Should Vampires be KoS to Guards at Stage 4?

Sav72 · October 2014

I would not mind that, as long as, when I feed, it causes damage..

phreatophile · October 2014

Trust me, I know how few agree with me. Wait till the next nerf and the one after that. When being a Vampire in ESO consists of an appearance set and a couple of debuffs, a few non-combat consequences to vampirism will seem to have been a small price.

starkerealm · October 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Nope , also against this.

This is not a TES single player game , the player cant control time and space by pressing the console comand.

That is the reason in ESO it would be silly to have this OR to have vampires get daylight dmg.

Actually vampires do suffer debuffs during daylight (or buffs at night depending on how you want to look at it) but are still overall disadvantaged because, for reasons unknown to me, days are longer than nights in this game. But aside from that, I'm not sure i understand your objection? Can you elaborate?

Do they? I've never noticed this.

jelliedsoup · October 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

Add to that the simple fact that reading a little of this thread would have shown Ser. Soup that some of us are begging for more consequences to being a Vampire.
If it was up to me:

Vampires would have some NPCs refuse to deal with us regarding quests and trade at stage 3

Guards in PVE and even our own faction guards in PvP would attack us at stage 4

Vampires would have ZERO health/stamina/magicka regen in daylight but lots of all three in the dark.

Amongst other refinements. Bottom line, I'd like it to be a pain in A to be a vampire, enough to make a lot of folks get cured. I'd like see far fewer of us especially in PVP. We're likely on the same side, but his contempt overpowers reason.

I have no contempt for vampires. I'm sick of those who play them whining, asking for this and that, always whining Louis.

This game needs many improvements and focussing on a vocal niche market is not something zos should direct their attention to.

phreatophile · October 2014

starkerealm wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Nope , also against this.

This is not a TES single player game , the player cant control time and space by pressing the console comand.

That is the reason in ESO it would be silly to have this OR to have vampires get daylight dmg.

Actually vampires do suffer debuffs during daylight (or buffs at night depending on how you want to look at it) but are still overall disadvantaged because, for reasons unknown to me, days are longer than nights in this game. But aside from that, I'm not sure i understand your objection? Can you elaborate?

Do they? I've never noticed this.

Other than a morph that gives us more healing from drain at night (not a consequence) I've not noticed this either.

MornaBaine · October 2014

I'd be fine with more daylight weaknesses IF the night cycle were the same as the day cycle but it's not. Nights are 2 hours whereas days are 4. I'd also want no "daylight penalty" when in dungeons and indoors. No sun exposure, no problem. But the nighttime bonuses would need to be realllllly worth it as well. I'd personally enjoy the "hardships" of playing a vampire but the PvP crowd would completely freak out so we know ZoS won't do it. The only compromise I can see even vaguely working is that vamps operate in Cyrodil just as they do now and any proposed changes only affected non-PvP zones. Lame, I know, but it's the only thing that MIGHT shut the kiddies up.

MornaBaine · October 2014

starkerealm wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Nope , also against this.

This is not a TES single player game , the player cant control time and space by pressing the console comand.

That is the reason in ESO it would be silly to have this OR to have vampires get daylight dmg.

Actually vampires do suffer debuffs during daylight (or buffs at night depending on how you want to look at it) but are still overall disadvantaged because, for reasons unknown to me, days are longer than nights in this game. But aside from that, I'm not sure i understand your objection? Can you elaborate?

Do they? I've never noticed this.

Yep, tis true. Though I don't know the actual hard percentages involved in this supposed nighttime "strength." My suspicion is that it's pretty negligible.

MornaBaine · October 2014

jelliedsoup wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

Add to that the simple fact that reading a little of this thread would have shown Ser. Soup that some of us are begging for more consequences to being a Vampire.
If it was up to me:

Vampires would have some NPCs refuse to deal with us regarding quests and trade at stage 3

Guards in PVE and even our own faction guards in PvP would attack us at stage 4

Vampires would have ZERO health/stamina/magicka regen in daylight but lots of all three in the dark.

Amongst other refinements. Bottom line, I'd like it to be a pain in A to be a vampire, enough to make a lot of folks get cured. I'd like see far fewer of us especially in PVP. We're likely on the same side, but his contempt overpowers reason.

I have no contempt for vampires. I'm sick of those who play them whining, asking for this and that, always whining Louis.

This game needs many improvements and focussing on a vocal niche market is not something zos should direct their attention to.

I feel the same way about that "niche" known as "hardcore PvPers."

brandon · October 2014

I'm against this because the vamps already have a lot of huge disadvantage. I think this would be a terrible design choice.

Nox_Aeterna · October 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

Trust me, I know how few agree with me. Wait till the next nerf and the one after that. When being a Vampire in ESO consists of an appearance set and a couple of debuffs, a few non-combat consequences to vampirism will seem to have been a small price.

Mate , i only play 1 char , 1.

I wont play more than this 1 char.

If they make a rule that my char burns during the day , assuming it wont be like oblivion dmg which you could just heal and keep going , that means i cant play 3/4 of the time , since in this game days last longer than nights.

Which mind you , in a single player game wouldnt be so bad since i can control time , in this game I cant , it means either it is night when i can play in RL or i might not even be able to play for days until both times meet.

Now then , you think i will agree that this is a good idea? Well hardly since it means i wont even be able to pretty much play the game anymore.

A game is usually made around the idea that you can play , the reason vampires buring in a TES game never became a issue is exactly because you can like i said control time , thus you can still play 100% of the time , you just wait the hours.

In ESO I would be able to play 25% of the time.

Solanum · October 2014

As a Vampire I really like the idea. It would add to my immersion, and would make a lot of sense in the world.

However, before this is implemented, I'd like them to fix the speed at which Vampire stages change. I mean serious, I JUST ATE, and I'm starting to get hungry half an hour later?

Perhaps a more interesting system could be implemented for the stages?

Arthur_Spoonfondle · October 2014

I think this is a very good idea. Vampires should be KoS at stage four and they should burn in sunlight, in keeping with all the old vampire mythology and TES games past.

If you choose to make your character a vampire, with the benefits that brings, then you should also be prepared to accept the penalties.

MornaBaine · October 2014

They really need to make day and night the same length of time. I've never understood their reason for not doing so. And yes, the length of time of the various stages REALLY needs to be rethought. It seems pretty apparent that the length of the stages was implemented purely as a PvP concern and I'm a little resentful that this design choice has had such a negative impact on MY PvE and RP. But IF those 2 things were done then I think people would be more accepting of additional daylight disadvantages so long as the nighttime bonuses were significant. Right now I can scarcely tell the difference between playing my vampire at night vs during the day.

Moudeed · October 2014

Yes, Vampires should be KOS by NPC guards. What civilized community would not expect their guards / protectors to kill a vampire.

phreatophile · October 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

They really need to make day and night the same length of time. I've never understood their reason for not doing so. And yes, the length of time of the various stages REALLY needs to be rethought. It seems pretty apparent that the length of the stages was implemented purely as a PvP concern and I'm a little resentful that this design choice has had such a negative impact on MY PvE and RP. But IF those 2 things were done then I think people would be more accepting of additional daylight disadvantages so long as the nighttime bonuses were significant. Right now I can scarcely tell the difference between playing my vampire at night vs during the day.

Tangental to the topic at hand but somewhat related: it may be my eyes, but I've been leveling an Alt in Eastmarch and I've noticed it does seem a lot darker at night that it used to be. Anybody else notice a change? Maybe it's something on my end, but I like it.

There are certainly a set of requirements for making any such change viable.

1.)Normalize day night schedule to equal lengths or give us a reason why it's like it is now. Are we in the middle of a summer in the far north or south(oviously not)?

2.) Any day/night penalties would have to be related to light not time, if we're in a cave or dungeon no sunlight=no hurt.

3.) Extend the feeding cycle by quite a bit. At least 2x or 3x as long from stage 1 to 4. If the day is 6hrs long then we go from well fed to totaly starved in less than a day. Seems a little off.

I really do think that the justice system will bring a number of changes to Vampirism, probably not the laundry list of things I'd like to see, but part of the system seems to be adding a certain amount of personality to NPC's that currently only take up space. Some of them will fight, some will run; of those that fight some will be Mages, some melee, some even werewolves. Just the concept of crime and ownership of items should be very interesting and a quantum leap from where we are now in terms of imersion value for the world.

MornaBaine · October 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

They really need to make day and night the same length of time. I've never understood their reason for not doing so. And yes, the length of time of the various stages REALLY needs to be rethought. It seems pretty apparent that the length of the stages was implemented purely as a PvP concern and I'm a little resentful that this design choice has had such a negative impact on MY PvE and RP. But IF those 2 things were done then I think people would be more accepting of additional daylight disadvantages so long as the nighttime bonuses were significant. Right now I can scarcely tell the difference between playing my vampire at night vs during the day.

Tangental to the topic at hand but somewhat related: it may be my eyes, but I've been leveling an Alt in Eastmarch and I've noticed it does seem a lot darker at night that it used to be. Anybody else notice a change? Maybe it's something on my end, but I like it.

There are certainly a set of requirements for making any such change viable.

1.)Normalize day night schedule to equal lengths or give us a reason why it's like it is now. Are we in the middle of a summer in the far north or south(oviously not)?

I started a poll regarding this and have been unhappily surprised to find that more people seem to prefer the current system to changing it to where day and night are of equal length. So, sadly, this totally illogical feature is probably unlikely to be changed.

phreatophile wrote: »

2.) Any day/night penalties would have to be related to light not time, if we're in a cave or dungeon no sunlight=no hurt.

Yeah I've mentioned this as well. It really NEEDS to happen!

phreatophile wrote: »

3.) Extend the feeding cycle by quite a bit. At least 2x or 3x as long from stage 1 to 4. If the day is 6hrs long then we go from well fed to totaly starved in less than a day. Seems a little off.

The #1 pet peeve of everyone who plays vampires and don't just leave them in Stage 4 for perceived PvP benefits. Logically the current Stage system just makes absolutely no sense. Each stage should, at a minimum, last a full 6 hour game day. And, as I've said before, each stage beyond Stage 1 should have consequences. At 2 you should get negative comments and reactions from some NPCs. At 3 some traders should refuse to deal with you (this could be a random chance and another trader WOULD deal with you so you are not locked out of armor repairs and selling your loot, it just becomes inconvenient) and maybe even be pretty nasty about it. And, of course, at 4, KOS to city guard and various reactions, from running away to attacking, from the regular NPC populace. Maybe have ONE NPC in each area that will deal with Stage 4 vamps not far off from one wayshrine and possibly force them to pay higher prices.

phreatophile wrote: »

I really do think that the justice system will bring a number of changes to Vampirism, probably not the laundry list of things I'd like to see, but part of the system seems to be adding a certain amount of personality to NPC's that currently only take up space. Some of them will fight, some will run; of those that fight some will be Mages, some melee, some even werewolves. Just the concept of crime and ownership of items should be very interesting and a quantum leap from where we are now in terms of imersion value for the world.

I really do hope you are right. My greatest fear is that ZoS is going to continue to ignore vampires and werewolves in the justice system, as in there will be nothing specific regarding them. I will find that GREATLY disappointing but I think it is all too possible.

xKyrio · October 2014

I like the idea, but if so!
We need a save town, a Vampire town where we can rome in any form!

MornaBaine · October 2014

So I have yet to see anyone post a compelling argument AGAINST vampires being KoS to guards at Stage 4. Pretty much the only argument I have seen boils down to, "I'm a PvPer and I leave my vamp in Stage 4 and I would find it inconvenient to be KoS at Stage 4." Well, ummmm... that's kind of the POINT. Because the fact is that there SHOULD be disadvantages to being a vampire that help balance out the advantages. Vampire should NOT = easy mode. So just based upon the reaction of players it seems to me that making vampires KoS to guards at Stage 4 IS the perfect solution to vampire imbalance. ZoS never MEANT for vampires to simply remain at Stage 4. Stage 4 is SUPPOSED to come with strong disadvantages and primarily exists to give your vampire a REASON to feed. But that is currently NOT working as intended and perhaps this would be the very thing to make it do so.

Mondo · October 2014

Only when they lollygagging

Gedalya · October 2014

I'm all for changes intended to improve the RP experience; however I would like to see a separate server to support this so that RP limitations and restrictions are not binding on the general play public.

MornaBaine · October 2014

Gedalya wrote: »

I'm all for changes intended to improve the RP experience; however I would like to see a separate server to support this so that RP limitations and restrictions are not binding on the general play public.

I would absolutely LOVE that but essentially we would then be asking them for 2 different games with a lot of different coding and there is no REAL reason for them to do so. They CAN and SHOULD balance RP, PVE and PVP. RP is simply part of immersion. If people want to play a game where all they do is fight other players with neato-looking avatars there's always League of Legends. Personally. I WANT to play ESO, not a PvP game with ESO graphics.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · March 2015

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Nope , also against this.

This is not a TES single player game , the player cant control time and space by pressing the console comand.

That is the reason in ESO it would be silly to have this OR to have vampires get daylight dmg.

Once again, I find us in agreement.

That does happen :P.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Nope , also against this.

This is not a TES single player game , the player cant control time and space by pressing the console comand.

That is the reason in ESO it would be silly to have this OR to have vampires get daylight dmg.

Actually vampires do suffer debuffs during daylight (or buffs at night depending on how you want to look at it) but are still overall disadvantaged because, for reasons unknown to me, days are longer than nights in this game. But aside from that, I'm not sure i understand your objection? Can you elaborate?

You mean the passive stealth speed? Cause i dont remember anything else that changes other than that.

My idea is quite simple , since not like in a single player TES game , a player cant just change what time of the day it is instantly(or change anything pretty much for that matter on the console) , it is important to consider things that would limit the player.

The point being here , by adding this on the justice system for example , you will toss the player by being a vampire into the PvP system , it is know that plenty of players would rather unsub than play a open world PvP game , which is what you would be tossing all vampires into. Can they avoid it? Yeah sure. Keep feeding your char nonstop or be killed by players... Dont think that will cut it.

Also , this logic that people are using here is not even backed up by lore itself. By lore one can consider every vampire player in ESO a "vampire lord" like those from skyrim , which never had any problems with guards,shops... even on stage 4.

One can also use the same argument you used:

MornaBaine wrote: »

Therefore several players have advocated that, as part of the upcoming justice system, that vampires who allow themselves to slip into Stage 4 should be KOS to city and town guards and NPC vendors should refuse to deal with them.

Several players are also against this.

The player as a vampire is not a Vampire Lord not even remotely close to being one, I don't even think they are a full vampire at all given all the things they lack such as fangs and whatnot.

Evarwyn · March 2015

Yes, but I think people would be less inclined to go to Stage 4. I don't think its very practical.

Knootewoot · March 2015

I am a vampire myself, and I say yes. Vampires (and werewolves) and hideous creatures and should die. They prey on the people like parasites. Already (on DC) there are enough quests against werewolves and vampires. People just hate them.

At stage 1 people should tell you , you look sick
At stage 2 people should tell you, go visit the shrine and pray to whoever they should pray to.
At stage 3 people do not want to talk/barter to you (except in cyrodill and thief hideouts)
At stage 4 people attack you.

Time between stages should be longer then (like 4 hours)

Werewolves should in human form be told they smell like dog
In werewolve form = instant attack

Edit: and night's silence armor should stack again.

TheBloodartist · March 2015

Probitas wrote: »

I don't see any real negatives in this game to being a vampire since most debuffs are overcome by other buffs.

Say the what now? Are we playing the same game? In PVE I consider being a vampire almost unplayable due to the amount of fire damage present every-frikkin-where.Especially in certain story missions.

MornaBaine wrote: »

What people are getting confused about is that some players have also spoken of wanting a bounty to be incurred (which WOULD initiate PvP) when vampires feed on NPC Townies. That doesn't have anything to do with their Stage. Stage 4 vamps do not get flagged for PvP, they merely become KoS to city guard NPCs. To incur a bounty you have to actually engage in a criminal activity... which is what attacking a townie to feed on them would be classed as.

Speaking of incurring a bounty, Im not sure if I understand the system correctly yet since I returned to game from a long hiatus with Tamriel unlimited...

But feeding on a townie will make the said townie attack you once the stun wears off. And you kinda have to kill them cause they keep hitting you with their tiny fists. Isn't murder a criminal activity already?

About the topic... I am not completely opposed to guards attacking high-stage vampires on sight, but I don't want to encourage such an idea until I'm sure devs think the entire game experience through completely and not just screw something else up in the process. Cities currently are very important, need them for selling stuff, crafting, guild missions and mission chains.

Feeding has several issues:
- the stages advance too quickly, on this I agree with everyone else
- there are plenty mobs that a vampire cannot feed on even though he should be able to. All non-humanoids, undead, daedra, werewolves.. Because of this, there are many large areas in the game where feeding is much harder, and most practical feeding victims are in the cities. Thus, restricting city entry can be really bad.
- Cannot feed in combat, something that should be possible to attempt, maybe with a random chance of success.
- Cannot feed on people leaning on a wall or having their backs to a wall. Feeding in a dungeon is a pain in the rear because of this.
- Cannot feed on civilians stealthily. Once feeding is done, they will attack you and often necessitate killing them. We could use feeding on sleeping people like in skyrim or something similar. Especially if devs would make guards attack vampires, there should at least be some manner of stealth-feeding possible. It would also be way more immersive than the current feeding animation..
- The stages effects don't have much importance apart from visually.
- The animation is FRIKKEN STUPID.

bloodenragedb14_ESO · March 2015

its really the certian strains of vampirism that has the kos on guards, but even in morrowind, if you commited no crimes as a vampire, you would not be kos, people would just exclude you from services, or basic social interaction.

so stage 4 KoS, NO! But people should be able to recognize you as a vampire and exclude you from thier buisness and services. and rather than being offered to pay a bounty when you commit a crime, you get a KoS until you pay it off to a fence.

Kuettbullen · March 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

I am a vampire myself, and I say yes. Vampires (and werewolves) and hideous creatures and should die. They prey on the people like parasites. Already (on DC) there are enough quests against werewolves and vampires. People just hate them.

At stage 1 people should tell you , you look sick
At stage 2 people should tell you, go visit the shrine and pray to whoever they should pray to.
At stage 3 people do not want to talk/barter to you (except in cyrodill and thief hideouts)
At stage 4 people attack you.

Time between stages should be longer then (like 4 hours)

Werewolves should in human form be told they smell like dog
In werewolve form = instant attack

Edit: and night's silence armor should stack again.

If you want to implement KoS on vampires also make KoS (Kill on Smell) for werewolves because vampires cant control how they look same as werewolves cant control how they smell or atleast make hoods and helmets have impact if people can detect if you're a vampire or not.

folklore · March 2015

While this is an interesting idea and has some decent reasoning behind it... I don't think so. Nooooo thank you.

Dilarn · March 2015

Vampires should be KoS by everyone on Stage 4. So as Werewolves should be when in the wolve form.

Keron · March 2015

Every player not either werewolf or vampire should be excluded from all quests that involve vampire or werewolf quest givers, e.g. the whole main quest line in Rivenspire.

It's unrealistic for vampires to ask those pitchfork swinging murderers to help them.