Why So Restrictive?

Maverick827 · August 2014

Has it ever been explained why the API is so restrictive?

I understand there might be certain types of addons that Zenimax might not want to exist. Probably the most contentions of addons among players would be group damage meters. For that case, I can, for example, extrapolate why Zenimax doesn't let us see other player's combat events.

I could also understand restricting functions that help enable bots and other such things, though I would argue that bots don't need GUI addons to exist (obviously, given this game's tumultuous first months), so any restrictions meant to impede bots only impedes developers and players.

But there are dozens if not hundreds of basic features missing (or removed) and I can't imagine that all of them lead to questionable types of addons like damage meters and gear scores.

This is all exacerbated due to various shortcomings that should be default, could be handled with addons, but can't be created due to seemingly arbitrary restrictions.

Recently I looked into making an addon that displays the Expert Hunter buff, taking into account the increased duration from killing undead. While this is something that should be default, at least, I figured, it should be pretty simple to fix with an addon. When you activate Expert Hunter, start a timer. When you score a killing blow on an undead enemy, increase the timer by 15 seconds. Simple.

Apparently, however, EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT doesn't register activating buff abilities. Why? While there are workarounds available to determine when the player activates an ability...why obfuscate this? But okay, at least it's possible...

Then I ran into another issue. It doesn't look like ACTION_RESULT_KILLING_BLOW triggers for NPC kills. Why?

We get ACTION_RESULT_DIED, which seems to fire when my character sneezes out of combat while I'm afk. Like most things, it has zero documentation and I wasn't about to waste my time figuring it out. What dire consequence is this preventing?

Anyone developing addons for this game can tell you that they have run into cases that forced them to think "okay, I guess I just can't do that because...I don't know. Blah, that's so dumb. Whatever, I guess I can't do this project now."

I'm sorry if I sound irate, but it is exceedingly frustrating using this API, and I can't even find a justification for these practices. What I can find are many, many posts from beta developers equally flabbergasted as to why so much functionality was removed. I've seen countless posts from developers that have essentially read "Yeah, that's not possible anymore. They removed that event/function for some reason. Sorry, but it's out of my hands."

Cogo · August 2014

First. I am all for anyone in ESO playing the game their way. That's what ESO is and they allow addons.

Need to make sure about this fact that anyone have to accept who plays ESO.

I do not use addons, but mainly because from launch until now really, I didn't feel like having to update addons every day or even have them broken and not working. Because that's how MMOs works in the start.

When I find an addon I like, I will use it. So far, I have not really seen anything else then in game calender Tamriel time, with Tamriel Lore months. And the bank manager I should use really...

However, I been considering some kind of damage meter, combat analyzer, for curious reasons. I have been kinda starting to like Cyrodiil more and more lately and I can craft most sets, so I've been testing several setups and sets to see what works, effects etc.

I found that similar to EQ, where you got 0 info (first few years), I could tell what was more or less effective. stamina/HP/Magika effects etc. Not in numbers, but in different ways. Not because I am smart....cause I'm not! Since I have 0 addons and plays a lot, I can "tell" the difference. Just like I can "smell" where a skyshard is (since I don't use addon or google for that. This is a side effect from me being interested in exploring. I simply got better to see differences without using a tool.

What are you seeking to find out? I wonder if its not possible to do it without depending on Zenimax to give out the right API?

Why wait on them, if you don't need to?

Again, this has nothing to do with not using addons. Zenimax allows them. End of story.

thorspark · September 2014

For buffs and debuffs such as expert hunter, rally, dots ... not beeing able to track them is a real issue in endgame content.

I can't be counting on my head all of them 15 sec for this one, 20 for that one, 1m for the third, refresh that very 10 sec etc.

Since Trials for exemple require a high sustained dps (and it's even worse on 1.4), the option to track every buff/debuff should be enabled, if not IG, at least in the API for addons.

Dominoid · September 2014

thorspark wrote: »

For buffs and debuffs such as expert hunter, rally, dots ... not beeing able to track them is a real issue in endgame content.

I can't be counting on my head all of them 15 sec for this one, 20 for that one, 1m for the third, refresh that very 10 sec etc.

Since Trials for exemple require a high sustained dps (and it's even worse on 1.4), the option to track every buff/debuff should be enabled, if not IG, at least in the API for addons.

Total problem in endgame content. We should be able to run trials in 5 minutes but are limited to 6 minutes due to these restrictions.

Seriously? Where is it a "real issue"?

Dominoid · September 2014

To OP:

Per Mr Sage on the Reddit Q&A at the time:

"We had to make decisions that were based on trying to make sure competitive elements of the game, both PvE and PvP had as level of a playing field as possible. As our API was in Beta, it exposed certain functions that made 'macro programs' much easier to abuse. Also, there were functions which were exposed that let the API display information not readily available to the normal game client, thus making some players feel they would be forced to use add-ons to remain competitive.

While we are very aware this was going to hurt some add-ons, we felt these decisions were necessary. We certainly tried to keep in things which would still allow for damage numbers to be seen, and what was happening to your character to be seen. As we get deeper into launch, we can always re-evaluate what is available and what isn't"

Wykkyd · September 2014

Their API nerfs did exactly ZERO to stop macro'ing the game OR bots. It was a flimsy excuse then. It's a flimsy excuse now.

Gillysan · September 2014

Wykkyd wrote: »

Their API nerfs did exactly ZERO to stop macro'ing the game OR bots. It was a flimsy excuse then. It's a flimsy excuse now.

Man speaks truth.

However, I must point out that Expert Hunter has a visual effect, that blue glow on your weapon. I like it! Except when the graphics fails.

There is an audio queue also associated with it.

This is all important: always provide in-game feedback. Copy/paste the link to the forum discussion.

Aenra · September 2014

- you remove convenience addons, or the allowance for creating them, you shoo away the ADD people. ADD is like idiocy. Neither plague makes age, sex or social distinctions. What with the way cultures evolve, what with globalisation and how it has affected the (lack of) differentiation in mentalities, this is sadly a huge percentage. We are back to people now, hold on with me. In and outside of MMOs. M for massively, and this is an AAA title. Can't lose those people

- you also can't remove buff/debuff/counter API allowances. Not when you STILL use 1970s RPG mechnics. Few dared to 'renovate', but eventually failed. (Chronicles of Spellborn comes to mind, combat wise. Twitch in some other elements) Good ideas, but no one to bother familiarising themselves with them.. it's like reading. Why bother when there is audio text.. who needs books anyway

- you can't disallow UI element skinning, re-drawing, etc, or shouldn't, when you do not provide such options yourself

- you shouldn't allow macros, but you should also have a system in place where fastest fingers ( =age ) need not entail success. Hard to avoid that in AAAs, it relies on patience. See first paragraph. See why turn based combat died. And before you tell me we do not have macros here, we also do not have a type of combat that relies on brain rather than clickety-clicking

- whatever you can manage within these parameters, has to be further dilluted by the voices of few but overly vocal forum dwellers..half of which are just here for the next MMO, half of which are single player fans..have you read our forums? To get an idea? So in the end, why are you surprised it is what it is?

basically, once again we skim the surface, ie we are doing what we blame others for enforcing upon us, ie a self fullfiling prophecy; what we should be doing is trying the novel, the different, the niche

instead, we just haggle..give a bit more here, remove a tad from there.
It is not the API, it is what it sustains. The mentality of the majority

Gillysan · September 2014

Cogo wrote: »

.......see above....

What are you seeking to find out? I wonder if its not possible to do it without depending on Zenimax to give out the right API?

Why wait on them, if you don't need to?

Again, this has nothing to do with not using addons. Zenimax allows them. End of story.

Cogo, you don't really understand the request from the OP. Plus you don't like addons for yourself so it leaves me scratching my head as to why you even replied.

Aenra wrote: »

- you remove convenience addons, or the allowance for creating them, you shoo away the ADD people. ADD is like idiocy. Neither plague makes age, sex or social distinctions. What with the way cultures evolve, what with globalisation and how it has affected the (lack of) differentiation in mentalities, this is sadly a huge percentage. We are back to people now, hold on with me. In and outside of MMOs. M for massively, and this is an AAA title. Can't lose those people

- you also can't remove buff/debuff/counter API allowances. Not when you STILL use 1970s RPG mechnics. Few dared to 'renovate', but eventually failed. (Chronicles of Spellborn comes to mind, combat wise. Twitch in some other elements) Good ideas, but no one to bother familiarising themselves with them.. it's like reading. Why bother when there is audio text.. who needs books anyway

- you can't disallow UI element skinning, re-drawing, etc, or shouldn't, when you do not provide such options yourself

- you shouldn't allow macros, but you should also have a system in place where fastest fingers ( =age ) need not entail success. Hard to avoid that in AAAs, it relies on patience. See first paragraph. See why turn based combat died. And before you tell me we do not have macros here, we also do not have a type of combat that relies on brain rather than clickety-clicking

- whatever you can manage within these parameters, has to be further dilluted by the voices of few but overly vocal forum dwellers..half of which are just here for the next MMO, half of which are single player fans..have you read our forums? To get an idea? So in the end, why are you surprised it is what it is?

basically, once again we skim the surface, ie we are doing what we blame others for enforcing upon us, ie a self fullfiling prophecy; what we should be doing is trying the novel, the different, the niche
instead, we just haggle..give a bit more here, remove a tad from there.
It is not the API, it is what it sustains. The mentality of the majority

What the hell does your treatise on the human condition have to do with a application programming nuts & bolts issue?

Lizelle · September 2014

Wykkyd wrote: »

Their API nerfs did exactly ZERO to stop macro'ing the game OR bots. It was a flimsy excuse then. It's a flimsy excuse now.

I couldn't agree more. Seeing buff/debuff info and a combat log is needed in a MMO... Especially if they keep building end game content with DPS checks...