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Pull the Plug
-
ers101284b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They just need to go ahead and do flagged PVP. Make the whole world PVP but if your flagged your in one instance and if your not then it sends you to a different instance. I want to go to cyrodill without vein bothered and PVPers want more places to fight4 -
well,
when the Game was release, I created a Guild (small real-life friends guild) which got up to 14 players in ESO and I also joined another medium Guild with at least 60+ players(same timezone I live, a well formed and solid Guild, extremely active) - they were all people already in the Guild that decided to buy and play ESO, many apparently trying something other than WoW.
in the first Guild (real-life friends) there's 2 active - we were 4 until last patch, and now only are still active Sorcs (both) - one of them re-rolled from Templar because.....
on the other Guild, the one with 60+ is a bit sad.. people there understood very, very early how problematic ESO really was, and even thou leadership tried and tried, the numbers disappeared in less than 2 months.
this means, after 6 months from roughly 80 players I used to play, 2 are still playing the Game. - these are numbers I know for certain, and they don't look great IMO.
my $0.02:
all I can see is a system in place that favors the most played classes, which are Sorcs and DKs - other classes receive less attention because - oh well - people just doesn't really use them.
when I first saw this Game and how the skill system would work, I saw a lot of possibilities.. different ways of playing, different builds to try, etc - however, all I can see now is a few Sorc's and DK's all sharing pretty much the same 'build', same play-style and it seems the only way to be competitive in Cyrodill is running that same build.
trying new builds is pure frustration - to a point that even overcharging weapon damage, tons of crit chance (nearly 70%, which is pretty stupid because anyone running impenetrable is kinda safe from crits) and max out stamina - you finally understand "wow, the damage output is poor, there's no survival in the build and I can't even block because I need to use all stamina to try to do some damage" - not to say, you end up crafting gear sets that keep changing all the time - simply because TESTING never really existed.
I don't think it's a matter of pulling the plug, but certainly they could just remove two classes from the Game and keep with the other two that works as intended - or maybe, pull the plug.. it worked out pretty well for FF14.
PS: as someone mentioned above, the issues are not only PvP related - when the 'raids' and 'trials' came out, there was (there's still) a CLEAR preference to some classes over others - because some classes pull the numbers while others don't.Edited by daniel.ruiznrb18_ESO on September 21, 2014 10:44AM8 -
ers101284b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm in a 500 person guild all active within the week and pretty much everyone on there is in VR. Games doing amazingly.7 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's too early to ask ZOS to pull the plug, but you will always get someone saying pull the plug and start again. There were people saying it on my last MMO, which was fine, and there are people here saying it.
First it cost a lot to make a game, and if they restart, then those costs are wasted. A remake is only considered when the game has already failed.
Second, just because a game is flawed doesn't mean a remake is the best option. A lot of the issues will be in a new game too, and at the minute they are addressing most issues.
Third, just because Final Fantasy did it doesn't mean it would work for every game. Some games have tried it and just disappeared.
Fourth, I like this game, so leave it alone.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule4 -
daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nazon_Katts wrote: »Just do it. You've promised!
...
Since release we're facing retention rates lower than 80%. So even in the best scenario, there's just 32% of the initial player base around. Looking at stats from STEAM we haven't gained that many folks thru that venue, to boot they suffered from a way lower retention actually, just about 30%.
While the above is general data, the anecdotal reference is me witnessing folks complaining in low level zones, in mid level zones and end level zones about not having enough people around to successfully build a group for what ever content with.
While the above is MADE UP data,
There, fixed that for you.Edited by daneyulebub17_ESO on September 21, 2014 12:17PMThis message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your subscription to The Elder Scrolls Online. You will no longer be charged for a subscription on a recurring basis, and your access to the game will expire at the end of your current subscription cycle.
We're sad to see you go now, but we'll be happy to welcome you back at any time! Whenever you're ready to come back, your characters will be waiting for you, just like you left them. You can return anytime by resubscribing on the Manage Subscription page on your Elder Scrolls Online account.
Please print this email and keep it for your records.7 -
Csub✭✭✭✭✭That 32% of people playing is till just over 3 billion players so I do not think the situation is that bad. Also, don't forget that most statistics aren't updated till tomorrow, this week they sold copies of the game over 50000 times more than previous week so the numbers are likely to increase.
Luckily, the servers are capped at 10 billion people so we won't have any issues anytime soon, but if the predictions are correct and even these sales will increase by 120% each day, we might soon need another Megaserver!
Over 99% of the MMO players play this game and are very happy with it, 80% of them said they would continue playing if the cost of the game rose by over 350%.
Yes, I also like random numbers, way to go to hunt for LOLs :PEdited by Csub on September 21, 2014 12:27PM"The Divines gave you a nose for a reason, Tharn. So you can keep your mouth shut and still keep breathing. - Lyris Titanborn9 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭daniel.ruiznrb18_ESO wrote: »well,
when the Game was release, I created a Guild (small real-life friends guild) which got up to 14 players in ESO and I also joined another medium Guild with at least 60+ players(same timezone I live, a well formed and solid Guild, extremely active) - they were all people already in the Guild that decided to buy and play ESO, many apparently trying something other than WoW.
in the first Guild (real-life friends) there's 2 active - we were 4 until last patch, and now only are still active Sorcs (both) - one of them re-rolled from Templar because.....
on the other Guild, the one with 60+ is a bit sad.. people there understood very, very early how problematic ESO really was, and even thou leadership tried and tried, the numbers disappeared in less than 2 months.
this means, after 6 months from roughly 80 players I used to play, 2 are still playing the Game. - these are numbers I know for certain, and they don't look great IMO.
my $0.02:
all I can see is a system in place that favors the most played classes, which are Sorcs and DKs - other classes receive less attention because - oh well - people just doesn't really use them.
when I first saw this Game and how the skill system would work, I saw a lot of possibilities.. different ways of playing, different builds to try, etc - however, all I can see now is a few Sorc's and DK's all sharing pretty much the same 'build', same play-style and it seems the only way to be competitive in Cyrodill is running that same build.
trying new builds is pure frustration - to a point that even overcharging weapon damage, tons of crit chance (nearly 70%, which is pretty stupid because anyone running impenetrable is kinda safe from crits) and max out stamina - you finally understand "wow, the damage output is poor, there's no survival in the build and I can't even block because I need to use all stamina to try to do some damage" - not to say, you end up crafting gear sets that keep changing all the time - simply because TESTING never really existed.
I don't think it's a matter of pulling the plug, but certainly they could just remove two classes from the Game and keep with the other two that works as intended - or maybe, pull the plug.. it worked out pretty well for FF14.
PS: as someone mentioned above, the issues are not only PvP related - when the 'raids' and 'trials' came out, there was (there's still) a CLEAR preference to some classes over others - because some classes pull the numbers while others don't.
80 players isn't even remotely a good sample size nor is 2 out of 80 equal to 80%.
I'm not happy with the game either, but I don't just pull numbers out of thin air to support my claim. lolDear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.3 -
AreoHotah✭✭✭✭Nazon_Katts wrote: »Just do it. You've promised!
And then utilize the downtime to rework this game into something feasible. The system is flawed from the ground up and then some more... Building upon that pile of inconsistency leads us nowhere. Scrap it and rebuild.
Since release we're facing retention rates lower than 80%. So even in the best scenario, there's just 32% of the initial player base around. Looking at stats from STEAM we haven't gained that many folks thru that venue, to boot they suffered from a way lower retention actually, just about 30%.
While the above is general data, the anecdotal reference is me witnessing folks complaining in low level zones, in mid level zones and end level zones about not having enough people around to successfully build a group for what ever content with.
Wether that's due to population issues or phasing issues, it's killing the game . Or what's left of it. If you don't address and solve these issues, it's only downhill from now on.
Ultimately, it's going to force you to pull the plug or break your word. So rather do it now, while there's a game to salvage and to be rebuilt. Continuing to balance all effort on a flawed based will only do so much worse and never make it far.Expect alot of LOLS coming from hard minded fanbois. No matter how big and in your face the problem is, you wont get too much support here sorry l.
How is it that Im right all the time... Its like I know how this community is... Incredible...Hota'h, Dual-wield/bow full medium armor NB Khajiit from day 1.
https://imageshack.com/i/p2rF313Qj/b]3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »daniel.ruiznrb18_ESO wrote: »well,
when the Game was release, I created a Guild (small real-life friends guild) which got up to 14 players in ESO and I also joined another medium Guild with at least 60+ players(same timezone I live, a well formed and solid Guild, extremely active) - they were all people already in the Guild that decided to buy and play ESO, many apparently trying something other than WoW.
in the first Guild (real-life friends) there's 2 active - we were 4 until last patch, and now only are still active Sorcs (both) - one of them re-rolled from Templar because.....
on the other Guild, the one with 60+ is a bit sad.. people there understood very, very early how problematic ESO really was, and even thou leadership tried and tried, the numbers disappeared in less than 2 months.
this means, after 6 months from roughly 80 players I used to play, 2 are still playing the Game. - these are numbers I know for certain, and they don't look great IMO.
my $0.02:
all I can see is a system in place that favors the most played classes, which are Sorcs and DKs - other classes receive less attention because - oh well - people just doesn't really use them.
when I first saw this Game and how the skill system would work, I saw a lot of possibilities.. different ways of playing, different builds to try, etc - however, all I can see now is a few Sorc's and DK's all sharing pretty much the same 'build', same play-style and it seems the only way to be competitive in Cyrodill is running that same build.
trying new builds is pure frustration - to a point that even overcharging weapon damage, tons of crit chance (nearly 70%, which is pretty stupid because anyone running impenetrable is kinda safe from crits) and max out stamina - you finally understand "wow, the damage output is poor, there's no survival in the build and I can't even block because I need to use all stamina to try to do some damage" - not to say, you end up crafting gear sets that keep changing all the time - simply because TESTING never really existed.
I don't think it's a matter of pulling the plug, but certainly they could just remove two classes from the Game and keep with the other two that works as intended - or maybe, pull the plug.. it worked out pretty well for FF14.
PS: as someone mentioned above, the issues are not only PvP related - when the 'raids' and 'trials' came out, there was (there's still) a CLEAR preference to some classes over others - because some classes pull the numbers while others don't.
80 players isn't even remotely a good sample size nor is 2 out of 80 equal to 80%.
I'm not happy with the game either, but I don't just pull numbers out of thin air to support my claim. lol
It's been awhile, but 80 players should turn out a margin of error at around... what? 65%?1 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nazon_Katts wrote: »Just do it. You've promised!
And then utilize the downtime to rework this game into something feasible. The system is flawed from the ground up and then some more... Building upon that pile of inconsistency leads us nowhere. Scrap it and rebuild.
Since release we're facing retention rates lower than 80%. So even in the best scenario, there's just 32% of the initial player base around. Looking at stats from STEAM we haven't gained that many folks thru that venue, to boot they suffered from a way lower retention actually, just about 30%.
While the above is general data, the anecdotal reference is me witnessing folks complaining in low level zones, in mid level zones and end level zones about not having enough people around to successfully build a group for what ever content with.
Wether that's due to population issues or phasing issues, it's killing the game . Or what's left of it. If you don't address and solve these issues, it's only downhill from now on.
Ultimately, it's going to force you to pull the plug or break your word. So rather do it now, while there's a game to salvage and to be rebuilt. Continuing to balance all effort on a flawed based will only do so much worse and never make it far.Expect alot of LOLS coming from hard minded fanbois. No matter how big and in your face the problem is, you wont get too much support here sorry l.
How is it that Im right all the time... Its like I know how this community is... Incredible...
Ahh yes, the old "doesn't agree with made up statistics = fanboi"
Well played, sir.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.5 -
Csub✭✭✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »Nazon_Katts wrote: »Just do it. You've promised!
And then utilize the downtime to rework this game into something feasible. The system is flawed from the ground up and then some more... Building upon that pile of inconsistency leads us nowhere. Scrap it and rebuild.
Since release we're facing retention rates lower than 80%. So even in the best scenario, there's just 32% of the initial player base around. Looking at stats from STEAM we haven't gained that many folks thru that venue, to boot they suffered from a way lower retention actually, just about 30%.
While the above is general data, the anecdotal reference is me witnessing folks complaining in low level zones, in mid level zones and end level zones about not having enough people around to successfully build a group for what ever content with.
Wether that's due to population issues or phasing issues, it's killing the game . Or what's left of it. If you don't address and solve these issues, it's only downhill from now on.
Ultimately, it's going to force you to pull the plug or break your word. So rather do it now, while there's a game to salvage and to be rebuilt. Continuing to balance all effort on a flawed based will only do so much worse and never make it far.Expect alot of LOLS coming from hard minded fanbois. No matter how big and in your face the problem is, you wont get too much support here sorry l.
How is it that Im right all the time... Its like I know how this community is... Incredible...
Ahh yes, the old "doesn't agree with made up statistics = fanboi"
Well played, sir.
This and the made up statistics are the best way to argue on forums! Oh and don't forget the "if you don't do this (what I want), the game will die in *insert time period here*" arguments!"The Divines gave you a nose for a reason, Tharn. So you can keep your mouth shut and still keep breathing. - Lyris Titanborn3 -
Martinus72✭✭✭✭Yep, just another 'Wow is dying' BS thread which is luring whiners like s-word is luring flies.
No point to argue with them and their doom and gloom theories, just ignore and enjoy the game.
Oh yes go ahead and call me 'fanboy' because I dare to enjoy this game, every time it brings smile to my face and makes my day
2 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Idk about currently dying but this game does need a serious overhaul.
I am a PvEer and a Templar.
I need class love just the same as anyone else XD
All jokes aside, Templars seem to be the red headed step child of this game, and while we're ok in PvP, in PvE we're locked into one role and usually can only get in one at a time at that as healers.
I want to play my paladin archetype, but alas, it seems to not be allowedBobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!2 -
Marthenil✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Idk about currently dying but this game does need a serious overhaul.
I am a PvEer and a Templar.
I need class love just the same as anyone else XD
All jokes aside, Templars seem to be the red headed step child of this game, and while we're ok in PvP, in PvE we're locked into one role and usually can only get in one at a time at that as healers.
I want to play my paladin archetype, but alas, it seems to not be allowed
I know and share your issue with heavy armor, but till that gets fixed try this and you won't be disappointed.
If people deny you spots in groups, then find other people that are not ***.
On topic: There is no huge enough issue in the game currently that requires "pulling the plug". If you do believe so, you are simply inexperienced with how MMOs work and evolve.
Take a look at WoWs evolution. How stats, roles, classes have evolved.
Take a look at vanilla's balance. Now take a look at today's balance.
The game is completely changed.
MMO launches are all about setting a foundation. Balance, polish and features will all come eventually. They are not single player games that simply launch.
And ZOS is doing a pretty good job so far, only being behind GW2 in terms of content release.
PS: The first one to bring up the "but this is 2014" argument gets slapped.
P.PS: inb4 post gets dismissed as fanboyism, no matter how true it might be.Edited by Marthenil on September 21, 2014 1:21PM4 -
Aoife32001✭✭✭✭mmmm "statistics"
I did a rough translation of the original post into non-hyperbole, and it came out something like this: "ESO isn't what I wanted it to be, so the game will fail miserably".
Seriously though, are there problems with the game? Sure. Is it going to sink the game within the next 12 months? Probably not. Are they going to pull the plug because someone's complaining on their forums? Hell no. If the game does fail, will the sun fall from the sky and the seas turn to blood? No... relax and if you don't like playing it, stop paying for it. No matter how much you or anyone else complain, it's not going to turn this game into DAoC, WoW, offline Elder Scrolls, or anything else. Coming to it expecting anything other than--that's right, ESO!--will set you up for disappointment, because, well, it's none of those games, for better or for worse.
As for statistics, you would actually have to have hard data on server-wide player subscription and de-sub rates over time, as well as comparative studies of how other MMOs' population levels moved over time, and particularly in the first year. I have an inkling that most games experience drops after the initial release. The crucial question is whether or not it levels out over time in a sustainable way and, no matter how many "guildies" of yours stopped playing, that's not statistically relevant, but merely anecdotal (and notoriously unreliable) and gets us nowhere. Hell, the OP might be right, but it certainly isn't because he or seemingly anyone else is presenting a good argument toward that end. Whether ESO will stand or fall depends on how much consumers feel that ZoS is responding to issues and demands and, to be honest, it seems (now I'm anecdotal!) that most but the hard-core PvPers and competitive PvEers are content. Unfortunately, though, there are no hard statistics available, so we're all just guessing at this point. Only time will tell.Edited by Aoife32001 on September 21, 2014 2:02PM3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aoife32001 wrote: »mmmm "statistics"
I did a rough translation of the original post into non-hyperbole, and it came out something like this: "ESO isn't what I wanted it to be, so the game will fail miserably".
Seriously though, are there problems with the game? Sure. Is it going to sink the game within the next 12 months? Probably not. Are they going to pull the plug because someone's complaining on their forums? Hell no. If the game does fail, will the sun fall from the sky and the seas turn to blood? No... relax and if you don't like playing it, stop paying for it. No matter how much you or anyone else complain, it's not going to turn this game into DAoC, WoW, offline Elder Scrolls, or anything else. Coming to it expecting anything other than--that's right--ESO!, will set you up for disappointment, because, well, it's none of those games, for better or for worse.
As for statistics, you would actually have to have hard data on server-wide player subscription and de-sub rates over time, as well as comparative studies of how other MMOs population levels moved over time, and particularly in the first year. I have an inkling that most games experience drops after the initial release. The crucial question is whether or not it levels out over time in a sustainable way and, no matter how many "guildies" of your stopped playing, that's not statistically representative and gets us no where. Hell, the OP might be right, but it certainly isn't because he or seemingly anyone else is presenting a good argument toward that end.
About the most charitable thing I can say, regarding the original poster's anecdotal experience is, MMO launches are rough. Games frequently launch to massive sales and see most of (that is to say more than half of) their population disappear in the first 30 days. Any site that tracks MMO subscription data should show you that in action, including Steam for any number of games.
Launches are when a game is at it's worst. The population is overloaded, systems are breaking from strain, bugs that were never found before live, or couldn't be fixed before launch are front and center.
And... a lot of people say, "nope, not for me" and leave.
You'll have entire guilds just pick up and vanish. Players don't stick with it, and disappear.
Saying, "well there are a lot less people now then at launch is a sign that the end times are coming!" is a little disingenuous.
Also, and this is based on personal observation, so feel free to disagree. As you move through a linear MMO, and enter higher level zones, the population will diminish. ESO's a little strange in that The Rift, Bangkorai, and Reaper's March are all very active for how far in the game they are. But after those, there's a very sharp drop off heading into Cold Harbour, and an even sharper drop moving into the Vet 1 zones.
As you're advancing through the game, it could provide the illusion that the game is dying. When, really, what you're seeing is a transition to a smaller subsection of the game's population.
If you really think the game is dying, pick up and travel back to where you first stepped out of Cold Harbour back after you finished the tutorial. Walk around, listen to zone (if your sanity can handle that), look at the crowds of players. They're still here. You've just gotten to places most of them will never see.3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would be willing to "pull the plug" on the forums, since I think that the retention rate of forum users is going down. I think that most of the active players have left the forums.
As for retention in the game, is there actually anyone out there that is actively counting players in the game? If not, then don't waste my time.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is such a thing as having realistic expectations, OP.
There is also such a thing as being an educated consumer. You know... doing research before you buy.
There is even such a thing as knowing when to leave a losing battle. If you feel that the game is not worth your time, effort, and most especially money than take it elsewhere.
Personally, I came to this game during beta knowing full well it was going to be a total gamble, given that I did actually research the players at ZoS, what they have and have not done to date, and what could be expected given that information.
Demanding the game simply be scrapped solves nothing, since we are talking about essenatially a noob-to-MMO developer who is currently paying it's dues, through our experience of the game and our expense in subbing to it. That ZoS continues to dramatically shift gears on some things in the game tells a lot.
And to the "fanboi" labelers: I am not blind. I not happy with the amount of issues I have seen not work right in the game. Yet I have also seen a lot that does work not only right, but spot on so I do not agree the game is "broken."
I think the only way you are going to see positive progress in this - or any other title for that matter - is by giving the game some time to gel. Flapping about and squawking everything in the game is broken so therefore just pull the plug doesn't make you appear as anything except exaggerated, let alone foolish actually since if that is really your view why the heck are you even still here?
If you want balance in the game, try some in your opinions - you actually have more productive conversations with ppl let alone impact on the game in the long run.2 -
Redlag✭✭✭The worst thing about the game is the way the PvP crowd conned themselves into believing that this was going to be a PvP-centric game. They do it every time. Every new MMO is going to be DAoC 2, and it never is.
That's because every new MMO wants those PvPer subs so they tease them with: "we hired DAoC PvP maps designer" or "we hired DAoC gameplay team" and so on.
Then people start playing the new "DAoC gold-finger-touched" MMO and discover it's just the umpteenth piece of crap.
I concur. I will never pay for another mmo that spends millions in development and doesn't create their own engine. Never again.
DAoC, ESO, and Mark Jacobs mmo (WHO) were all downhill disasters. They had good games and they both (Jacobs and Firor) went about undoing them. In DAoC and in WHO, if you ever played DAoC and know of Sanya Thomas, and you we're concerned with balance or the way the game was heading.. If you voiced it, you quickly met the Pendragon elites, that have helped these two developers ruin game after game. Pendragon was a test server in DAoC. Again, if you were concerned about the state of the game and went to test on pendragon or voice your opinion. You quickly met their elites. They chided you, they corrected your grammar, and teamed up with a cult like defense mentality to shame or scold anyone with a differing opinion. That's why I mention Sanya Thomas, who openly stated in her DAoC's grab bags, a weekly update of the game on their webpage. She openly stated with the Pendragon elite attitude, if your grammar isn't correct I will not read your post or answer any questions.
They have had private forums for this crowd (the pendragon elite and DAoC devs) through every game I've played made by these developers. In any case the same thing happens in each game over and over. They take good games and run them into the ground. They use other developers engines that are always quirky and have bugs that they are unable to fix in any way. This one is worse than DAoCs and WHO's, because all those games did was create static and glitch you, lag you if you were in a zone lines or moving through them.
Anyways, take WHO's Bright Wizard and ESO's DragonKnight. Same thing. One overpowered fire caster doing way better, designed way better than the other classes and one healer to team with them to heal them that is utterly as overpowered and just as unkillable, the Templar (LOL DAoC midgard healers that had a 10 second stun that was unbreakable at release).. Their reflects, their shields, their stuns, their CC, between them in group vs group (not 1v1 or gank gameplay) is ridiculous while are your Sorc and Nightblades are dropping like flies. Now look at the Nightblade and the witch hunter from WHO. The stealthier assassins. I tested the witch hunter extensively in WHO. It was balanced completely in beta. Right at release they gutted it's dps for no reason (same as the other teams assassin). Why, because Pendragon players don't like to die on their Bright wizard, Dragon knights, and they don't want their wives healing them on their Templars to die either to rogue, assassin, nightblades.
In DAoC, this team up of devs with bad idea players in their inner circle ran off 235k players back when their 250k was a lot in 2001. The devs, didn't say oh no!! our bad, let us reset this and make it right. They simply didn't care. It's not play your way. It's play what we design and shut up and like it. Apparently they were happy with 15K players. Which leads me to believe that their designing games for them and their inner circle. Which probably stems from muds. I would never invest in a game created or pitched by them. I gave Firor a chance here, believing someone had created all the glory that was DAoC emain and someone decided to ignore what the players were enjoying and destroy it. I thought it was Mark Jacobs ruining the games. Now, Im convinced they both are influenced repeatedly by the bad pendragon inner circle and will continue to ruin game after game listening to them.
Edited by Redlag on September 21, 2014 9:00PM1
