ezareth_ESO wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

Pointless ad hominem accusation off QQ as an arguement:

This is a case of L2P and QQ. seriously the reflect has not worked for months and they just *supposedly* fixed it. If NBs had not been horribly mutilated with 1.4 *patch* they would be rolling you.

I have been playing my DK since early access and only just started using reflect again because everyone and their mother is suddenly a master bowmen, crystal shards+snipe, javelin+snipe+venom arrow,... Despite the fact that most of what i reflect does not appear to be doing damage and appears to be a waste of at least 1 skill point. DKs do not have mobility, no invasion does not count, not sorry that you do not know enough about your skills to fight DKs. Most DKs are killed by Sorcs (ones I have talked to and compared stats with, such as KillCounter) so you are clearly not doing it right.

So what I see here is you cannot one/two shot DKs with sorc skills and you get squished because you have the survivability of a small child due to your glass cannon build not working.

Try using some of those other skills, everyone always brings out the "DK killed me"....
...QQ...nerf Dragons Blood (only returns 30% of what is *missing* health, spam to 100% == no resources, not even sure it is possible to actually get to 100% via dragons blood alone)
...QQ...nerf reflective scale (very funny when it was not even working, try the vast number of non-projectle abitlies...like resto attack, sword, impulse, you know use other *skills*)
...QQ...nerf Banner (its soooo hard to roll out of, funny roll gets you out of talons too)
...QQ...nerf Talons (CC lock is called...*out of stam*)
...QQ...nerf DKs cause they hurt my feelings

if as a sorc you are going to stand there in light armor with crystal shards and toe-to-toe a DK then your are not even worth a teabag after he or she rolls you.

If a DK is spamming reflect it is because a brilliant sorc is targeting him with crystal shards/snipe; it is only cost effective as an offense skill (mostly as a distraction), using it purely defense is only viable when not in direct combat, such as at bottom of wall. I pop reflect in battle only when i detect arrows/shards/stonefists, but keeping it up in battle will quickly mean i have no mag for dragons blood, or other more useful skills.

To reiterate...try learning a little more about the class. I suggest playing one for a while. No, DK is not the easy button, but I love it that people think and say that as those DKs are the ones that go down faster than a stunned NB. The real DKs are in the front fighting, the *easy button* DKs wear dresses and try to be sorcs/NBs and are there to complete our "Kill enemy DK" quests in minutes.

The problem you are neglecting is that you are in combat pretty much until you return to a keep. I use Wykkyd's Outfitter to swap gear and skills with a single button, however that only works if you are out of combat.

What you are also neglecting is that this thread is about specifically DK's that keep reflective up ALL THE TIME. That should not be possible considering how OP this single ability is against the vast majority of builds and abilities in the game.

This single spammable ability not only negates any ranged magic user, but bow users, and even melee users throwing daggers, AND it causes 20% more damage than these attacks would have done back to the casters. Also, explain to me how an instant hit bolt of lightning is a "projectile." It is just stupid and you know it.

Reflective spamming DK's negate 80% or more of the damage in PVP. Just about anything other than direct melee attacks with Dual Wield, 2H, or 1H/Shield weapons, or AOE spam from siege or destro staff which puts you in melee range to get Talons+Whip spam.

The ability is ridiculous specifically because THERE IS NO COUNTER WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR BUILD, which cannot be done on the fly.

You telling me to "L2P" basically equates to your ignorance or acceptance of 80% of the builds in the game having no effective counter to one single ability other than respecing to melee.

I'm sure that sounds good to the DK mashing his epeen-stroking "iwin" button, but it is terrible for balance and long-term subscription sustainability of the game.

when you say something like "One skill completely negates an entire class archetype. I don't think balance is even something ZOS is shooting for." it is you showing ignorance. You do not have to build for it specifically, but if *you* are dying because of that one skill then you are doing it wrong.

If @ezareth_ESO‌ was saying that reflect was OP or calling for a nerf on reflect then there might be something to it as he has gotten (too) good at killing DKs, but then Sorcs are far more likely to kill DKs than other classes anyway. several told you ways to counter, now you have been told a rotation or two and have some advice. Do you still think that reflect is OP?

I think reflect is very powerful but it is fine. It is a class defining ability of DKs and they deserve it just as sorcs deserve bolt escape, templars blazing shield etc.

My only issue with Reflective scales is the bug with Mages fury but I imagine at some point in the distant future they'll fix that.

I have to admit I do not like [snip] Mages fury (when someone knows how to use it), but i see no logic behind it being reflected, at all, that should be prioritized for a fix.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

I am surprised this hasn't been nerfed already. DKs can keep this ability up 100% of the time, effectively eliminating ranged combat from PvP and reflecting roughly 80% of all damage. It is like everyone at ZOS plays a DK and they are sitting there laughing at the other classes' futile attempts to compete with a completely OP class.

Oh yeah, and the unbreakable CC that DKs are so fond of abusing continues to be ignored.

TheBull wrote: »

Sav72 wrote: »

Let me get this straight?

Sorc and DK are complaining?

This NB is laughing

Have a nice day

My thoughts exactly. I saw this yesterday. I decided to pull up a chair

Yes, please, do turn this into another thread about NBs cause you haven't bored us to death in the other 28,129 threads you posted in.

I'm awaiting more pearls of wisdom from every post of yours

GunemCleric wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

This is a case of L2P and QQ. seriously the reflect has not worked for months and they just *supposedly* fixed it. If NBs had not been horribly mutilated with 1.4 *patch* they would be rolling you.

I have been playing my DK since early access and only just started using reflect again because everyone and their mother is suddenly a master bowmen, crystal shards+snipe, javelin+snipe+venom arrow,... Despite the fact that most of what i reflect does not appear to be doing damage and appears to be a waste of at least 1 skill point. DKs do not have mobility, no invasion does not count, not sorry that you do not know enough about your skills to fight DKs. Most DKs are killed by Sorcs (ones I have talked to and compared stats with, such as KillCounter) so you are clearly not doing it right.

So what I see here is you cannot one/two shot DKs with sorc skills and you get squished because you have the survivability of a small child due to your glass cannon build not working.

Try using some of those other skills, everyone always brings out the "DK killed me"....
...QQ...nerf Dragons Blood (only returns 30% of what is *missing* health, spam to 100% == no resources, not even sure it is possible to actually get to 100% via dragons blood alone)
...QQ...nerf reflective scale (very funny when it was not even working, try the vast number of non-projectle abitlies...like resto attack, sword, impulse, you know use other *skills*)
...QQ...nerf Banner (its soooo hard to roll out of, funny roll gets you out of talons too)
...QQ...nerf Talons (CC lock is called...*out of stam*)
...QQ...nerf DKs cause they hurt my feelings

if as a sorc you are going to stand there in light armor with crystal shards and toe-to-toe a DK then your are not even worth a teabag after he or she rolls you.

If a DK is spamming reflect it is because a brilliant sorc is targeting him with crystal shards/snipe; it is only cost effective as an offense skill (mostly as a distraction), using it purely defense is only viable when not in direct combat, such as at bottom of wall. I pop reflect in battle only when i detect arrows/shards/stonefists, but keeping it up in battle will quickly mean i have no mag for dragons blood, or other more useful skills.

To reiterate...try learning a little more about the class. I suggest playing one for a while. No, DK is not the easy button, but I love it that people think and say that as those DKs are the ones that go down faster than a stunned NB. The real DKs are in the front fighting, the *easy button* DKs wear dresses and try to be sorcs/NBs and are there to complete our "Kill enemy DK" quests in minutes.

Please tell me how the *** this is a QQ thread. Hr came here asking for advice to defeat a certain build, he did no use.the word nerf at all. In fact it seems like the complete opposite of a QQ thread its a "I'm trying to learn something" thread. Read the OP next time.

perhaps QQ a little harsh, but this is yet another "i cant faceroll class X because of Y with the one skill i use, and i tried W and Z is broken" the implication and content follows "yes X is OP lets call for nerf"

it is always something until next fotw comes along. If BE is being reflected then that does not sound right, unless we are reflecting back at the sky. I have had BE land a couple times and i am sure I happened to have reflect (last night), so it does not sound like a constant thing.

As far as class match-ups, i still think that

Sorc (kills) DK
NB (kills) Sorc
Temp (kills) Sorc
DK (kills) NB

I do not think Temps have an easy weakness (unless you keep them on thier back) and everything I see is that temps have the highest consistent DPS in PvP. Very rarely does a NB actually kill me almost always after someone else has done the work. When I run into a NB in the wild they die or run, 2 NBs is almost always a draw, 1 templar is almost always a draw (later is a long fight and then mutual backing away)

In battle, dueling is not real fighting so cannot go by those as any type of real measure.

Are you serious? That win/loss table based on class is terrible.

More like:
Sorc (with more skill) > Other person
DK (with more skill) > Other person
Temp (with more skill) > Other person
NB (with more skill) > Other person

With the obvious:
Any class (stamina build) <<<<< Any magic or hybrid build of any player using any class of equal level

Reflect is not always up. Time your hits accordingly..

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

This is not a complicated thing. I have a VR14 DK and Sorc. I leveled the second to learn how to kill them since in the early days (when nobody knew how to play their class) the only threat to me as a DK was a Sorc.

The more I play sorc the more laughable OP claims against the DK seem to be.

But to address OP. Here is log to an average DK kill.

DK casts Reflective Scales (likely at range)

Sorc casts Curse. Starts to kite.

DK attempts to close the gap (typically invasion).

Sorc blocks invasion.

DK casts tallons.

Sorc casts curse again (first has exploded at this point).

DK is about to Lava Whip .... BUT

This is where the sorc does his power play.

Soc Bolt escapes (the first curse blowing up is your que that DK Scales has worn off since it has almost the same timer).
Most DKs dont block while using Lava Whip against a taloned foe. Don't know why. That just how it usually plays out. This means that your BE has stunned the DK.

Sorc dodge rolls out of Talons while DK is stunned and casts his (more often than not) Proc'd Crystal shards.

Sorc casts Endless Fury.

I don't know how your build is but on my build that is almost exactly 2200 damage I've put out. If the target has 2600 Health or less that's a one-rotation kill because Fury will execute a low health target.

I am well aware that most Tank build DKs have more health than 2600.

In any event he is hurting. He lost a MASSIVE amount of health in less than 8 seconds. He has a choice to make. Does he cast Scales again? He has too, you wrecked him when it went down for just a second.

-400 magic

Does he cast Dragon Blood? He has too. He is almost critical health and vulnerable to execution.

-400 magic

Wait, how much magic did he use during the first rotation of the battle?
Scales? Whip? Talons?

-1080

Something tells me he is magic starved at this point. Keep your cool. Have your way with him, whisper sweet nothings in his ear. Finish the job. Don't be an idiot and do the /shovel emote, its tacky.

Your whole scenario depends on that DK does not block and sorcerer does everything perfectly and gets the CF proc. If sorcerers eats the Invasion stun + talons, he'll die in the unbreakable stun + Flame Lash spam before he even gets up. Not so great pep talk was it? Like I said earlier, it's really hard to win DK unless they mess up.

aleksandar.miticeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

long post please bear with me

---

I attended a duelling event yesterday with a lot of really good players attending and I came out with a lot of new information.

I assume this was on Chillrend, EU? If so, thanks for the fights and we all hope to see you soon again!

It was indeed! Trust me you will, it was immense fun. Although maybe next time we should do it a bit earlier, I ended up going to bed at 2am and having to get up at 7am. I look like a drug addict this morning :P

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

So basically as a spell Sorc the answer is "not much."

I appreciate the suggestion, and the 1H/Shield reflect might help some, but honestly I can't see myself swapping out my staff for a stamina set any time I see a DK.

I am still a little bit dubious as to what they consider "projectiles" as well.

Oh well, can't PVP without crashing anyway so I'll just forget about it.

Frustrated about this aswell. It seems that most of spells are considered as projectiles even thou they are not visualy look like projectile.
Destructive touch unmorfed for example... Pure melee skill. Still reflected by any Projectile reflect skill.

Not an experienced sorc player, but how are the Overload heavy attacks damage-wise? I assume those aren't getting reflected? Are they an option if you get caugh up in Talons? Negate might be another option if up, giving you a small window to dmg and draining enemy's stamina when he breaks it.

GwaynLoki wrote: »

Not an experienced sorc player, but how are the Overload heavy attacks damage-wise? I assume those aren't getting reflected? Are they an option if you get caugh up in Talons? Negate might be another option if up, giving you a small window to dmg and draining enemy's stamina when he breaks it.

I don't know about heavy attacks, but light attacks get reflected.

All I'm reading is a bunch of skirt-wearing, stick-shaking delicate little caster flowers getting all upset because they're actually getting beaten by something!

GwaynLoki wrote: »

Not an experienced sorc player, but how are the Overload heavy attacks damage-wise? I assume those aren't getting reflected? Are they an option if you get caugh up in Talons? Negate might be another option if up, giving you a small window to dmg and draining enemy's stamina when he breaks it.

Heavy attacks are too easily interrupted but yes they do decent damage and drain ult a little slower than the light attacks.

I'd never use heavy attack in a 1 v 1 as it is usually decided by who runs out of stamina first and getting bashed and having to break free is a good way to do that.

A good DK can only be killed by starving him of either magicka or stamina the same as a Sorc.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

long post please bear with me

---

I attended a duelling event yesterday with a lot of really good players attending and I came out with a lot of new information. I was there with my DK and despite him being a vamp (cheese, yes I know) I had a good success rate against other players including other DKs.

What worked for me, was swallowing up dmg and waiting for the inevitable mana drain to force the opponent onto heavy resto attacks (we have a no pots rule). Then use that window to shield charge them down and do a magicka dump. Wait for them to use all their mana on shields and heals and go again till they can no longer stand.

However, more than anything, I was impressed with a couple of Sorcs who lit up the place with some amazing performances. I had a 6-7 minute duel with one which I eventually lost but came out far better informed about how to use my own sorc.

To come to the point, the best Sorc I saw was using S&B on main bar (resto on 2nd) and was eating up DKs for breakfast. He used defensive posture to reflect the reflected CFs back to the DKs. When the DKs realised they were just wasting magicka by keeping the Scales up they had to use different tactics.

The S&B and defensive posture helped him sustain stamina & health much better and he also used the Arena set which helped him get out of those sticky situations when I caught him off guard with the shield charge.

A Sorc that can block and CC break can nail a DK with his superior burst damage. The triple hit of VC, CF and Fury all landing within a sec can put out 2-3k damage. The times I pushed the Sorc hard during the fight I really felt the lack of an execute to push me over the line. A DK with an execute would be OP as duck though.

I still think the Sorc requires a bit more skill and timing than the DK. You need to be on the ball with your blocks and streaks, you need to know your VC timer and be smart and patient with your use of proc'ed CFs to land the knock-downs. DKs are a bit more straightforward and after fighting 4-5 I noticed very similar tactics by all of us.

Currently levelling S&B on my Sorc and looking forward to some real good fights

Yeah I've considered defensive posture for that purpose but the problem is it is a 1 v 1 spec. In 1vX it is too expensive in stamina cost to maintain. I've even run Sorcs using Defensive posture out of stamina by spamming light overload and animation cancelling it with harness magicka. As long as you have enough ultimate and can time your shield correctly they will run out of stamina far before you run out of ultimate.

Against a DK it is far more useful as by them having to block your fragment instead of reflecting it it drains their stamina.

The biggest advantage of defensive posture to me is the bonus to blocking. Sword and board is so much better to intercept invasions and crit charges with.

I don't know if I should be telling anyone this or not, but ahh why not! I don't PVP often anymore...You want to own everyone as Sorc(including DragonKnights) its fairly simple:

Weapon - Desto Staff, preferably a Lighting Staff(for both bars) as each attack or tick of the power attack from it has a chance to proc Disintegrate of the Storm Calling Line instantly killing your target 6% of the time if they are at 20% health or less.(With no chance to reflect, they get turned into a pile of ash, they are dead)

Armor Light Armor, 7 pieces preferably.

Bar 1 -
1. Mages Wrath or Crushing Shock
2. Critical Surge or Power Surge
3. Bound Aegis
4. Hardened Ward
5. Mage Light or Bolt Escape

Ultimate - Power Overload

Bar Two I would use as more of a utility bar, put skills such as Spell Symmetry, Dark Deal, Bolt Escape, and perhaps Daedric Tomb or Volcanic Rune as means of covering your escape if need be.

Using Bar One, toss up Bound Aegis, and Keep up Hardened Ward (which is dirt cheap) and uber...Power Overload is dirt cheap and deadly...keep your Ward up and Spam Power Overload behind a Hardened Ward and watch yourself melt faces....quite literally....even if you get reflected once or twice, Your Hardened Ward which is the Value + 33% more will protect you from Damage, You can spam more insane damage Overload Spells then he can keep up Scales.

Each Light Attack from Power Overload does some where in the tune of around 600 damage per hit, and its toggle able, It Procs Disintegrate because its shock damage, and does an insane amount of damage....you can happily stay behind your Hardened Ward + your Armor from Bound Armor and melt people with Power Overload.

When I pvp a few weeks ago, I ate Dragon Knights for Breakfast, even those at a much higher level, those trying to use Reflect didn't stand a chance.

Also, Power Overload gives you a 3rd bar, so activate it and put whatever skills you want on it. In the Rare case the battle doesn't go your way, Bolt Escape away, Lay Daedric Mine Field or Volcanic Rune, Bolt one more time, Hit Dark Exchange, Hit Spell Symetry(Added Damage + Might of the Guild) if he is still chasing, reframe in your favor.

Honestly, I could do this all night......That combo there is INSANELY powerful....you will melt faces effortlessly, even DK that use scales,

I don't PVP much anymore, because its terribly unbalanced. However, if DK are giving you that much trouble, there is your build that will not only counter them, will counter everyone else too....I am serious you will melt nearly everyone using that skill bar...you do way too much damage for anyone to be to take it, and Power Overload is so damn cheap and doesn't cost magic, and is spammable, forcing your opponent to empty his magicka reserves just trying to survive it, while if your Overload Runs out, you still got a full mana bar to fall back on, its a win-win, if you use Energy Overload, it refills mana on each hit, giving you even more resources.

I always wondered why more people don't use Overload in PVP..it is insanely OP and will pretty much melt anyone who gets in your way in very short order. Very, Very few people will survive a full bar of Overload, and those few who do, you will have a full mana bar of skill choices to fall back on to finish them off. They will be resource staved if they are still alive...and Overload fills very quickly...take Power Stone from Daedric to reduce its cost.

Now go into PVP fellow Sorcs, and melt people's faces with Overload

Once this gets popular now, folks will be screaming for it to get nerfed in Short Order....