attackers have more than the defenders and half-decent coordination, they take the keep. In non-gate keeps, it's probably going to actually be that unless the defenders have around 1.2x the number of attackers, they'll lose.

Sanct16 · October 2014

Just leave everything as it is right now and everything is fine.

If you really want to change oils, you have to adjust the damage aswell to like 1500 damage per tick. Then the oils would be still viable for defending something.

HeroOfNone · October 2014

Oil is easier to counter with the zerging ball than small or solo grouping. What I've seen consistently happen on small scale and medium sized pvp is one person moving from pot to over lapping pot spam rotate it to solo 5 to 8 players without breaking out abilities. Zerging balls normally have efficient purge and heals to counter this, so you're actually promoting the large groups to come in and deal with the individual. Limits that really need to be considered are
- oil should damage the user dropper as well, promoting it's intended use of death from above.
- the higher oil I'd dropped the larger the aoe, with a cap
- improved oil graphics, showing black oil with steam on the ground.
- a distance limit for how close oils can be to one another
- players can operate on one siege weapon for a time frame after its use. You are "reloading" the first one you used, doesn't make sense to can just fire off that many siege weapons while still loading up another

As for the zerging, I think the lag is giving it a weird advantage since folks can't reliably put down their abilities to stop or pick them off, advantages seem to go more with spam heals like mutagen and ward ally.

Lionxoft · October 2014

If you can't see the real reason they are making this adjustment then you are a blind Moth Priest and can't see squat. This is to put a damper on farming pugs who don't slot purge on bridges, barns and other indestructible structures. A better solution would be to disallow them from being used outside of the outer walls of campaign structures.

I'm all for this change. The baddies will just need to learn how to play the game with their abilities and other siege weaponry.

themdogesbite · October 2014

Lionxoft wrote: »

If you can't see the real reason they are making this adjustment then you are a blind Moth Priest and can't see squat. This is to put a damper on farming pugs who don't slot purge on bridges, barns and other indestructible structures. A better solution would be to disallow them from being used outside of the outer walls of campaign structures.

I'm all for this change. The baddies will just need to learn how to play the game with their abilities and other siege weaponry.

Hey thats a brilliant idea, lets do the same for meatbag catapults, or why not all siege in the game. The baddies will just have to play the game with their abbilities after all.

Lionxoft · October 2014

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

If you can't see the real reason they are making this adjustment then you are a blind Moth Priest and can't see squat. This is to put a damper on farming pugs who don't slot purge on bridges, barns and other indestructible structures. A better solution would be to disallow them from being used outside of the outer walls of campaign structures.

I'm all for this change. The baddies will just need to learn how to play the game with their abilities and other siege weaponry.

Hey thats a brilliant idea, lets do the same for meatbag catapults, or why not all siege in the game. The baddies will just have to play the game with their abbilities after all.

It's not removing oil from the game. Oil will still be effective but it won't be the pourfest that it is currently.

Why I am against the proposed changes to oil *WARNING - LONG*

Why I am against the proposed changes to oil WARNING - LONG