60 days of researching traits for crafting. Getting cloth, smith, woodworking to 50. Get the traits, put he time in. It outweighs any time im put into raiding pvp dungeons. The cost of getting yellow mats. Enough so i dont always lose them. I dont gold farm. I cant play 10 hours a day. Maybe 2 to 4 hours. Couple times a week till weekends. I like the system.

I do think trials should have sets a little better than things i can craft. As it stands i woudnt switch out my sets for trial gear armor weapons.

I totally agree with the OP. It is no hidden secret, that gear chase is a long-term motivator to keep playing a MMO.

What about equivalence of crafted gear vs. raid items? Again..it is no secret that if you put a lot of effort into your gear, you will be somewhat angry/disappointed when someone else can get gear as good as yours by not even putting 30% the effort into it.

It's like you are working hard 60 hours/week to get this nice nice black new car, spending 20k € into it and then you get to know that someone else got the same car (just with a white colour) for 10k€. I bet you would be pi****.

Yes it is that simple...everyone could read about motivators and psychological effects in a book about social psychology. Or you just rely on your common sense.

ESO being different to other MMOs doesn't mean, it has to refuse mechanisms that work well. ESO would still be a very brilliant game (and in my oppinion an even better one) when implementing long-term motivators. Since the game is missing real long-term motivators. Gear chase is ONE major motvator.

lukelenb16_ESO wrote: »

I totally agree with the OP. It is no hidden secret, that gear chase is a long-term motivator to keep playing a MMO.

What about equivalence of crafted gear vs. raid items? Again..it is no secret that if you put a lot of effort into your gear, you will be somewhat angry/disappointed when someone else can get gear as good as yours by not even putting 30% the effort into it.

It's like you are working hard 60 hours/week to get this nice nice black new car, spending 20k € into it and then you get to know that someone else got the same car (just with a white colour) for 10k€. I bet you would be pi****.

Yes it is that simple...everyone could read about motivators and psychological effects in a book about social psychology. Or you just rely on your common sense.

ESO being different to other MMOs doesn't mean, it has to refuse mechanisms that work well. ESO would still be a very brilliant game (and in my oppinion an even better one) when implementing long-term motivators. Since the game is missing real long-term motivators. Gear chase is ONE major motvator.

Just because crafting doesn't require you to go into dungeons and fight bosses doesn't make it nescessarily less time consuming to achieve. If they had the sets progressively get better as you get to the better stations then a crafter could theoretically have to wait longer to make all their gear. For a crafter to learn every trait in the game right now it means they will have to wait an entire year. True you don't need to learn every trait to get a good set. From beginning to end to learn 9 traits in 6 pieces (if you have all the passives)right now it will take approximately 5 months. 2.5 months for a crafter just learn three. If /when a 10 trait is added (and assuming they add another passive reducing it by another 5%), it will take a player ~ 7 months to learn 10 traits in 6 pieces, or 3.5 months for 3.

Guides will be made for dungeons, they will get easier as people get the new gear. So why is it that the focus should be in just one area? In all other games crafting is a joke, and it is due to the pve / pvp automatically providing better gear that it is so.

I think the answer here is twofold. First add more sources for legendary mats, make them drop from bosses in dungeons, as a rare reward in the mail rewards from PvP, this gives crafters, pvpers and pvers a way to acquire them. Balance the drop rates to prevent too much inflation and maybe increase the amount required to upgrade gear.

Second add more mounts, costumes, particle effects, pets, unique weapon looks, bags of holding, items with clicky buffs etc. To bosses, PvP rewards, and from some source for crafters.

This gives even max level max gear characters a reason do the content.

ESO right now is set up to be casual. By being casual, people play for a while and quit. If you like a game where people constantly get bored, then this is the game for you.

If you want a game where people group, raid and interact with guilds, you need some more significant desireable long term goals. Slow grind PVE or PVP gearing is one way to do that. So much of the current content merely encourages you to get an achievement, which means next to nothing, and never do it again.

In my opinion, ESO has a poor design structure for a MMO.

Crafting is way too easy in ESO. Everyone with any passing interest can make everything. If you want to have crafters able to make great gear, have it require genuinely rare components - very rare hireling returns, raid dropped components, DSA dropped components, extremely rare deconstruction returns - then couple it with great PVE and PVP rewards too. At the moment, you can gear up with next to peak gear in 5 minutes... and having done so, then what?

But...I suppose I just don't have the mindset of a MMO player, since this is my first MMO, so please don't laugh. Why would you play for gear rewards? Just...what is the point?o.O I mean, good gear is good because it can help you survive fights better/do better damage/whatever. Good gear can have some cool special look you can show off to other players(like Ebon, Worm and I think Saviour sets already do, for instance). But...how can it be the GOAL of the game? It's the means to an end.

I play this for awesome lore, amazing, beautiful world, friends I made in game and the fun we have together(or on our own, but it's mostly been together lately, dungeons, Arena and all). If there was no bigger point than gear for me, I wouldn't stay.

Also, IIRC, ZOS always said they want crafted gear to be best gear in the game. You can argue whether this is right or wrong, but it was always supposed to be that way and plenty of people like it. They seem to be walking pretty thin line now, trying to add fancy dropped sets but still keep crafted gear good. IMO they're doing pretty well - crafted gear is still good, but you have some fancy alternatives with different effects now if that's what you're after.

@MerusMalumb14_ESO
you should not have titled it 'gear chasing'. You could have skipped straight to the point (minus the wall) and merely typed: carrot chasing.
- despite their having announced the addition of extra tiers in the near future
- despite our having had so many mmos that are aaall about the carrot chase

Does your wish include, or are you indifferent to, the mentality of the carrot chasers? Because last i checked, once someone else launches a patch with yet bigger shinies, they jump ship and forget aaaall about how much they loved their previous game; ESO included
Or have you perhaps a remedy for that as well?
One other than making this yet another run of the mill MMO?

And no matter the level of impatience/immaturity characterising you, or the inability to go for different actually being different (even if only a little bit), do you not have the mental prowess necessary to discern how this is not a game about gear scoring? As it stands right now?

Yano one thing drives me crazy is how everyone seems to feel ESO is this unique MMO that's never been seen before. It has some rare features but it's hardly unique. That argument needs to go ASAP because it's not valid.

DDuke wrote: »

michael_bimson wrote: »

I do not agree with the OP, and the reason why has been espoused by others here: I don't have the time or the inclination for a massive gear grind.

I feel that player skill, not equipment should be the determining factor in the game, in PvP and PvE.

Yet it never will be. There will always be balance issues between classes or stamina/magicka, and the one with better build is, and always will be, inclined to win the fight (assuming we are talking about a 1v1 PvP scenario or PvE encounter). If you think I'm wrong, please point out one MMO where all classes and builds are balanced.

I don't think you are wrong, but then you don't think I am wrong either. I said equipment should not be the deciding factor. You said that having the skill to select the right abilities is the determining factor. There will always be balance issues, you need to have the skill to work around them. We agree.

DDuke wrote: »

In case of larger scale PvP, there will always be an uneven amount of people fighting against people of different levels & uncertain talent. Fair? No, nor should it be. Only way an MMO can have "fair" PvP is by having Arenas with matchmaking system (pitting you against equally performing opponents, regardless of their gear). That would also grant you a way to earn better gear with skillful play, instead of spending lots of time doing something.

Being able to organise and motivate a large amount of people is a skill which people in real life are often rewarded quite well for. Again we are in agreement, it is not gear that is the determining factor in AvA it is numbers and/or skill.

DDuke wrote: »

michael_bimson wrote: »

I appreciate that some players wish to raid, some wish to PvP, some wish to small group. It is in satisfying these disparate groups that ZOS makes money.

Nevertheless where I feel that the OP has erred in citing the gear grind as the end function of ESO (a gear grind will alienate all players PvE and PvP who do not have the time or inclination to take part in the grind. They will fall behind and not be competitive in game leading to cancellation, therefore this cannot be the end goal). Gear should be the means to a different end - playing a fun game!

Here's the thing, most end-game PvErs are in fact alienated by the lack of gear progression and there's very little reward for doing PvP.

You have chosen to play a game that currently does not follow a gear grind progression system and are agitating for it to be changed. Maybe you erred in your choice of game and should consider something that caters to your preferred play style.

DDuke wrote: »

So let me get this straight, you can't find time or reason to play the game, and expect everything to get handed out for free to you, because all PvErs should do the same dungeons for 917th time for fun? It is fun the first time you clear a dungeon, then it starts to get boring really quick when you realize all that drops is utter garbage.

You seem to be arguing with someone else. I have a reason to play (I enjoy playing the game, funnily enough) but I cannot always find the time, I am an adult, I have obligations other than to my own enjoyment, nevertheless I do not "expect everything to be handed out for free" to me, I fully expect to never have some equipment and/or titles because of the constraints on my game playing, but that doesn't mean that I should be dominated by a player using a substandard build but who has been carried through numerous trials by their guildmates.

I fully appreciate that constantly and repeatedly completing content will get tired. This is why there are currently 5 single player Elder Scrolls games and why Bethesda didn't sit back and relax after Arena thinking they had cornered the market in RPGs. This is also why I originally qualified by comment by saying that "ZOS must focus on new content and new challenges to overcome" so that you are not constantly replaying the same content. If ZOS can keep to their 4-6 week release timescale I would find that acceptable, I hope that you would too.

DDuke wrote: »

michael_bimson wrote: »

I don't PvP in Cyrodiil because I want better gear, I PvP because I enjoy the challenge of fighting other players over a massive map with many objectives. I doubt I will ever be Emperor, I don't have the time but I can still take one out on occasion and former Emperors more often, because, despite the time they've taken to earn that achievement, we're not so different. The time they've taken has rewarded them with new skills (avatar and player (hopefully)), not substantially better gear than me.

Equally if I don't fancy PvP, I am happy to join a group and PvE. But I don't PvE to find good gear, I PvE to overcome a challenge set by a game designer and to enjoy the story, ESO has excelled in this aspect. Its fun to solo, and it is fun to share that experience with others, to revel in overcoming a situation together.

The content you're describing is fun for the first couple of times you do it, but it lacks replayability. I've become Emperor, I've taken the same keeps & scrolls hundreds or thousands of times, yet I have nothing to show for it, except a "Former Emperor" title which everyone and their mother have.

We must differ in opinion on PvP, I am still entertained (most of the time, the dead campaigns dominated by one faction with the only player present being the emperor, sitting on their throne and observing an empty world in the hope that someone else will show up so they can completely destroy them are a bit depressing). That's not to say it doesn't need work, it does, but fun can still be found, for me. I appreciate that you have become bored of it and new PvP content would be a welcome addition to provide more variety and choice.

DDuke wrote: »

michael_bimson wrote: »

In summary, I think that a gear grind is a cover for poor gameplay and ZOS should just focus on new game content and new challenges to overcome. I fear that a gear grind will alienate casual players like me, slowly making us less competitive and leading to our leaving ESO. If new gear must come in, then it should be more specialised, not more powerful, and with the number of potential builds available (after more balancing) this should keep ZOS going for quite some time.

No, gear progression is something that encourages people who spend more than 2 hours a week populating the game server to keep playing. No wonder it is getting harder and harder to find groups in this game if only casuals who log in twice a week keep playing.

I'll just say I play more often than that, as it is an irrelevant point. Its not hard to find groups either, and again you are straying off topic. You are straying into a thinly veiled personal attack and all this does is undermine your argument, which, up until now, was politely made.

DDuke wrote: »

It's an MMO, you need to have a level of competitiveness in it and things to "show off". It sounds to me like you'd be happier playing a single player game or GW2.

I've not played Guild Wars 2 so cannot comment. But you are right that I do like single player games, they, too, are fun. I've sunk over 1,000 hours into Skyrim and I still find things that I have not seen before (minor things, but still).

However I don't agree with you about the function of MMOs. It seems you like to play them because it makes you feel superior to others and the gear grind is a visual representation of this. I do not believe that this is a healthy position to adopt and I cannot say the same. I play ESO because I enjoy the story (for the most part), I enjoy helping out my guildmates in a dungeon run, I enjoy finding some overlooked corner of the map with a gorgeous vista that some poor *** has worked on for hours only for people to breeze past it, I enjoy sniping light armour wearers into the ground in Cyrodiil, I enjoyed the end of the main quest (that was awesome). One weekend soon I hope that I will be able to enjoy Dragonstar Arena too when my guildmates and my time in game coincides enough.

Do I feel the need to berate people for not being VR14 already? No. Do I feel the need to parade my Tamriel Angler title around the gameworld and laugh in the faces of all those who are merely Pact, Covenant or Dominion Anglers? No. (Also I don't actually have that achievement, but I use it for illustrative purposes only.) Do I feel the need to define myself by my ability to defeat a game mechanic that was designed to be defeated? No.

Play the game that you want to play, but don't join a game that doesn't have the features you want and then try and change it to match your expectations.

PS.
To all those who have actually read this: sorry for the long post!

The main issue that we're talking about isn't just about loot. The problem is the reward system, overall. I like getting gear for doing harder content, but I'd be happy with other rewards if they made sense. Why not tie crafting in and have rare recipes or rare mats as rewards? I'm sure all the people complaining about gear could come up with other rewards they'd like to see.

One of the biggest complaints about the VR system was that it seemed to be a grind. This was because from 1-50 you are gaining new skills every few levels, getting access to new passives, gaining attribute and skill points, and just getting a feeling of progressing. Post VR, all of this stops. You adventure through an entire zone and your only reward is the display changing your level number and your soft caps increasing, which most people don't even realize.

As for gear, there is no point. How many RPGs have you ever played where you knew it was worthless to open that chest you found while adventuring? We all know that all you're going to get is a worthless green item, and maybe a soul gem. There is not even a glimmer of hope that the chest could contain some mystical item that would make your day.

The other issue is coming from the people against rewards is that they think this is a game of exploration, wandering around, seeing the sights, and talking to all the NPCs. Saying that the game is good as it is and we don't need rewards is looking at this in the very short term.This is not an open world, sandbox type of game. This game has linear progression and you will eventually explore the entire world.

The "carrot on the stick" analogy works and is accurate. Many people want this incentive and is what keeps a large part of the player base subscribed. Many more will realize this when they get to the end and find there is nothing else to explore and little to no reason to continue to do the same dungeons over and over again.

Many of us were hoping that PvP would be the answer to the end-game dilemna but the abundance of issues have turned people away from that, as well.

MerusMalumb14_ESO wrote: »

Hello, I hope I am putting this is the correct place. Let me begin with, I love what the ESO teams have made into the game so far, first person, awesome lore, in depth crafting and a better combat than I have seen in an MMO. The one thing I do feel like we are missing a little bit, and maybe it is there but not obvious enough for me, and thus other players, to see is the gear chasing.

* So right now it seems like any mid range and high end gear has a very small gap that does not justify price and doesn't drive much of a gear chase.

* Right now it appears that everyone makes gear sets in certain combos to achieve certain stats, which is great, but I feel like crafted gear should only ever get you to mid ranged gear. Also it is kind of disheartening to see how cookie cutter the crafting world has become for instance "5 piece Hunding's Rage and 3 piece Ashen Grip for Nightblade" I think that is okay and should be allowed but should not be high end gear and should only go to mid range and all of these noobish cookie cutters should be trumped by someone who has been putting up the pvp effort and has a full set of elite gear. Which brings me to my next point.

* The elite pvp gear. It costs a stagering 220k AP but when you compare it to the midrange counterpart, we notice a very small gap, as I mentioned before that gap should be blown much more open. The cost is fine, in my opinion, but that gear should be dramatically better and totally justify spending days to grind up all of those AP's. A players in full elite pvp gear should dominate any players in mid range gear button mashing some cheap ability rotation.

* Admittedly I have not done an overwhelming amount of veteran dungeons but I think that they should have a piece of high end gear drop off of final boss and have a daily cooldown on that boss' drop so that people can not just farm a dungeon but have to do all of these dungeons trying to get the piece they want to drop, and will also have to group up and do these daily to get that badass gear that they are going for. This would keep players logging on daily trying to get those daily vet dungeons completed and trying to get that gear, in addition the daily veteran dungeon quest, and upon killing that final boss should give some form of points that can earn you good gear so that even if you have ran these dungeons for the past couple of weeks but have not gotten those drops can still just buy some gear.

* On veteran dungeons I also believe that they should be able to scale to max veteran rank, so for instance all veteran dungeons should be able to be ran at rank 14 and get the respective gear for that rank.

* Chase gear, not levels! You guys are expanding the game, and I appreciate that all, but I am starting to get worried with two level expansions in a couple of months, I believe level expansions are necessary, but closer to once a year, or biyearly. In the meantime give us this awesome content but instead of raising that level max give us more in depth and higher gear, make it the seasons of gear for instance, "that high end summer gear you have on right now work for everything but is only like the mid ranged autumn gear!" In which case we would want to get out there and get some of that gear!

Just as a side note before I go please be very careful with adding levels, we already have to go from 1-50 which is a lot already, but then we have to grind, 10, no 12, no 14 veteran ranks already. If I make a new character I don't want to go through 50 levels and 22 veteran ranks, first at all, and secondly definitely not if I have done it already. Just please keep level max in check and start expanding on that gear! Thank you ESO team! I hope that I see some of this in game as it will make the game for myself, as well as many, many other people, I am sure, vastly expanded and will truly have our favorite part of an MMO involved, whether they realize that is the hook, or not.

Sincerely, your hardcore fan since Morrowind.
Mathew (Cruentus).

i thing about the gear the real problem are the softcaps. i am curenlty running an imperial dk and i wear vr12 armor just blue not legendary not even epic and my hp armor spell resist dmg are overcarged. so basicaly its piontless to craft vr14 gear and to make it legendary...

As soon as you require dungeons to obtain the best gear, it's no longer "play it your way." Folks who enjoy crafting, but not dungeons, are suddenly out of luck. And folks who enjoy dungeons are given an advantage in PvP.

The carrots in ESO are developing skill and doing things you enjoy. Like others, I've done my raiding for set gear and have no interest in getting back on that treadmill.