Get Rid of Rez Limits for Normal Mode Trials
Fissh
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First let me say, I don't actually hate the rez limit and time trial concept. So now that we have a 'Difficult' mode, I was hoping to inject some old school raiding logic for normal mode.
As a GM and raid leader, I strive to get groups of people together to learn mechanics for downing bosses. Rez limits can make the learning process tedious with the constant reset of Trial to get back to boss we need to work on. Secondly, the rez limit and time portion of the show adds a level of elitism that does not accommodate those that need to learn very well. I have done both 4/4 AA and 3/3 Hel-Ra and have made the weekly time trial boards for both as well, so this is not a plea on my own behalf, but rather for the sake of bringing others up.
With Difficult mode in place, I find nothing wrong with rez limits and timers at this level. It makes not only the slightly harder mechanics a goal to complete, but also adding a level of competition and needed raid awareness for success. However, at the normal mode level, people need a better environment to learn.
The proposal: Make Normal Mode Trials more "old school" raid feel. Allow unlimited rezzes (grand soul gems will still be an expense). This will allow me to have a raid night where I can take any particular group on learning runs and allow the group to work on the boss that they are having trouble with. It will benefit those that are a bit more casual and simply don't have the time to repeat a Trial multiple times to sit and learn a ONE fight. This is the way it is for Vet/non-Vet dungeons, so it is not a stretch for it to be that way in Trials. Same goes for time. Remove any time limits as to accommodate said learning process.
I have no problem with the concept for Difficult mode. I simply ask for more room to be able to teach fights in a more consistent manner versus "OK, instance out and regroup so we can reset and waste time killing the bosses we have on farm AGAIN, just to get to boss we need to get better at." Once you have completed a Trial on Normal Mode, you should ideally have the foundation of skill/mechanics/awareness to do Difficult Mode with the rez limit/time Trial concept adding to the "difficulty", which is a more logical place for said concept.
As far as lockouts go, that part does not bother me. These are short enough Trials that going through bosses on farm ONCE in a night to get to the boss that needs work is not that big of a deal. Simply would like to stay at that boss for the duration of raid night (typical 2-4hrs twice or so a week).
Edited by Fissh on August 25, 2014 1:05PM As a GM and raid leader, I strive to get groups of people together to learn mechanics for downing bosses. Rez limits can make the learning process tedious with the constant reset of Trial to get back to boss we need to work on. Secondly, the rez limit and time portion of the show adds a level of elitism that does not accommodate those that need to learn very well. I have done both 4/4 AA and 3/3 Hel-Ra and have made the weekly time trial boards for both as well, so this is not a plea on my own behalf, but rather for the sake of bringing others up.
With Difficult mode in place, I find nothing wrong with rez limits and timers at this level. It makes not only the slightly harder mechanics a goal to complete, but also adding a level of competition and needed raid awareness for success. However, at the normal mode level, people need a better environment to learn.
The proposal: Make Normal Mode Trials more "old school" raid feel. Allow unlimited rezzes (grand soul gems will still be an expense). This will allow me to have a raid night where I can take any particular group on learning runs and allow the group to work on the boss that they are having trouble with. It will benefit those that are a bit more casual and simply don't have the time to repeat a Trial multiple times to sit and learn a ONE fight. This is the way it is for Vet/non-Vet dungeons, so it is not a stretch for it to be that way in Trials. Same goes for time. Remove any time limits as to accommodate said learning process.
I have no problem with the concept for Difficult mode. I simply ask for more room to be able to teach fights in a more consistent manner versus "OK, instance out and regroup so we can reset and waste time killing the bosses we have on farm AGAIN, just to get to boss we need to get better at." Once you have completed a Trial on Normal Mode, you should ideally have the foundation of skill/mechanics/awareness to do Difficult Mode with the rez limit/time Trial concept adding to the "difficulty", which is a more logical place for said concept.
As far as lockouts go, that part does not bother me. These are short enough Trials that going through bosses on farm ONCE in a night to get to the boss that needs work is not that big of a deal. Simply would like to stay at that boss for the duration of raid night (typical 2-4hrs twice or so a week).
<X-Raided>
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schroed360✭✭✭Totally agree with that. I will add that usually when it deals with PUG group it take quite some time to build the group and usually after the first disband you lose half of your group...Just stop the timer when wé are out of rez ...out of leaderboard !simple.0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭You guys for real? my first trial I went in with a group that consisted of 4-5 v12, the rest were V1-7, the leader and maybe 3-4 others were the only ones who knew the fight mechanics, so this was a pug group with lots of noobs. He spent a LONG time explaining exactly what each person needed to do possibly 10 minutes of talking throughout the trial, he also relied heavily on teamspeak to direct us in terms of what we had to do. First time we ran out of rezzes was on the Rock boss, the second time it was wisp mother and only because we just didnt have the dps for her..,.Normal mode Trials are REALLY easy, provided a leader knows what he is doing and how to handle each fight...If it becomes any easier what would be the point of even running? Look at the leaderboards, top 100 people have made 13 minute times in AA...I think if i was to take a lvl 95 WoW toon and took him into any of the vanilla raids, it would take me longer to run through the whole instance than it takes for groups to clear AA and HRC....if anything Trials should be made harder....0 -
shadowz081✭✭✭I think you are asking for an easy mode trials where everything rolls over and dies.2 -
Sasky✭✭✭
And you have the DPS. Or you have the DPS high enough, mechanics don't really mean much at all on a lot of the fights. If you're only slightly over the threshold for a particular boss, even if they leader explains well it can take the group several tries to get the mechanics down.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Normal mode Trials are REALLY easy, provided a leader knows what he is doing and how to handle each fight...shadowz081 wrote: »I think you are asking for an easy mode trials where everything rolls over and dies.
Hardly. If you note, OP is just asking for a situation where you can get 4+ pulls on a boss for when you're learning it without having to re-form the group and go back through.
The res limit really only does one thing: It makes it harder for groups (as a group) to learn the fights. The people who farm or compete for top leaderboard slots don't die really at all, and far less than the 36 res count. It's not like it matters anyway for leaderboard anyways, since each res adds to your time.
Alternatively, look at the resevoir for the arena: 100 souls. That gets you several looks at different waves (as well as having a reserve) without having to re-form and head back in. Frankly, I doubt anyone would have beaten it on PTS if it had a ~30 res count.
Even putting the res count more in-line with arena (~90-100) would help, as it means you can get 6-8 pulls on the boss you're working on.1 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭You should not be doing trials until you are Vet12 (this was before patch, now it should be v14), and not until you have a good enough gear setup attained from crafting or farming. If you have those things and you know how to press 2 buttons, you should have enough dps for all of the bosses, with maybe the exception of wispmother. Now, if you do not fulfill this criteria you should not be doing the trials. I have heard v4's and v8's complain that the trials are too hard...why are those people even in there it is not content meant for them. While they could be carried through it, it will always be to the detriment of the group. So get your crafting done, level your toon and you should be good to go, provided you can play your class at least half decently...0 -
Sasky✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »You should not be doing trials until you are Vet12 (this was before patch, now it should be v14), and not until you have a good enough gear setup attained from crafting or farming. If you have those things and you know how to press 2 buttons, you should have enough dps for all of the bosses, with maybe the exception of wispmother. Now, if you do not fulfill this criteria you should not be doing the trials. I have heard v4's and v8's complain that the trials are too hard...why are those people even in there it is not content meant for them. While they could be carried through it, it will always be to the detriment of the group. So get your crafting done, level your toon and you should be good to go, provided you can play your class at least half decently...
Now, how much of that would be change by increasing or removing the soul resevoir limit?
If you don't have the DPS you won't make it regardless. It's not going to make it easier for v4 or v8 players.
What it is going to do is let a group get multiple attempts at a single boss to
1) Help get transitions smoother.
2) Help get used to mechanics for avoiding the damage. (Ex: Wispmother. First couple of times for most people, either they take more damage or their DPS rotation suffers.)
3) Get used to trials-style DPS. This is different than PvP, vet dungeons, or arena. (Or even DPS in general, as they may have primarily played a healer or tank.)
@hedna123b14_ESO Rather than go off on how easy trials are in general (then contradict yourself by saying don't show up unless you're max level and decently optimized), how about adding something constructive for/against the idea?0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »You should not be doing trials until you are Vet12 (this was before patch, now it should be v14), and not until you have a good enough gear setup attained from crafting or farming. If you have those things and you know how to press 2 buttons, you should have enough dps for all of the bosses, with maybe the exception of wispmother. Now, if you do not fulfill this criteria you should not be doing the trials. I have heard v4's and v8's complain that the trials are too hard...why are those people even in there it is not content meant for them. While they could be carried through it, it will always be to the detriment of the group. So get your crafting done, level your toon and you should be good to go, provided you can play your class at least half decently...
Now, how much of that would be change by increasing or removing the soul resevoir limit?
If you don't have the DPS you won't make it regardless. It's not going to make it easier for v4 or v8 players.
What it is going to do is let a group get multiple attempts at a single boss to
1) Help get transitions smoother.
2) Help get used to mechanics for avoiding the damage. (Ex: Wispmother. First couple of times for most people, either they take more damage or their DPS rotation suffers.)
3) Get used to trials-style DPS. This is different than PvP, vet dungeons, or arena. (Or even DPS in general, as they may have primarily played a healer or tank.)
@hedna123b14_ESO Rather than go off on how easy trials are in general (then contradict yourself by saying don't show up unless you're max level and decently optimized), how about adding something constructive for/against the idea?
1. Soul reservoir is a punishment in place for unprepared groups. And endgame content should be hard and thus only available to geared and prepared groups.
2. Getting the Mechanics down is important but if you could indefinitely try running a boss, it would be easier to pin down his mechanics, thus again the soul reservoir is an additional hurdle.
3. Getting used to Trials dps in AA and HRC? The mechanics for dps are super easy to achieve if you have a good raid leader. The dps mechanics in those two are much easier than Normal Arena.
4. Contradicting myself? Actually I think I made the point really clear. Why WOULD it be ok for you to run trials when you are not max level? Trials are endgame content, which is by definition reserved for max level players. I mentioned that our pug ran with low V's in order to again reaffirm the fact of how easy trials were, that you don't even need to be max level until you get to Wispmother in AA.
5. With the advent of Sanctum Ophidia I am thoroughly satisfied. That place so far is brutal and that is how trials should be...hopefully they will not nerf it.
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Sasky✭✭✭1&2: Ok, so you think it's a suitable punishment for a group to have to re-form and run back through. So we just disagree there, fair enough. It basically comes in as a time sink for the learning process. No other part of the game has this sort of block on just learning by doing. Vet dungeons and arena (normal mode) both let you res without limit so you have a chance to actually learn the fight. There -- if get to a new boss that no one has seen before, you just hop in and get a look at what's going on. Trials -- if get to new boss no one has seen before, first look it up because a wipe is over 1/3 of your res limit.
3: I was more referring to the fact of personal dps rotation. Trials pull a lot of people that normally heal or tank off to dps. And some classes (Templar) need to put in a lot of work to meet threshold DPS.
4: Why? The trials are listed v10-v12 for first two. Sure, you don't have much grounds to complain coming in lower level than that, but definitely shouldn't tell people wait until V14 before even attempt.
Tuning/difficulty is a separate issue, and varies per-fight, but basically the fights should be hard in themselves, not because of highly limited opportunity to see the boss.0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭1&2: Ok, so you think it's a suitable punishment for a group to have to re-form and run back through. So we just disagree there, fair enough. It basically comes in as a time sink for the learning process. No other part of the game has this sort of block on just learning by doing. Vet dungeons and arena (normal mode) both let you res without limit so you have a chance to actually learn the fight. There -- if get to a new boss that no one has seen before, you just hop in and get a look at what's going on. Trials -- if get to new boss no one has seen before, first look it up because a wipe is over 1/3 of your res limit.
3: I was more referring to the fact of personal dps rotation. Trials pull a lot of people that normally heal or tank off to dps. And some classes (Templar) need to put in a lot of work to meet threshold DPS.
4: Why? The trials are listed v10-v12 for first two. Sure, you don't have much grounds to complain coming in lower level than that, but definitely shouldn't tell people wait until V14 before even attempt.
Tuning/difficulty is a separate issue, and varies per-fight, but basically the fights should be hard in themselves, not because of highly limited opportunity to see the boss.
1. AA Trial - (45 minutes at most) 4 bosses, 36 lives - 9 lives per boss. HRC - (45 minutes at most)4 bosses - 9 lives per boss. Arena (2 hours at least)- 20 bosses (Since most areas spawn 2), 100 lives - 4 lives per boss....how is Arena more fair?
2. Endgame content should be hard to do with a pug, otherwise organized groups would quit.
3. You should be doing AA and HRC at v12 if you want to have a good fast and successful run. Combination of difficulty and limited opportunity seems appropriate. Or you could just do the raid lockouts option...0 -
Sasky✭✭✭1. Normal mode arena = no res limits and no leaderboard. You can actually learn the fights without having to drop partway through and work back to your current boss. The mechanics, while not identical to veteran mode, do carry over and give you decent prep for it.
2. Organized groups will (almost) always finish it easier and faster than a pickup group. However, encouraging pickup grouping is something that ESO (or any MMO really) should encourage as much as possible to get players more interested in the game.0 -
Spawn✭✭✭It can easily take you a full hour to clear to the Last Boss in Sanctum Ophidia , and most guilds are going to kill the First Boss in a average of about 10min which is slower then what you can do both AA and Hel Ra speed runs in.
Thus for the short trials 36 might be fine, but half of what makes Sanctum Ophidia hard and why it hasn't been cleared is that its easy to lose lives just clearing to the last boss and only getting 1 maybe 2 attempts, this might be fine for say the hardmode version which you could say toggle at the start of the instance and lower lives, but for the standard run I imagine that its starting to cause frustration for lots of guilds trying to kill serpent.
Our guild has only put in about 16 hours time in there and i know other guilds have put upwards of 60-100 hours + PTS time, i would say for Sanctum Ophidia something like 120 souls would be much more enjoyable, the content is much more challenging then the previous raids, so they don't need the 36 buffer to add difficulty the fights alone are good at doing that, they can get away with having more souls for sure,Hexspawn
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