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Stamina Return Via Heavy Attack, nerf or buff?
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MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nerf? Buff? Not sure. How about "decent compromise?""A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle1 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭i am a 2h templar, if i do not clip my heavy weapon attack, i will not be able to break 650 sustained dps on a single target - outside of using the combination of warhorn/igneus/combat prayer minimum.
im not the greatest player, but ive been playing for 15 years now, and i've learned a lot. in nearly every mmo with rmb/lmb combat, there has always been clipping, this is part of the mechanic of the game, and in fact, in these games, the melee are required to learn their rotation and clip it well in order to keep their dps on par with ranged.
this has to do with melee needing to do burst dmg b/c they have to get in and out of fights due to mob/boss local aoe.
there are two issues we stam users are having here
1 is sustained dps, the other is regen
we already have both stam and magicka users doing some type of animation clip, whether its a heavy attack clip into an ability, or a light attack weave in between casts (aka crushing shock/light attack weave)
now, if stam users had access to things like spell symmetry for stam and warlock gear for stam, then this would put us on par with magicka users in the respect of regen. especially with the recent buffs we've gotten to medium armor.
but we dont, so while we are doing our clips to keep our below par dmg as high as possible, we dont have spell symmetry and its passives to buff our next attack. or to increase our max stam/stam regen just by having it on our bars.
so, as the game stands right now, this is a nice addition, but it really isnt a buff yet:
in a nutshell, with current game mechanics, i need to clip my attacks in order to keep my dps close to everyone else (who is doing it too, just with light weaves).
having "stamina symmetry" and then using it to buff my attacks would allow me to forgo using heavy attacks - clipping or not - and light weave with say... executioner or carve (cleave morph), doing a heavy attack here or there for a bit of regen, like our casters do, which cannot be compared to stam users.
when we get to that point, this will be a buff. for now, it feels like a nerf, b/c now im forced to do the full animation, lowering my dps to sustain the resource, but unable to buff it back up like mage guild passives and spell symmetry.
and warlock gear.
on the subject of whether or not clipping is "legit" this is all i have to say about it:
it takes skill and practice to get the perfect clip off every time. and thats not counting combat lag etc.
this is a mechanic that has been around for as long as Pc mmos have, theres no reason to have an outcry to get rid of it.
and if they do get rid of it, they better increase the dmg by 1/3 minimum to keep up with that loss (which doesnt work b/c it will be hitting too hard, that's why u are able to clip).0 -
ferzalrwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭If you're out of stamina clipping won't do you much good so getting a return on a slightly-less-clipped heavy attack is a buff.0
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Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭clipping is the art of animation cancelling. Light attack then quickly use a skill (before light attack animation finishes) then before the skill finishes use block. Then just repeat that with different skills mixed in but always doing
LA --> skill --> block --> repeat2 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »If you're out of stamina clipping won't do you much good so getting a return on a slightly-less-clipped heavy attack is a buff.
what we have worked out previously was to do a wrecking blow - heavy attack clipped into another wrecking blow, due to cast times, regen was able to compensate for this0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭i am a 2h templar, if i do not clip my heavy weapon attack, i will not be able to break 650 sustained dps on a single target - outside of using the combination of warhorn/igneus/combat prayer minimum.
im not the greatest player, but ive been playing for 15 years now, and i've learned a lot. in nearly every mmo with rmb/lmb combat, there has always been clipping, this is part of the mechanic of the game, and in fact, in these games, the melee are required to learn their rotation and clip it well in order to keep their dps on par with ranged.
this has to do with melee needing to do burst dmg b/c they have to get in and out of fights due to mob/boss local aoe.
there are two issues we stam users are having here
1 is sustained dps, the other is regen
we already have both stam and magicka users doing some type of animation clip, whether its a heavy attack clip into an ability, or a light attack weave in between casts (aka crushing shock/light attack weave)
now, if stam users had access to things like spell symmetry for stam and warlock gear for stam, then this would put us on par with magicka users in the respect of regen. especially with the recent buffs we've gotten to medium armor.
but we dont, so while we are doing our clips to keep our below par dmg as high as possible, we dont have spell symmetry and its passives to buff our next attack. or to increase our max stam/stam regen just by having it on our bars.
so, as the game stands right now, this is a nice addition, but it really isnt a buff yet:
in a nutshell, with current game mechanics, i need to clip my attacks in order to keep my dps close to everyone else (who is doing it too, just with light weaves).
having "stamina symmetry" and then using it to buff my attacks would allow me to forgo using heavy attacks - clipping or not - and light weave with say... executioner or carve (cleave morph), doing a heavy attack here or there for a bit of regen, like our casters do, which cannot be compared to stam users.
when we get to that point, this will be a buff. for now, it feels like a nerf, b/c now im forced to do the full animation, lowering my dps to sustain the resource, but unable to buff it back up like mage guild passives and spell symmetry.
and warlock gear.
on the subject of whether or not clipping is "legit" this is all i have to say about it:
it takes skill and practice to get the perfect clip off every time. and thats not counting combat lag etc.
this is a mechanic that has been around for as long as Pc mmos have, theres no reason to have an outcry to get rid of it.
and if they do get rid of it, they better increase the dmg by 1/3 minimum to keep up with that loss (which doesnt work b/c it will be hitting too hard, that's why u are able to clip).
There he is :P @DarkAidan i was getting the communities opinion on our recent debate in guild chat as to how this is a nerf in any means (like you were stating). Your post has nothing to do with anything we were talking about. The question was never if clipping is good or bad, it was the fact that you (and others now in game have stressed) that clippers should have access to the full heavy attack animation stamina/magicka return even though you are cancelling the animation.
one of cancels definitions is
Cancel: To annul or invalidate.
by canceling the animation you give up the stamina/magicka return. Giving you a choice to choose superior dps or resource gain. You cant have both
But if you read some other post, someone found a hard to hit sweet spot that gives clippers the return so you should still be happy and no longer think of this as a nerf ^_^ If i were you, i would experiment with it to find said sweet spot. then you could have the best of both worlds
The grass is always greener on the other side right? Clippers want the resource return, non clippers want the dps output clippers have.Edited by Gorthax on September 22, 2014 8:29PM0 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭clipping is the art of animation cancelling. Light attack then quickly use a skill (before light attack animation finishes) then before the skill finishes use block. Then just repeat that with different skills mixed in but always doing
LA --> skill --> block --> repeat
heavy/light attack -> skill -> block
this is the priority list, yes, however its not really used in pve
in pve we forgo the block pretty much
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Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »If you're out of stamina clipping won't do you much good so getting a return on a slightly-less-clipped heavy attack is a buff.
what we have worked out previously was to do a wrecking blow - heavy attack clipped into another wrecking blow, due to cast times, regen was able to compensate for this
That is the one thing I liked about the clipping idea, the depth in which you can actually theorycraft stuff if you focused on nothing but clipping things together for the best results. Just cant get around how stupid people look doing it
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Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »interesting, i thought there was a sweet spot for it too, but i couldnt replicate it. Though i do not do clipping WILLINGLY (sometimes it happens in pvp out of frantic moment to moment fights), i think they should make it be a frame of the ending animation that grants the return. Something to make it so you cant clip it. You should only be able to choose one or the other. It is ZoS game though, so their decision is the final verdict. I will play clipping free and macro free and just enjoy my GAME lol.
I said it before and I will say it again; I can not stand the way clipping looks.....it is disgusting(constant seizures my guy is having) and trying to play that way just to get a few 100 more dps is not worth it (to me).
I think they should just lock out other animation until the last is complete.
It all comes down to who has the best natural timing/luck or those running macros.
As only the l33t will be running macros...this is unfair to the bulk of the playerbase.
Even so...many cancel to some degree as they simply cant complete dps wise without it. Dps will need rebalancing
Macros aren't l33t, they're cheat.
cheat to you...cheat to me....an I WIN button for min maxers
Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Aoife32001✭✭✭✭I think they should just lock out other animation until the last is complete.
It all comes down to who has the best natural timing/luck or those running macros.
As only the l33t will be running macros...this is unfair to the bulk of the playerbase.
I agree completely, and wholeheartedly with ZoS would do this (though I doubt they will).
This is a side note, but as for the "l33t", "hard-core", "competitive", etc. etc. in gaming, I find the entire concept rather absurd. With the exception maybe of professional security and government hackers, if you don't have to get out of a chair for the activity, doing it doesn't make you "hardcore"...0 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »If you're out of stamina clipping won't do you much good so getting a return on a slightly-less-clipped heavy attack is a buff.
what we have worked out previously was to do a wrecking blow - heavy attack clipped into another wrecking blow, due to cast times, regen was able to compensate for this
That is the one thing I liked about the clipping idea, the depth in which you can actually theorycraft stuff if you focused on nothing but clipping things together for the best results. Just cant get around how stupid people look doing it
clip your heavy attack into executioner, its very aesthetically pleasing0 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭
There he is :P @DarkAidan i was getting the communities opinion on our recent debate in guild chat as to how this is a nerf in any means (like you were stating). Your post has nothing to do with anything we were talking about. The question was never if clipping is good or bad, it was the fact that you (and others now in game have stressed) that clippers should have access to the full heavy attack animation stamina/magicka return even though you are cancelling the animation.
.
i never had a chance before half the guild jumped down my throat.
let me put it this way for you
you need to get from point alpha to point beta, you have two roads, road A and road B
road A will get u from alpha to beta slower, but its a very beautiful scenic route
road B will get u from alpha to beta quicker, but its tough to navigate and not as pretty, causing you to be "on" while driving it.
now remember, your job is to deliver the goods from point alpha to point beta as fast as possible
i think i have also fully responded to that by the whole issue with stamina builds in this game currently, and comparing them to magicka builds who have access to mage guild passives and abilities that buff their dps, where we stamina users dont.
this isnt about having my cake and eating it too
this is about putting me on par with magicka dpsers
Edited by DarkAedin on September 22, 2014 9:13PM0 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »
It is funny that people actually think that those LA weaving macros would be of any use or that they actually exist./facepalm
But then again it's the same people that say that a stamina leach ability of any kind added to the game is a nerf to stamina.Edited by PBpsy on September 22, 2014 11:12PMESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭
There he is :P @DarkAidan i was getting the communities opinion on our recent debate in guild chat as to how this is a nerf in any means (like you were stating). Your post has nothing to do with anything we were talking about. The question was never if clipping is good or bad, it was the fact that you (and others now in game have stressed) that clippers should have access to the full heavy attack animation stamina/magicka return even though you are cancelling the animation.
.
i never had a chance before half the guild jumped down my throat.
let me put it this way for you
you need to get from point alpha to point beta, you have two roads, road A and road B
road A will get u from alpha to beta slower, but its a very beautiful scenic route
road B will get u from alpha to beta quicker, but its tough to navigate and not as pretty, causing you to be "on" while driving it.
now remember, your job is to deliver the goods from point alpha to point beta as fast as possible
i think i have also fully responded to that by the whole issue with stamina builds in this game currently, and comparing them to magicka builds who have access to mage guild passives and abilities that buff their dps, where we stamina users dont.
this isnt about having my cake and eating it too
this is about putting me on par with magicka dpsers
Yea the guild jumping in 95% of the time really botched that convo, which is why I whispered you, but you didnt like that :P Stamina users have access to mage guild abilities. In fact if a stamina user used some of the mage guild skills to get magicka recovery then they could splash in some class skills. As it sits right now though, yea stamina will never be up to par with magicka. Stamina builds are possible, but straight stamina is not nor will it ever be sadly.
Though a well skilled player using stamina can win battles, they cant win in giant group battles. That is where magicka shines. Lets hope spell crafting and the stamina equivalent can close this gap though ^_^
@DarkAidan i would like to rack your brain a bit in game (later sometime) i have some questions regarding some of the dps stuff we chatted about.0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭As it sits right now though, yea stamina will never be up to par with magicka. Stamina builds are possible, but straight stamina is not nor will it ever be sadly.
Could possibly change with thief/darkbro guilds assuming they are stam exclusive.
Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on September 24, 2014 6:20PMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »
I hope they are not stamina exclusive, or at least not ALL skills are stamina exclusive. Yea I agree though; those two things have the most potential to turn the battle, between the two resources, around.0 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Heavy Attacks are Heavy because they take time, and they shouldn't be allowed to clip at all imho.
You use it and that's it, and I view the heavy usage as a massive buff that I employ to great effect.Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!0 -
Thisnon clipping is not superior in dps output though. Therefor the clippers play style has not been nerfed in any way because non clipping was NOT made superior.
Is the whole point. Usually a Nerf is referring to a direct change on the nerfed subject. If something is buffed so much that something else is now clearly inferior some call that a nerf too. Neither of those happened.1 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭So one may make the argument that things have been equalized. Am I right?Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!0
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chipputer✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »So one may make the argument that things have been equalized. Am I right?
If you're speaking in terms of Stamina vs Magicka based DPS then no, that argument is not sound.
The amount of stamina used up for multiple actions (blocking, rolling, sprinting, using skills) and the amount gained from heavy attacks do not cancel each other out in the slightest. The only difference is that I always have a method to gain a bit more stamina to block with, as most of my skills use more stamina than one heavy attack can return.
Meanwhile, magicka use has only one drain on it and that is your magicka based skills.0 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Oh no, Magicka and Stamina is not what I meant, I meant Clipping and Unclipping.Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!0
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Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭because people who clip can not get the stamina or magicka return off of a heavy attack. That is what they think the nerf is0
