Actually, how can people discover the method if they are not in fact informed to begin with? If there was transparency, maybe you would still have complaints, but it would be about something else, not the lack of transparency. Just how would we as players go about finding out who was invited, and their motives, without leaving the OFFICIAL SITE? Is there a location here where this was discussed and is easily read and absorbed? Did they take the time to make it available as a podcast? Did they even stream it? NO to it all. We can't. Your statement is so self serving that I automatically dismiss it.

I can't even begin to take people seriously when they actually choose to defend a company that doesn't use it's own site for communication in a more active manner, especially when it's about something that effects everyone, not just those in a guild.

Probitas wrote: »

Actually, how can people discover the method if they are not in fact informed to begin with? If there was transparency, maybe you would still have complaints, but it would be about something else, not the lack of transparency. Just how would we as players go about finding out who was invited, and their motives, without leaving the OFFICIAL SITE? We can't. Your statement is so self serving that I automatically dismiss it.

It can't really be self serving because there's nothing to serve. I wasn't invited to the meeting, none of the people I know or speak with were invited. My guildies were not invited either. I'm still keen to find out what was discussed and what was brought up before I start flinging accusations at other players.

The transparency is in the 12hrs of recorded audio that was posted up the thread and the various sources that reported the topics of discussion. There's still potential they might add the content and the attendees on the site, it's only the 1st day after the event. That didn't stop you writing about "online feudalism" and other fantastical scenarios in sarcastic and demeaning tone towards the other players.

I dgaf if you dismiss my comments or not. Your attitude stinks.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

The attitude in this thread stinks.

Being worried about your views being represented is one thing. Making snarky comments about the guilds and the people that were invited and their motives, is another. Especially when you don't even bother finding out who was invited, why, what what their views are or what they are about.

All the transparency in the world would not stop some people from spouting their rubbish conspiracy theories.

The whole 'guild summit' thing reminds me of a quote from the George Orwell book, Animal Farm.

"Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others".

This 'event' should never have happened at this point. Discussions should be done here on the forums or in live streams. To take a few people aside and ask/show them what's going on while ignoring everyone else is a kick in the gut for every paying subscriber.
Once again your PR team is way off base.
The only thing this will/has accomplished is the alienation of the guilds that were involved, also making the forums even more toxic than they already were.

At this point i'd like to ask for some bio's of your staff in charge of these things as it looks like this is the very first MMO they have worked on as they have no idea how a simple thing like this can destroy any community that was left in ESO.

That's from a player, not from Z: Please do not use that as a defense of Z actions. I am thankful someone made an effort in an unofficial capacity, but expecting us to listen to a 12 hour stream when Z should have paid for dictation is extreme. I would not stoop to using player actions to defend a company, unless that player is an employee and is being utilized in an official capacity. Are you suggesting that these people are now Official player reps? When did that happen?

You call my attitude poor, but we are talking about Z and their attitude towards the whole of their paying customers, not just a select few whom they choose to communicate with. If they intend to now make use of these people as Official Player Reps, then state that openly. I do know that I can't possibly be the only person that feels like only a part of the player base is being listened to and that it goes a long way in explaining the way certain aspects of this game are defended by other players in the forums as 'Works great!' when it doesn't work great for all.

I guess when I pay for something I expect a certain amount of professionalism in behavior, and expect communication. To find out that some people are asked for their opinion but that the results of the meeting are not actually posted, and a lame excuse of 'technical issues' is the defense from an official rep, well, just how should we take that? It's great that some players are actually taking the time to post, and that's awesome. What people are waiting for is OFFICIAL posts.

Rather pointless debate anyway. My experience with MMOs tells me where this game is heading. DAoC all over again.

Why are they asking players on how to fix this game? Why not just hire consultants to take a crack at these issues, if the devs can't handle it themselves? I really don't understand the point of this summit.

Sindala wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

The attitude in this thread stinks.

Being worried about your views being represented is one thing. Making snarky comments about the guilds and the people that were invited and their motives, is another. Especially when you don't even bother finding out who was invited, why, what what their views are or what they are about.

All the transparency in the world would not stop some people from spouting their rubbish conspiracy theories.

The whole 'guild summit' thing reminds me of a quote from the George Orwell book, Animal Farm.

"Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others".

This 'event' should never have happened at this point. Discussions should be done here on the forums or in live streams. To take a few people aside and ask/show them what's going on while ignoring everyone else is a kick in the gut for every paying subscriber.
Once again your PR team is way off base.
The only thing this will/has accomplished is the alienation of the guilds that were involved, also making the forums even more toxic than they already were.

At this point i'd like to ask for some bio's of your staff in charge of these things as it looks like this is the very first MMO they have worked on as they have no idea how a simple thing like this can destroy any community that was left in ESO.

What on earth are you talking about? I'm not a ZOS employee, I'm a player. I'm not even based in NA. The reason there's an _ESO at the end of my name is cause it's a relic from the beta forums when all new accounts were automatically suffixed with _ESO at the end.

If you know how any system of governance works, it's with representation.It's not possible to ask tens (or hundreds) of thousands about the game and have a discussion with every single one of them. Hence they invite people from guilds who represent a large group of people. Also some people in this very forum actively asked players to PM them their concerns saying they will pass them to ZOS during the meetings.

I see nothing wrong with ZOS's action to engage members of the community face to face. The 6-month point after release seems a good time to do it too. You can disagree if you wish, but don't fling dirt at the at the people who went there because you're not one of them.

Sindala wrote: »

felinith66 wrote: »

Why are they asking players on how to fix this game? Why not just hire consultants to take a crack at these issues, if the devs can't handle it themselves? I really don't understand the point of this summit.

Desperation.

It's very disheartening to discover that they don't even know how to fix the lag issues of their own game

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sindala wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

The attitude in this thread stinks.

Being worried about your views being represented is one thing. Making snarky comments about the guilds and the people that were invited and their motives, is another. Especially when you don't even bother finding out who was invited, why, what what their views are or what they are about.

All the transparency in the world would not stop some people from spouting their rubbish conspiracy theories.

The whole 'guild summit' thing reminds me of a quote from the George Orwell book, Animal Farm.

"Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others".

This 'event' should never have happened at this point. Discussions should be done here on the forums or in live streams. To take a few people aside and ask/show them what's going on while ignoring everyone else is a kick in the gut for every paying subscriber.
Once again your PR team is way off base.
The only thing this will/has accomplished is the alienation of the guilds that were involved, also making the forums even more toxic than they already were.

At this point i'd like to ask for some bio's of your staff in charge of these things as it looks like this is the very first MMO they have worked on as they have no idea how a simple thing like this can destroy any community that was left in ESO.

What on earth are you talking about? I'm not a ZOS employee, I'm a player. I'm not even based in NA. The reason there's an _ESO at the end of my name is cause it's a relic from the beta forums when all new accounts were automatically suffixed with _ESO at the end.

If you know how any system of governance works, it's with representation.It's not possible to ask tens (or hundreds) of thousands about the game and have a discussion with every single one of them. Hence they invite people from guilds who represent a large group of people. Also some people in this very forum actively asked players to PM them their concerns saying they will pass them to ZOS during the meetings.

I see nothing wrong with ZOS's action to engage members of the community face to face. The 6-month point after release seems a good time to do it too. You can disagree if you wish, but don't fling dirt at the at the people who went there because you're not one of them.

I never asked about your _ESO tab.....i'm not an idiot I know where they are from.
Also you are way off in your description of Governance.
But think you for proving my point.
It's now Us and Them.
The selected 'individuals' already think they are better than the rest of us just because they were 'chosen'.

@r1ckyDaMan Great question, I've been playing video games since I owned a Spectrum 48k, so late 70's/early 80's. As for my RPG experience, I started with pen and paper games, then moved to MUDD and BBS games. From there, my first "official" MMO was Meridian 59. Since then I've been through various games.

As for the TES series. I purchased Arena in 1994 and have played countless hours of it since, including Redguard and Battlespire, haha. My favorite by far was Daggerfall, I felt the open world and limitless possibilities in that game were phenomenal. As for how many hours, wow, I don't think I can even answer that, far far too many, haha.

As for my other experience, I've worked in MMORPG development for another large company, the game I worked on still exists today.

These days I'm more of a family man and can't put in 18 hour days of development, so I do my part testing games or finding testers for games when approached by different developers. It's something I have extensive experience in.

As for the audio recording, there was so much content that even Tamriel Foundry missed about 50% of it. I'll look at getting some of my people to edit the audio to specific points. I hate to do that because I feel we dilute the message as a whole. But I honestly can't type 48 hours worth of content into this forum. All I can do is address any questions aimed at me.

Keep in mind that this ended last night, so I'm sure that ZOS has something in the works with it. Perhaps on their Live Stream next week, I'm not sure, I'm not privy to that information.

I feel like I need to start putting a disclaimer: These are not the thoughts or representation of Zenimax Online, these are the mad ramblings of a player.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I'm thinking that perhaps a better way to handle the guild summit, and please feel free to correct me where I am wrong, is as follows:

ZOS posts an official statement on these forums, their twitter and facebook page about the upcoming Guild Summit stating that they are going to be inviting guilds representing different aspects of the community (RP, Trade, PvE, PvP, Crafting, etc.) to their office to discuss the game and ways to make it better.

ZOS follows up with a post introducing the guilds they plan to invite so everyone has a chance to get to know who is representing them.

ZOS invites players on the forums to have discussions with the guild representatives so players have a chance to have their voice heard. That way players know their issues are going to be addressed.

ZOS flies out the guild reps and has the Summit and communicates with us with a brief itinerary of what they plan to discuss each day of the event.

ZOS posts a few short video or audio highlights of the meetings and allows the Guild Representatives to post more in depth discussions on their own web sites for those who want to get all those juicy details.

The community feels like they have been included.

Agreed the communication aspect could have been handled better, much better from ZOS. I don't have an issue with people criticising ZOS' handling of the build up to the guild summit.

What I take exception to, as a GM of a guild myself, is the acidic comments directed at the players who went there. Like they're some kind of ZOS lackeys, who's silence and servile head-nodding is being bought by ZOS with some wining and dining. That people who are angry about a skill not working or something are trashing fellow gamers who have spent hours for coding add-ons or running and maintaining websites and gaming communities, just cause they got an invite by ZOS.

I honestly think if ZOS had had more open communication about the Guild Summit you would see a lot less anger from the community. Instead you'd see people actively discussing ideas with the guild summit members.

@Tabbycat‌ I have no argument that communication might be lacking. I know with this in particular, it had to be approved up high, really high, and when they received the response it was a quick last minute scramble. They announced it on their Twitch stream, the people invited only found out about it a few days before that. It was extremely last minute, to the point that I almost did not make it, I had to do some complete reshuffling of my schedule, ship in the sister-in-law to help with the kids, and do all sorts of last minute changes just to be able to accept.

So that may have had something to do with it. I'm not trying to justify or defend it, but I know from my point of view, I didn't know a month or 3 months ago, I literally found out maybe 48-72 hours before it was announced.

So I'm not really sure how it could have been done better, other than it getting approved and then planning it over a couple of month period. But with the ways these companies work, it could have been approved, and then rejected 2 months later. So I understand on the taking advantage of the approval side of things as quickly as possible.

I think what a lot of people do not understand about the game industry is that it is governed by a head office, which is then governed by a Board of Directors. So for someone like a Paul Sage to get approval on something of budgetary scale outside of the norm, it takes a lot of red tape and tiptoeing up the chain, and then patiently waiting for the response from a guy that probably can't even tell you what the name of the game is.

Thank you,

Andrew

adean27 wrote: »

@r1ckyDaMan Great question, I've been playing video games since I owned a Spectrum 48k, so late 70's/early 80's. As for my RPG experience, I started with pen and paper games, then moved to MUDD and BBS games. From there, my first "official" MMO was Meridian 59. Since then I've been through various games.

As for the TES series. I purchased Arena in 1994 and have played countless hours of it since, including Redguard and Battlespire, haha. My favorite by far was Daggerfall, I felt the open world and limitless possibilities in that game were phenomenal. As for how many hours, wow, I don't think I can even answer that, far far too many, haha.

As for my other experience, I've worked in MMORPG development for another large company, the game I worked on still exists today.

These days I'm more of a family man and can't put in 18 hour days of development, so I do my part testing games or finding testers for games when approached by different developers. It's something I have extensive experience in.

As for the audio recording, there was so much content that even Tamriel Foundry missed about 50% of it. I'll look at getting some of my people to edit the audio to specific points. I hate to do that because I feel we dilute the message as a whole. But I honestly can't type 48 hours worth of content into this forum. All I can do is address any questions aimed at me.

Keep in mind that this ended last night, so I'm sure that ZOS has something in the works with it. Perhaps on their Live Stream next week, I'm not sure, I'm not privy to that information.

I feel like I need to start putting a disclaimer: These are not the thoughts or representation of Zenimax Online, these are the mad ramblings of a player.

It is good to know you have extensive experience with elder scrolls games, maybe you could ask zenimax how the team intend to increase the feeling of playing an elder scrolls game in the future.

The world is static with the exception of bunny hopping players.


Edit:

(On a side note) started on the ZX spectrum myself, noisy days indeed hehe

adean27 wrote: »

@Tabbycat‌ I have no argument that communication might be lacking. I know with this in particular, it had to be approved up high, really high, and when they received the response it was a quick last minute scramble. They announced it on their Twitch stream, the people invited only found out about it a few days before that. It was extremely last minute, to the point that I almost did not make it, I had to do some complete reshuffling of my schedule, ship in the sister-in-law to help with the kids, and do all sorts of last minute changes just to be able to accept.

So that may have had something to do with it. I'm not trying to justify or defend it, but I know from my point of view, I didn't know a month or 3 months ago, I literally found out maybe 48-72 hours before it was announced.

So I'm not really sure how it could have been done better, other than it getting approved and then planning it over a couple of month period. But with the ways these companies work, it could have been approved, and then rejected 2 months later. So I understand on the taking advantage of the approval side of things as quickly as possible.

I think what a lot of people do not understand about the game industry is that it is governed by a head office, which is then governed by a Board of Directors. So for someone like a Paul Sage to get approval on something of budgetary scale outside of the norm, it takes a lot of red tape and tiptoeing up the chain, and then patiently waiting for the response from a guy that probably can't even tell you what the name of the game is.

Thank you,

Andrew

I can certainly understand that. Myself with work and school (going for a degree in Business Administration - you are never to old!), there's no way I'd have been able to do anything like that (so jelly!).

I have to ask, though, after all the discussions at the Guild Summit, did you finally find out for sure if Veteran Levels are staying or going? When the Champion system is implemented will we be Level 50 or VR[Level]?

Could also ask who made you the Champion of Zeni?

You have you opinion and I have mine. If you don't agree with me....tough, I don't care as i'm not asking for your permission.

Many, many times now people from beta and PTS have said 'example' is not ready for live and many time Zeni put it in anyway and cause numerous bugs and balance issues. I feel I have a right to know who were working with. If they are new then we can cut them some slack....if the are Vets then no, they don't deserve this fanboi *** they are getting.

MorHawk wrote: »

Sindala wrote: »

Could also ask who made you the Champion of Zeni?

Really? You're actually doing the "who made you king of x" line? You know high school idiocy is supposed to be left there, right?

Sindala wrote: »

if the are Vets then no, they don't deserve this fanboi *** they are getting.

This is reminding me of the reaction of Yes voters in the Scottish Referendum when they saw the result. A lot of them are now calling for the SNP to get a majority in the next election, then push independence through anyway. Because apparently the 55% of Scottish people who voted against it don't really know what's best for them.

Same deal. Get off your high horse, and stop feeling like you have the divine right to tell people how they should think. Mike's right, you are getting delusional here.

Not what i'm saying atall.
I'm saying they should think for themselves not just blindly follow like sheep.
We pay for a service, a service we are sadly lacking then they select a 'few' to represent us all?
Since you like modern day examples this reminds me of recent events in Hong Kong. You know what im saying.

They could have just put up a vid showing what they are thinking, heck they could have used the damb 'Road Ahead' that they now post when it suits them. All this could have been avoided if they just thought about things before acting.
If they want discussion with the playerbase then use the playerbase not just a select few that DONT represent anyone. Just because you belong to a guild don't mean you have the right to speak on mine or anyone elses behalf.