Non-staff heavy attacks restore stamina = Problems.

Phinix1 · September 2014

I know that stamina builds need work, in fact I have proposed a few potential solutions myself. This however feels perhaps a little rushed considering we have yet to adequately address certain "features" of the game which everyone seems to use that will potentially cause a great imbalance when this goes live.

I am speaking of course of ANIMATION CANCELLING.

There is a twofold problem with this suggested "fix."

A person could potentially restore their entire stamina bar in seconds by animation cancelling heavy attacks with block repeatedly.
Stamina builds currently rely on clipping heavy attacks with a weapon ability to do competitive damage in trials. If they nerf animation cancelling to implement this fix, you will have plenty of stamina to do sub-par DPS.

A much better solution would be to do as I have proposed and create Stamina-based options for class skill morphs.

I appreciate they want to fix the problem, and probably think they can save time by doing this instead of the above, but it seems to me that the balance and exploit issues they will potentially introduce with this will end up taking more time to sort out than simply hiring the animation team to come back for a month or two and get those stamina morphs in-game.

Drazhar14 · September 2014

Unless the stamina restore scales with charge time. But yes, animation cancelling is a problem that needs to be fixed also. I think the stamina restore on heavy attacks is a good idea. Heavy attacks should also break blocks. This way, the players who use block casting the whole fight would actually need to use some skill and watch for heavy attacks to perform a bash before their guard gets broken.

Circuitous · September 2014

Circuitous wrote: »

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Neizir wrote: »

[*] Stamina updates: Heavy attacks with all non-staff weapons now return stamina. More improvements to follow.

I'm very curious how this will turn out. Although the practice is not as prevalent (yet), heavy attacks can be clipped in a much similar way as light attacks, and the fact that the devs did not account for animation cancelling at all is one of the reasons the current ability balancing is somewhat out of whack right now.

I'm a bit anxious to see how this will turn out, but any buffs for stamina are good in my book.

Restoration Staff power attack only restores magicka at the end of the animation, canceling it gives you nothing.

Melee and bow power attacks do less damage if you cancel the animation early or use a skill before the wind-up is complete. It would be trivial to only apply the stamina regen when the full wind-up is completed.

Quoting myself 'cuz we apparently needed another thread on the subject.

Also, we have no idea how much Stamina this restores, but let's say it's 10% - on par with the Restoration Staff. You'd need ten power attacks, at about a 0.5 second charge time each, doing relatively piddly damage compared to pretty much any skill. Given your concern about DPS, I'm surprised you think this would be a balance issue.

Also note that canceling a power attack animation by blocking doesn't instantly let you start power attacking again, there's actually a pretty significant delay (as much as I like canceling skills/attacks with blocking for defense, it's actually not particularly helpful for DPS at all - even if it cuts the animation short, you're stuck for a while before you can do anything else). So if someone wants to burn 10+ seconds getting all their Stamina back, more power to 'em, I say. Too bad they're probably dead.

Karnus · September 2014

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Super_Sonico · September 2014

I think it's stupid because a) the wind up time is much to long for too little gain to use heavy attacks in PvP and b) No one uses heavy attacks in PvP. Might as well just pop the stam pot. It won't be better than that.

Not a fix is not a fix.

Manoekin · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I know that stamina builds need work, in fact I have proposed a few potential solutions myself. This however feels perhaps a little rushed considering we have yet to adequately address certain "features" of the game which everyone seems to use that will potentially cause a great imbalance when this goes live.

I am speaking of course of ANIMATION CANCELLING.

There is a twofold problem with this suggested "fix."
A person could potentially restore their entire stamina bar in seconds by animation cancelling heavy attacks with block repeatedly.

Stamina builds currently rely on clipping heavy attacks with a weapon ability to do competitive damage in trials. If they nerf animation cancelling to implement this fix, you will have plenty of stamina to do sub-par DPS.

A much better solution would be to do as I have proposed and create Stamina-based options for class skill morphs.

I appreciate they want to fix the problem, and probably think they can save time by doing this instead of the above, but it seems to me that the balance and exploit issues they will potentially introduce with this will end up taking more time to sort out than simply hiring the animation team to come back for a month or two and get those stamina morphs in-game.

The heavy attack for resto only restores your magicka if you complete the heavy attack. I can only imagine it will be the same for the stamina weapons.

Phinix1 · September 2014

Manoekin wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I know that stamina builds need work, in fact I have proposed a few potential solutions myself. This however feels perhaps a little rushed considering we have yet to adequately address certain "features" of the game which everyone seems to use that will potentially cause a great imbalance when this goes live.

I am speaking of course of ANIMATION CANCELLING.

There is a twofold problem with this suggested "fix."
A person could potentially restore their entire stamina bar in seconds by animation cancelling heavy attacks with block repeatedly.

Stamina builds currently rely on clipping heavy attacks with a weapon ability to do competitive damage in trials. If they nerf animation cancelling to implement this fix, you will have plenty of stamina to do sub-par DPS.

A much better solution would be to do as I have proposed and create Stamina-based options for class skill morphs.

I appreciate they want to fix the problem, and probably think they can save time by doing this instead of the above, but it seems to me that the balance and exploit issues they will potentially introduce with this will end up taking more time to sort out than simply hiring the animation team to come back for a month or two and get those stamina morphs in-game.

The heavy attack for resto only restores your magicka if you complete the heavy attack. I can only imagine it will be the same for the stamina weapons.

Actually, probably not. Well, that's not a good comparison anyway.

Both resto and lightning staff do several ticks of damage before the final tick. For resto the final tick does the restore, and for lightning, the final tick does more damage than the previous ticks.

Stamina weapons however, have only one tick. So, they could easily be animation-cancelled.

DenverRalphy · September 2014

If you cancel the attack before the heavy attack fires, then it's not a heavy attack. Only a partial. Cancel halfway through the windup, and the ensuing attack isn't a heavy attack. Granted, it's more than a light attack, but it's still not a heavy.

Not really seeing the problem.

Varicite · September 2014

OP sounds like he is creating an issue where there probably isn't one.

Let's test the stamina restoration mechanic and then tell them what needs to be fixed, maybe? Hopefully this change hits the PTS before it hits live, but I'm not so sure it will.

But there are a number of ways this non-issue could be solved:

Give partial stamina restore for partial heavy attacks. Give stamina restore on full heavy attacks only, etc.

There is no reason that both staves (the only magicka-based weapons) should be the only weapons in the game to restore resources, on top of the existence of Equilibrium, on top of magicka being used for less than half the things that stamina is.

AshySamurai · September 2014

It's not necessary to block for AC. You also can use any magika skill and cancel light/heavy attack. But to cancel skill animation you need to use block. So you can burn magika and restore stamina.

DaniAngione · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

A much better solution would be to do as I have proposed and create Stamina-based options for class skill morphs.

Well, then
http://jobs.zenimax.com/

zbtiqua · September 2014

I'm glad they are trying to buff stam, but the primary problem I have with this plan is that... well it makes no sense. Why would hitting something extremely hard with a sword replenish your energy?

I agree with the OP. Stam based morphs are a better option. Also... just make stam abilities cost less stam, increase regeneration, or increase damage.

ExiledKhallisi · September 2014

Drazhar14 wrote: »

Unless the stamina restore scales with charge time. But yes, animation cancelling is a problem that needs to be fixed also. I think the stamina restore on heavy attacks is a good idea. Heavy attacks should also break blocks. This way, the players who use block casting the whole fight would actually need to use some skill and watch for heavy attacks to perform a bash before their guard gets broken.

Heavy attacks should break block is the best idea i have ever heard.

GnatB · September 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Drazhar14 wrote: »

Unless the stamina restore scales with charge time. But yes, animation cancelling is a problem that needs to be fixed also. I think the stamina restore on heavy attacks is a good idea. Heavy attacks should also break blocks. This way, the players who use block casting the whole fight would actually need to use some skill and watch for heavy attacks to perform a bash before their guard gets broken.

Heavy attacks should break block is the best idea i have ever heard.

Humerously, the implementation is currently the exact opposite. Blocks break heavy attacks, putting the attacker off balance. (and likely on their butt from the followup attack). That said, one idea to make blocking more player skill based, (if we're trying to turn this into an action game, instead of an RPG, which I don't particularly agree with) would be to do something you frequently already see in action games. Take *much* less damage (a.k.a. none) if you block at just the right time as opposed to simply having the block up during the attack. (Just Guard in Soul Caliber, I believe?)

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I know that stamina builds need work, in fact I have proposed a few potential solutions myself. This however feels perhaps a little rushed considering we have yet to adequately address certain "features" of the game which everyone seems to use that will potentially cause a great imbalance when this goes live.

I am speaking of course of ANIMATION CANCELLING.

There is a twofold problem with this suggested "fix."
A person could potentially restore their entire stamina bar in seconds by animation cancelling heavy attacks with block repeatedly.

Stamina builds currently rely on clipping heavy attacks with a weapon ability to do competitive damage in trials. If they nerf animation cancelling to implement this fix, you will have plenty of stamina to do sub-par DPS.

A much better solution would be to do as I have proposed and create Stamina-based options for class skill morphs.

I appreciate they want to fix the problem, and probably think they can save time by doing this instead of the above, but it seems to me that the balance and exploit issues they will potentially introduce with this will end up taking more time to sort out than simply hiring the animation team to come back for a month or two and get those stamina morphs in-game.

My understanding is that with most weapons, in order to actually get the heavy attack, you have to cancel it after most of the animation is over anyways, so I'm not really sure there's an issue there. I've been under the impression it's mostly *light* attacks that are weaved in for DPS.

Faulgor · September 2014

zbtiqua wrote: »

I'm glad they are trying to buff stam, but the primary problem I have with this plan is that... well it makes no sense. Why would hitting something extremely hard with a sword replenish your energy?

I agree with the OP. Stam based morphs are a better option. Also... just make stam abilities cost less stam, increase regeneration, or increase damage.

Indeed, if they wanted to increase the available stamina pool, they already have the tools - i.e., they should just increase stamina recovery in combat or lower ability cost.
Heck, if they wanted to tie it to a new mechanic, they should hugely increase stamina regeneration when standing still (with a melee weapon / bow equipped). This would be a mechanic that requires some foresight in a game that forces you to move around alot and it would make more sense than their current plan.

tordr86b16_ESO · September 2014

Lets say a heavy attack takes 2 seconds to charge fully. It restores 10 stamina, if you cancel it, it's still going to be half of the max or whichever formula they have planned for it. Half charging a heavy attack won't give the full damage as if it was charged fully, that is not how it works.

david271749 · September 2014

@AlienDiplomat

Can't tell if you're for or against animation cancelling anymore.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

If they nerf animation cancelling to implement this fix, you will have plenty of stamina to do sub-par DPS.

Have they said they plan on nefing it? As far as I know they said it wasn't intended, but they know people are doing it.

tordr86b16_ESO · September 2014

david271749 wrote: »

@AlienDiplomat

Can't tell if you're for or against animation cancelling anymore.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

If they nerf animation cancelling to implement this fix, you will have plenty of stamina to do sub-par DPS.

Have they said they plan on nefing it? As far as I know they said it wasn't intended, but they know people are doing it.

They are not nerfing it, and they have stated, as have forum posters repeatedly said: It is not an EXPLOIT / CHEAT.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2015

Seeing as resto heavy attacks give you 30% magic back and heavy without a staff is only 10% caster have nothing to qq about

Forestd16b14_ESO · January 2015

Super_Sonico wrote: »

I think it's stupid because a) the wind up time is much to long for too little gain to use heavy attacks in PvP and b) No one uses heavy attacks in PvP. Might as well just pop the stam pot. It won't be better than that.

Not a fix is not a fix.

Well I do use heavy attacks in PvP cause surprise they do alot of damage.......... But as you said it does take way to long to charge up and what ever health they lost form it they insta-heal it all back....... So heavy attacks are pretty good in PvP but due to them takeing so long to charge up and every one able to insta-heal ... no that useful ..... maybe as a finisher like your out of stamina and can't use any of the finisher skills like Impale or excecutioner then heavy attack can be good. But yea honestly saying stamina regen from physical heavy attacks like bows and swords is a problem and broken ...... I honestly have no words to say about that. Any one mind finding the words I'm looking for.

Warraxx · January 2015

you only get stam on "fully-charged" heavy attacks...

nvm, necro'd thread

Forestd16b14_ESO · January 2015

Wait he said animation cancelation .... as in reload cancel ? This isn't CoD.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2015

And it's not enough stamina having to block, attack, CC break, roll and with Rally heal all with one bar getting 30% stamina back the way resto staff does would be a far more balanced game as it stand you don't even need to use healing powers for your resto staff to give you back magic healers or not even a quarter of the people using healing staffs