Why arena PVP can't work in ESO.

philip.ploegerb16_ESO · September 2014

I'm looking forward to Arena-PvP and I don't see how people lose their ability to analyze and adapt in PvP like the OP says. Good players have and keep that ability. The truely good groups don't ask for it though.

Koopest · September 2014

arena ruined wow. will ruin ESO either. 100%

Koopest · September 2014

i don't know why ppl still wants instanced & organized pvp in MMO. there is Dota2 and LOL which is just made for instanced & organized pvp. go play dota2 or LOL if you want that kind of pvp. What we need is not the Arena system which ruined Wow but fixing broken things and improving Cyrodill war stuffs

philip.ploegerb16_ESO · September 2014

Koopest wrote: »

i don't know why ppl still wants instanced & organized pvp in MMO. there is Dota2 and LOL which is just made for instanced & organized pvp. go play dota2 or LOL if you want that kind of pvp. What we need is not Arena system which ruined Wow but fixing broken things and improving Cyrodill war stuffs

There are people that like to have breaks from all the Cyrodil-blob-zergs and enjoy some small-scale fights.

And fyi: WoW wasn't destroyed by Arena-PvP, it's well alive. Arguments like that are completely stupid, following arguments like Cyrodil will be destroyed by Arena-PvP are even more stupid.
It's just your playstyle, and you want your playstyle to get the most attention, but you need to learn to accept that there are other people too.

Koopest · September 2014

philip.ploegerb16_ESO wrote: »

Koopest wrote: »

i don't know why ppl still wants instanced & organized pvp in MMO. there is Dota2 and LOL which is just made for instanced & organized pvp. go play dota2 or LOL if you want that kind of pvp. What we need is not Arena system which ruined Wow but fixing broken things and improving Cyrodill war stuffs

There are people that like to have breaks from all the Cyrodil-blob-zergs and enjoy some small-scale fights.

And fyi: WoW wasn't destroyed by Arena-PvP, it's well alive. Arguments like that are completely stupid, following arguments like Cyrodil will be destroyed by Arena-PvP are even more stupid.
It's just your playstyle, and you want your playstyle to get the most attention, but you need to learn to accept that there are other people too.

you can do small scale pvp in Cyrodill. done.

sometime it's rly annoying for me to hang around Cyrodill to find oppents for small scale fight, but i don't complain. cuz this is the way war is. ppl wanting arena for small scale pvp? actually, they just want " quick. easy. convenient " fight. queing for arena, que pop, LET's fight!!!! , done. queing for arena, que pop , LET"S fight!!!!!! done. repeat.

instanced pvp in MMO is just like junk food. easy pick , tasty... but not healthy for you.

NadiusMaximus · September 2014

If they gave us a third bar it would be fine.
1. General all purpose
2. Anti mage
3. Anti melee

Not gonna happen, but it be a thought.

firstdecan · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

I love PvP, but I haven't always loved it...
A wise man once told me: you learn the most from the fights you don't win.

Good post. I think you hit on two important issues:
PvP can be a shock for PvE players when they start, and an unpleasant one. In PvE, you expect to win all your fights. In PvP, winning half of them is pretty good. The goalposts have moved quite dramatically.

Those losses are how you learn. If you have an instinct to re-examine just what the heck happened, you can often adjust something in your build or behavior. Oddly, many people who are excellent about this in endgame PvE somehow lose that mindset in PvP.

I'm another former PvE-only player who made the switch to PvP-primary. For me, that was a while back (Warhammer Online launch). I've enjoyed MMO's quite a bit more since

I'm afraid the problem with this willingness to adapt and learn is directly due to the combat system in this game not allowing it.

In other games I could have DOZENS of abilities on my bar, and "adapt" on the fly by using whichever were appropriate to the encounter. In this game, I am locked into 5 abilities per bar, and cannot change them unless out of combat.

Also, completely changing your build to negate one ability leaves you in the same boat. The next encounter is completely different, but you are still in combat until the entire siege/skirmish/resource attack/healing ticks/nearby squirrels has ended and you are finally out of combat to change your setup again.

This makes PVP in this game completely stupid IMO. No adaptability, no intelligent play, just create entire builds to counter one class's ability and die to the next class. Pick your cards before going into a fight, and die to whatever class you encounter that negates it because this game doesn't let you adapt.

This is why arena-style PVP could never work in this game. Balance is impossible with this current combat-locked implementation of the 5-skill bar system.

Actually, I would welcome this for exactly the reasons you say it won't work. I think you may also appreciate this rationale.

Before I begin, a little background. One of the reasons an online game is good for game companies is because it's the best market research they can have for their product. They can monitor what everyone is doing in game, see what people like doing, see what they don't like doing, and run any kind of analysis against anything they can think of in order to improve their product. The difficulty comes with scale: how do you perform measurements in an environment where everything is mashed together?

This is the problem they have with "balance" in this game, particularly with PvP. They don't have a mechanism to truly isolate how the classes perform against each other. They can see how many characters are killing other characters with particular builds or abilities, or how many characters are lasting long in battles with other builds, but it's hard to capture the reasons behind those in a zerg v zerg situation because of the vast number of variables they would have to account for.

In 1v1 arena style combat, they have better isolation. It's build vs build and much less to track. They could view the fight as a linear sequence of events, at which time it will be obvious where class imbalances exist. Once the imbalances are better identified, they can much more effectively tweak builds to turn combat into the "chess match" that it should be (maybe rock paper scissors lizard spock is a better analogy). It won't be perfect, 1v1 will not give them good data on the use of AoE against groups, but it will be better for isolation and metric gathering than a chaotic battlefield.

I don't disagree that adaptability is limited with only 5 slots, and currently it is fairly easy for certain classes to build in such a way that they can completely counter another class, but honestly I see this, at least in the long term, as a cure. It will take them some time to gather appropriate data and play around with some tweaking options, but overall I think it will add to the health of the game.

Spottswoode · September 2014

firstdecan wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

I love PvP, but I haven't always loved it...
A wise man once told me: you learn the most from the fights you don't win.

Good post. I think you hit on two important issues:
PvP can be a shock for PvE players when they start, and an unpleasant one. In PvE, you expect to win all your fights. In PvP, winning half of them is pretty good. The goalposts have moved quite dramatically.

Those losses are how you learn. If you have an instinct to re-examine just what the heck happened, you can often adjust something in your build or behavior. Oddly, many people who are excellent about this in endgame PvE somehow lose that mindset in PvP.

I'm another former PvE-only player who made the switch to PvP-primary. For me, that was a while back (Warhammer Online launch). I've enjoyed MMO's quite a bit more since

I'm afraid the problem with this willingness to adapt and learn is directly due to the combat system in this game not allowing it.

In other games I could have DOZENS of abilities on my bar, and "adapt" on the fly by using whichever were appropriate to the encounter. In this game, I am locked into 5 abilities per bar, and cannot change them unless out of combat.

Also, completely changing your build to negate one ability leaves you in the same boat. The next encounter is completely different, but you are still in combat until the entire siege/skirmish/resource attack/healing ticks/nearby squirrels has ended and you are finally out of combat to change your setup again.

This makes PVP in this game completely stupid IMO. No adaptability, no intelligent play, just create entire builds to counter one class's ability and die to the next class. Pick your cards before going into a fight, and die to whatever class you encounter that negates it because this game doesn't let you adapt.

This is why arena-style PVP could never work in this game. Balance is impossible with this current combat-locked implementation of the 5-skill bar system.

Actually, I would welcome this for exactly the reasons you say it won't work. I think you may also appreciate this rationale.

Before I begin, a little background. One of the reasons an online game is good for game companies is because it's the best market research they can have for their product. They can monitor what everyone is doing in game, see what people like doing, see what they don't like doing, and run any kind of analysis against anything they can think of in order to improve their product. The difficulty comes with scale: how do you perform measurements in an environment where everything is mashed together?

This is the problem they have with "balance" in this game, particularly with PvP. They don't have a mechanism to truly isolate how the classes perform against each other. They can see how many characters are killing other characters with particular builds or abilities, or how many characters are lasting long in battles with other builds, but it's hard to capture the reasons behind those in a zerg v zerg situation because of the vast number of variables they would have to account for.

In 1v1 arena style combat, they have better isolation. It's build vs build and much less to track. They could view the fight as a linear sequence of events, at which time it will be obvious where class imbalances exist. Once the imbalances are better identified, they can much more effectively tweak builds to turn combat into the "chess match" that it should be (maybe rock paper scissors lizard spock is a better analogy). It won't be perfect, 1v1 will not give them good data on the use of AoE against groups, but it will be better for isolation and metric gathering than a chaotic battlefield.

I don't disagree that adaptability is limited with only 5 slots, and currently it is fairly easy for certain classes to build in such a way that they can completely counter another class, but honestly I see this, at least in the long term, as a cure. It will take them some time to gather appropriate data and play around with some tweaking options, but overall I think it will add to the health of the game.

This is exactly why the argument of "class balance" never made a whole lot of sense to me. The wild and dynamic environment of field warfare basically made pinpoint analysis impossible. With the controlled environment of an arena, you get much more concise data.

Cogo · September 2014

firstdecan wrote: »

I don't disagree that adaptability is limited with only 5 slots, and currently it is fairly easy for certain classes to build in such a way that they can completely counter another class, but honestly I see this, at least in the long term, as a cure. It will take them some time to gather appropriate data and play around with some tweaking options, but overall I think it will add to the health of the game.

At first, I was not sure if you replied as your own view, what is important just for you. Or if you considered the ramifications of each "Tweak" in any area of ESO.

Reading your post, shows the opposite. Not only are you considering the wide span of Tamriel. But also the long term effects on Tamriel, where everything is connected in some way or another.

I highlighted the most important part about combat in ESO. The skill bar.
That is THE tool and reason why so many new things can be put in the game in the future without unbalancing things.

So what if any combination can counter any other specific combination?
The action bars prevent you from using 20 macros. You choose all the time what skills to slot! Do not blame the game if you choose "wrong". Personal skill is a factor....

People seam to keep forgetting this simple fact:
Tamriel is evolving in major steps every 4-6 weeks, with constant "work" on balancing, features, fixes, adding player requested "things", like Jerkings. (Jerkings was a pure request from the community. Zenimax took it, built it and I do like my "monk" to look male!)

Launch was the beginning, not the end product. So far, "only" 5 years content is planned, made, remade, removed or released as the planned time-frame.
There is more to come and any changes must adapt to them.

ESO status in may, 5 MONTHS ago:
elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2014/05/01/the-road-ahead---may-1st

Any comment how ESO is not delivering what they say?

ESO is not just PvP. Nor PvE, Or pink RP players, in a swimming contest in Rift, where the lizard always wins.....its all of them!

ESO is not parts you like and ignore the rest.
Your choice what you do in ESO, is not the same as demanding the same effects you choose to ignore. A solo player who demands the same rewards as the hardest arena......without doing it?

A PvE player who's group or guild can not overcome a specific event in game, like trials, does not give them any right to a "lower" way to do it.

PvP players who only even looks outside Tamriel when they "have too".
I still do not understand how anyone can play ESO so long, and just do one thing?
ESO is not War in Cyrodiil. That is one PART.

However
Cyrodiil MUST evolve along with Tamriel. Be creative Zenimax. Just like every ninja added npc, quest, hidden item like a note that has no use other then read it.
It can be small things....but something! And no! No damn arena...justice system will do that fine. Yes, yes, yes. The capital City will be great.
Need more PvP related "things" in Cyro as well! I am a PvE player who says this........

Balances and changes
Tamriel is a complete, living, breathing, evolving world, where many features and play styles is offered. "Choose your path", must be known to most players by now?
Tamriels history and future is written by those who live there.....that's us players, btw. This is what ESO is. You choose to not PvP? That is your choice and anything else you do, is up to you. Can't get what you want in Cyro? Your choice.
NOT YOUR RIGHT! Get the difference!

ESO offers game play for several kinds of play styles and interest is not the same as ESO "must" offer "my" area "THIS"!

Zenimax is working daily and "ninja" fix things all the time.

The balance and something is overpowered blah blah.
ITS LESS overpowered for those who only know how to play a DK in robe with a stick....
Its EASIER for those who plays a sorcerer in heavy armor with 2H.

Stamina "builds" are a HUGE difference today, then a month ago. And the month before that.

The problem is not in game balance. The problem is player balance. At least consider if you are the one who needs to do something better....adapt?

PBpsy · September 2014

Koopest wrote: »

philip.ploegerb16_ESO wrote: »

Koopest wrote: »

i don't know why ppl still wants instanced & organized pvp in MMO. there is Dota2 and LOL which is just made for instanced & organized pvp. go play dota2 or LOL if you want that kind of pvp. What we need is not Arena system which ruined Wow but fixing broken things and improving Cyrodill war stuffs

There are people that like to have breaks from all the Cyrodil-blob-zergs and enjoy some small-scale fights.

And fyi: WoW wasn't destroyed by Arena-PvP, it's well alive. Arguments like that are completely stupid, following arguments like Cyrodil will be destroyed by Arena-PvP are even more stupid.
It's just your playstyle, and you want your playstyle to get the most attention, but you need to learn to accept that there are other people too.

you can do small scale pvp in Cyrodill. done.

sometime it's rly annoying for me to hang around Cyrodill to find oppents for small scale fight, but i don't complain. cuz this is the way war is. ppl wanting arena for small scale pvp? actually, they just want " quick. easy. convenient " fight. queing for arena, que pop, LET's fight!!!! , done. queing for arena, que pop , LET"S fight!!!!!! done. repeat.

instanced pvp in MMO is just like junk food. easy pick , tasty... but not healthy for you.

Yes. exactly that and that's why arena PVP can't come soon enough. I am sorry but a lot of us are not that interested in inconvenient , slow, laggy,zerg pvp that is terribly imbalanced by the number of player in or faction or who can get more keeps and buffs. Yeah. some people play games for fun not self torture. What a strange concept indeed.

Koopest · September 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

Koopest wrote: »

philip.ploegerb16_ESO wrote: »

Koopest wrote: »

i don't know why ppl still wants instanced & organized pvp in MMO. there is Dota2 and LOL which is just made for instanced & organized pvp. go play dota2 or LOL if you want that kind of pvp. What we need is not Arena system which ruined Wow but fixing broken things and improving Cyrodill war stuffs

There are people that like to have breaks from all the Cyrodil-blob-zergs and enjoy some small-scale fights.

And fyi: WoW wasn't destroyed by Arena-PvP, it's well alive. Arguments like that are completely stupid, following arguments like Cyrodil will be destroyed by Arena-PvP are even more stupid.
It's just your playstyle, and you want your playstyle to get the most attention, but you need to learn to accept that there are other people too.

you can do small scale pvp in Cyrodill. done.

sometime it's rly annoying for me to hang around Cyrodill to find oppents for small scale fight, but i don't complain. cuz this is the way war is. ppl wanting arena for small scale pvp? actually, they just want " quick. easy. convenient " fight. queing for arena, que pop, LET's fight!!!! , done. queing for arena, que pop , LET"S fight!!!!!! done. repeat.

instanced pvp in MMO is just like junk food. easy pick , tasty... but not healthy for you.

Yes. exactly that and that's why arena PVP can't come soon enough. I am sorry but a lot of us are not that interested in inconvenient , slow, laggy,zerg pvp that is terribly imbalanced by the number of player in or faction or who can get more keeps and buffs. Yeah. some people play games for fun not self torture. What a strange concept indeed.

seems you need to think about the reason why EVE online doesn't have instanced pvp system.

PBpsy · September 2014

Koopest wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Koopest wrote: »

philip.ploegerb16_ESO wrote: »

Koopest wrote: »

i don't know why ppl still wants instanced & organized pvp in MMO. there is Dota2 and LOL which is just made for instanced & organized pvp. go play dota2 or LOL if you want that kind of pvp. What we need is not Arena system which ruined Wow but fixing broken things and improving Cyrodill war stuffs

There are people that like to have breaks from all the Cyrodil-blob-zergs and enjoy some small-scale fights.

And fyi: WoW wasn't destroyed by Arena-PvP, it's well alive. Arguments like that are completely stupid, following arguments like Cyrodil will be destroyed by Arena-PvP are even more stupid.
It's just your playstyle, and you want your playstyle to get the most attention, but you need to learn to accept that there are other people too.

you can do small scale pvp in Cyrodill. done.

sometime it's rly annoying for me to hang around Cyrodill to find oppents for small scale fight, but i don't complain. cuz this is the way war is. ppl wanting arena for small scale pvp? actually, they just want " quick. easy. convenient " fight. queing for arena, que pop, LET's fight!!!! , done. queing for arena, que pop , LET"S fight!!!!!! done. repeat.

instanced pvp in MMO is just like junk food. easy pick , tasty... but not healthy for you.

Yes. exactly that and that's why arena PVP can't come soon enough. I am sorry but a lot of us are not that interested in inconvenient , slow, laggy,zerg pvp that is terribly imbalanced by the number of player in or faction or who can get more keeps and buffs. Yeah. some people play games for fun not self torture. What a strange concept indeed.

seems you need to think about the reason why EVE online doesn't have instanced pvp system.

Seems you need to think why this is ESO and not EvE and why most players here probably do not play EVE currently. Apple=/=Orange

Cogo · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I'm afraid the problem with this willingness to adapt and learn is directly due to the combat system in this game not allowing it.

Please explain what you mean by this? The combat system IS forcing you to learn and adapt. The game allows it VERY well since YOU need to work out what works best for you? Not fast enough to roll? Don't use stamina reduction effect gear and claims block or break free costs to much? Costs me almost nothing!

I may have misunderstood what you wrote here. Mind shed some light WHAT is preventing you from learning and adapting?

In other games I could have DOZENS of abilities on my bar, and "adapt" on the fly by using whichever were appropriate to the encounter. In this game, I am locked into 5 abilities per bar, and cannot change them unless out of combat.

In other games I lost a level when I died and it took days of exping to gain a level.
So what? This is ESO.....not another game.

You adapt on the "fly" since you have more skills to choose from? Is not that preventing you from learning and adapting? If you could just figure out what button to push in every situation.....that's WoW mechanics.

You learn to play better and adapting by having the skill bar. And have to "sense" if you need to slot another skill or in many cases....you will simply not know what is "best", and have to depend on your skill and global "skills". Anyone can block.....

Also, completely changing your build to negate one ability leaves you in the same boat. The next encounter is completely different, but you are still in combat until the entire siege/skirmish/resource attack/healing ticks/nearby squirrels has ended and you are finally out of combat to change your setup again.

Again, you must explain to me how this is NOT making you learn and adapt?
It creates teamwork as a huge impact on your efforts.

I tanked events in the wrong build. At lower rank then I "need" to be.
Unless I am the best player on the server (I am on the other end on that scale), many things "guides" and forums says are impossible. I've done. Lower rank and "wrong build". Not on 1st or 15th try......but done.

This makes PVP in this game completely stupid IMO. No adaptability, no intelligent play, just create entire builds to counter one class's ability and die to the next class. Pick your cards before going into a fight, and die to whatever class you encounter that negates it because this game doesn't let you adapt.

Reflecting scales is getting reviewed. Without using it, I have done just what you say. I have to buff up 6 abilities, push my ultimate and jump into a group of 10-15 enemies and just block.....I glow like a christmas tree.....instead of waiting 8-10 seconds....everyone attacks and dies.

Instead of waiting 10 seconds and attack then....I'm toast.

I am not rude now. More of a statement. The combat system in ESO is forcing you to adapt, learn and use your wits.

You say it yourself. Pick your cards then adapt. You keep using the term "fight"?
5 players can win over 10, with teamwork, intelligence and fast players....
Or are you talking about 1v1? Even if you can 1v1, that's life in Tamriel.
Want to hear a secret? Bring friends.....

This is why arena-style PVP could never work in this game. Balance is impossible with this current combat-locked implementation of the 5-skill bar system.

You are half right. Arena style pvp will not be in ESO, because that's what Zenimax answered and stated the past 2 years. It does not fit.
The justice system gives you all the "dual" you want. As well as Cyrodiil.

With a guide for "best build" and where to farm it until it dropped. THAT's ruining PvP and the only reason you wun over another is because your gear and "rotation". Where do you find the intelligence in that?

The skill bar system IS to prevent huge unbalance with coming additions.

And yes, you are correct. Everyone will never be "balanced" in ESO.
Every type of play, build, encounter and player is unique....

But yes, it IS impossible to say what is the best. That's true and the core goal of ESO. They even leave what build works with what, up to the players.....not the developers.

The same build on 2 different players SHOULD have different outcomes.....thats the note on the back of the game you bought.

Mendoze · September 2014

More options is always a nice thing so I support PVP Arena, but I still fear AvA will die out if it comes. So many people are getting tired of blobs and unstability of Cyrodiil, so I predict that lots of players will join the arena battles rather than Cyrodiil if they can choose.

Vizier · September 2014

Shrug. I'm kinda looking forward to the arena and criminal systems.

OP states his case well but...in the end it's a matter of preference. Build choices matter in ESO. 10 actives with 2 ults is enough IMO, even if we only have access to 5 and 1 at a time.

I see that you don't like it but your argument isn't convincing that arena PvP won't work. There are certainly more balancing issues to address but that's another matter.

Rune_Relic · September 2014

Cogo wrote: »

The same build on 2 different players SHOULD have different outcomes.....thats the note on the back of the game you bought.

I'll answer that if I may....

1. 2 people with the same build should end in stalemate.
2. 2 people with differing builds (that are played to their optimum without error) should also stalemate.

That is my idea of a balanced system.....ie equality in combat = "balance".

At the moment this simply does not happen. The system was never designed to even allow it to happen.

1. There are 3 types of attack ...weapon, critical, spell. All demand unique treatment. All hence demand unique resource. As there is only 3 resource pools....each must have its own.

2. There are 3 types of defense... weapon, spell and reflex saves. All demand.....etc

3. Should people who focus all of their strength into one resource do damage with attack and defense of another resource ? No I shouldnt do massive spell & crit & weapon damage all at the same time...so % of weapon spell or crit damage should be biased according to resource allocation.

These kind of things I dont spout because its my idea and evrything else sucks....I put such things forward because they are the ONLY way to balance the maths and create the required combat everyone wants.

So in essence the same build on 2 different players should have a stalemate if played to the max....rather than a different outcome.

If I see two weapon masters go head to head I expect to see a battle last for days as in the stories of old in TES.

philip.ploegerb16_ESO · September 2014

Koopest wrote: »

philip.ploegerb16_ESO wrote: »

Koopest wrote: »

i don't know why ppl still wants instanced & organized pvp in MMO. there is Dota2 and LOL which is just made for instanced & organized pvp. go play dota2 or LOL if you want that kind of pvp. What we need is not Arena system which ruined Wow but fixing broken things and improving Cyrodill war stuffs

There are people that like to have breaks from all the Cyrodil-blob-zergs and enjoy some small-scale fights.

And fyi: WoW wasn't destroyed by Arena-PvP, it's well alive. Arguments like that are completely stupid, following arguments like Cyrodil will be destroyed by Arena-PvP are even more stupid.
It's just your playstyle, and you want your playstyle to get the most attention, but you need to learn to accept that there are other people too.

you can do small scale pvp in Cyrodill. done.

sometime it's rly annoying for me to hang around Cyrodill to find oppents for small scale fight, but i don't complain. cuz this is the way war is. ppl wanting arena for small scale pvp? actually, they just want " quick. easy. convenient " fight. queing for arena, que pop, LET's fight!!!! , done. queing for arena, que pop , LET"S fight!!!!!! done. repeat.

instanced pvp in MMO is just like junk food. easy pick , tasty... but not healthy for you.

Doing small-scale-pvp is extremely difficult in Cyrodil, because of the nature of forward camps, leaving the players with no need to run any distances but simply spawn next to a keep.

The argument about "Arena-PvP being like junk-food" I cannot support, I've played Warhammer Scenarios for 1.5y and I found them to be relaxing and refreshing at the same time. One knows exactly when one needs to focus on fighting and has breaks in between for chilling, to me that's more healthy than the constant pressure under which one is in Cyrodil.

Lionxoft · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

I love PvP, but I haven't always loved it...
A wise man once told me: you learn the most from the fights you don't win.

Good post. I think you hit on two important issues:
PvP can be a shock for PvE players when they start, and an unpleasant one. In PvE, you expect to win all your fights. In PvP, winning half of them is pretty good. The goalposts have moved quite dramatically.

Those losses are how you learn. If you have an instinct to re-examine just what the heck happened, you can often adjust something in your build or behavior. Oddly, many people who are excellent about this in endgame PvE somehow lose that mindset in PvP.

I'm another former PvE-only player who made the switch to PvP-primary. For me, that was a while back (Warhammer Online launch). I've enjoyed MMO's quite a bit more since

I'm afraid the problem with this willingness to adapt and learn is directly due to the combat system in this game not allowing it.

In other games I could have DOZENS of abilities on my bar, and "adapt" on the fly by using whichever were appropriate to the encounter. In this game, I am locked into 5 abilities per bar, and cannot change them unless out of combat.

Also, completely changing your build to negate one ability leaves you in the same boat. The next encounter is completely different, but you are still in combat until the entire siege/skirmish/resource attack/healing ticks/nearby squirrels has ended and you are finally out of combat to change your setup again.

This makes PVP in this game completely stupid IMO. No adaptability, no intelligent play, just create entire builds to counter one class's ability and die to the next class. Pick your cards before going into a fight, and die to whatever class you encounter that negates it because this game doesn't let you adapt.

This is why arena-style PVP could never work in this game. Balance is impossible with this current combat-locked implementation of the 5-skill bar system.

I played a game that only allowed you 6 abilities on your bar including your ultimate. Arena PvP is the only reason that game still exists to this day. This game allows for 12 abilities. 10 actives and 2 ultimates.

This sounds like you are having trouble making a PvP build and you're asking them to scratch an entire game mode because of it. Arena PvP is most welcome here.

MorHawk · September 2014

c0rp wrote: »

LMAO...zos cant even balance the game WITHOUT an arena let alone with one...they know better. Wont be any arena coming any time soon lol.

Add spellcrafting to the mix? Not a chance for arena.

I wouldn't bet on it. You can argue whether or not arena PvP is a good idea, but with it having been promoted at every con in the country, I certainly wouldn't be tossing the "it'll never happen" comments around.

Cogo · September 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

The same build on 2 different players SHOULD have different outcomes.....thats the note on the back of the game you bought.

I'll answer that if I may....

1. 2 people with the same build should end in stalemate.
2. 2 people with differing builds (that are played to their optimum without error) should also stalemate.

That is my idea of a balanced system.....ie equality in combat = "balance".

At the moment this simply does not happen. The system was never designed to even allow it to happen.

1. There are 3 types of attack ...weapon, critical, spell. All demand unique treatment. All hence demand unique resource. As there is only 3 resource pools....each must have its own.

2. There are 3 types of defense... weapon, spell and reflex saves. All demand.....etc

3. Should people who focus all of their strength into one resource do damage with attack and defense of another resource ? No I shouldnt do massive spell & crit & weapon damage all at the same time...so % of weapon spell or crit damage should be biased according to resource allocation.

These kind of things I dont spout because its my idea and evrything else sucks....I put such things forward because they are the ONLY way to balance the maths and create the required combat everyone wants.

So in essence the same build on 2 different players should have a stalemate if played to the max....rather than a different outcome.

If I see two weapon masters go head to head I expect to see a battle last for days as in the stories of old in TES.

Let me guess. The ball about ESO character developing system, is never ending and options for over 1000s different builds, where the player "personal skill" and teamwork impacts far more then any "build"....hit you all at once?

It's pointless, but I will if asked...nicely, link ZOS statements about skill bar, how to balance, END GAME is "high level game", and will always evolve.

You keep saying "balance the math". Ok, yes. You are right. In order to correctly get exact numbers of everything. That's true.

That's also have nothing to do with ESO combat, mechanics and core game.

Think about it
- Champion system = no one going to have all points. However, the passives are not overpowered in any way, but still grows you stronger. EQ AA is the proof and copy. (Paul Sage)
- Raise caps and "MAYBE" remove caps all together + Food revamp = another new view to consider.
- 2 guild skill lines = ZOS will not release those without balance it with everything
- Spell crafting. "morph" endless spells/skills that you need to research = no idea who morphs with what and who can do what. Balance "security"= Skill bar. Sure, morph a AWESOME FIRE attack! Against someone who got 2 morphed fire resist + protect effects? Or not.....or just block it?
- Several new ZONES. PvP - Solo - 1-50 and Champion based.
- The solo based zone will be "main quest" and "Hollow City phased". No one curious what that alone can come with? Another trait?
- Current raised caps. Robe players....hurts a bit more to get hit? Its not the other side who got buffed. The system got and keep getting balanced.
- ZOS constant underlining PERSONAL SKILL to be a big factor in your play?

What is personal skill?
You (not your abilities to follow a guide or do the numbers)
This skill is gained by playing. You earn more skill points in this skill the more you use it....by playing.

I have to ask.....are people STILL using 49 health as attributes?
No one noticed that attributes have effects other then Enchant attributes?
In game, press C, read the description for each attribute.

Common!! What do you really think ZOS did for 7 years? Play zelda?

Yusuf · September 2014

People who continue to complain about balance, i have a feeling they're complaining more than they play.
This is why we can't have nice things...

Jack-0 · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

This is why arena-style PVP could never work in this game. Balance is impossible with this current combat-locked implementation of the 5-skill bar system.

Balance is impossible in any game where there is more than one possible play style/class/template/whatever. WoW does not restrict keybinds, are you trying to tell me that's ever been balanced? Ha. What about UO? EQ?

Arena would be a most unwelcome addition to ESO imo and I'd much rather see the resources spent on improvements to existing pvp and maybe a smaller scale (20-30 players per team?) CTF/KotH map.

Zorrashi · September 2014

You are worried about impossible balance on the grounds of impossible adaptability. While you can't do it on the fly, you yourself already stated that you can change your skill bar out of combat so its not like you can't change your skills as all. Just pre-plan like everyone else.

While the number of skills that should be allowed on the skill bar can be debated eternally, I still maintain the position that no matter the skills virtually anyone can get a decent amount of damage (damage, not defeat) on the opponent depending on their tactics that may or may not involve their skill bar.
But it still stands that even the some of the most rejected builds can encounter 1 vs 1 victories in Cyrodil depending on how they approach the situation.
I see no reason to completely bar the arena because of that.

But I do see your concern. ZOS is currently notorious for bad class balancing. Many months in and stamina build just recently received notable attention. Add in he fact that nearly every bit of new content comes with its package of bugs and exploits....but I digress.

Content is content and people want some. It just so happens that they are giving an arena, which is what a significant portion of the players have demanded.

rophez_ESO · September 2014

An arena can and will work just fine. Every MMO deals with balance. If you hate the idea of an unbalanced fight, stay out of the arena. There's always going to be an new FOTM skill loadout, until someone discovers the best counter, then there will be a new one. It's part of the fun.

AssaultLemming · September 2014

As far as I can see we have arena PvP, it's just a very big arena.

Ruebs · September 2014

They are bringing an Arena and many, MANY people are waiting for it.
To say otherwise is a lie.
So I'm going to say what people say to me when I complain in these hostile forums:
Deal With It...

If we're not balanced for 1v1's, what are be balanced for? Zergs?

Ruebs · September 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

kosac wrote: »

no, arena system is welcome.. many ppl waiting for it..

Actually, they aren't and no it's not welcome. A small subset of pvpers that post on the forums want it. Yet every poll on the subject has shown a drastically different outcome.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/113419/duels-yes-or-no/p1
.....

Laerania_ESO · September 2014

an Arena in ESO... are you not happy with Elders Scrolls of Camelot?

Ardeni · September 2014

In my opinion an arena system could work in this game IF they balanced skills for it separately. Not having played wow, I can't tell what is actually included in the word "arena" but the way I understand it, it is a small space where two small groups fight until death.

I'm not sure if eso exactly needs this, but the sad truth is that the current pvp system is not very good for those who don't wish to play in large groups as small scale pvp no longer exists at least during the hours when I play (EU). There is only one campaign that is active while the rest of the campaigns are controlled by one alliance and aren't actually played. This eliminates the small scale pvp in a sense, since it forces everybody who wants to play into one server. The lack of small scale pvp is the biggest reason why I recently cancelled my subscription and am not considering resubbing before they do something about the pvp (the other reason being dragonstar arena, which pretty much wrecked my guild's activities).

mr1sho · February 2016

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Also stop and think mate.

One thing is to have small fights in Cyro , where you lose or win , doesnt change much , you can be annoyed or complain a little and that is it.

Another thing is to play with arenas , where you get points for winning/losing , there are ranks ...

People will complain FAR MORE about balance there than they will about cyro , just wait :P.

People will always complain who cares all I want is a arena to test my might