Man, there are a whole lot of people in this thread who fancy themselves to be game developers.

Believe it or not, balancing a game isn't done by pressing a button. It isn't done by repeatedly making a lot of fancy changes that don't actually address the problem. It's done by methodically looking at the root of the issue and addressing it in a way that doesn't destroy the core mechanics of the game while simultaneously making a major change to a large part of the combat system. Sound hard? That's because it is.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Man, there are a whole lot of people in this thread who fancy themselves to be game developers.

Believe it or not, balancing a game isn't done by pressing a button. It isn't done by repeatedly making a lot of fancy changes that don't actually address the problem. It's done by methodically looking at the root of the issue and addressing it in a way that doesn't destroy the core mechanics of the game while simultaneously making a major change to a large part of the combat system. Sound hard? That's because it is.

If they don't know how to do it, then no one will.

Tell me, what considerations would need to be done to increase the amount of damage a weapon does? The game comes down dps, weapons don't have this.

Specifics instead of generalised statements would be useful here.

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

You might think they're being incompetent, but take note that your complaints aren't original; they've been happening since the dawn of the MMO genre, so either all MMO developers are incompetent, or you simply don't understand the industry.

My guess is the latter.

Either way they'll sort these problems out sooner or later. Just be patient.

The "industry" is a little generic. They have the ability to analyse, test and implement changes within a reasonable period of time.My work includes the releasing of software, and I analyse, test issues myself so I do have an understanding of software development and release cycles, fixes etcin general. Labelling it an MMO thing is too easy.

I think the incompetence lies in the original design of stamina builds. Many people, not just myself, saw this during the beta stages.

If there's an International Standard which specifies how the design and releases of MMOs must be, point me to it.

Perhaps I should have worded my reply better, but either way I was simply defending the developers for issues that are typical in this industry.

It's easy to point a finger and claim incompetence, but at this level (a top game design company working on one of the most successful franchises in gaming history) mistakes are few and far between. I'm not claiming that it isn't a bumpy ride or that they don't make mistakes, I'm simply saying that these 'issues' are commonplace among games of this magnitude.

I can't really reply to your last comment. I don't remember eluding to any International Standard. My comments referring to 'the industry' could be put down to semantics; I'm merely referring to developers who work on large scale/popular MMO titles.

I'm not sure whether you're trying to be condescending and or knowledgeable. My guess is a bit of both.

Your input is of little value to me as I'm aware of the difficulties around software design, however when the fundamental premise of macgika being stronger was first shown it seemed like either a preference or incompetence. If you have a reason why the devs wanted stamina to be on par with magicka then fire away but could not achieve this due to limitations, otherwise it just appears that you're talking in generalities without offering much information.

I'm talking in generalities because I don't have the specifics in order to comment on why they made this design choice. I wasn't trying to be condescending and I'm certainly not claiming to be knowledgeable on the subject of the Stamina imbalance.

One mistake doesn't equal incompetence, and If we were all held accountable for every single mistake we ever made, we'd all be considered incompetent in just about all aspects of our lives. You said yourself that you're aware of the difficulties surrounding software design, so you should know better than most that this isn't down to incompetence, but rather an oversight that can and most certainly will be remedied.

None of my replies were aimed at solving the stamina issue, as the team already seem to have a plan regarding that. I just wanted people to relax and have a little faith. This issue will be fixed and all will be forgotten.

Exarch wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

It seems completely reasonable to me, from a software design perspective. This is not a 'fix', in the same terms of hey, there's a number wrong in the code and this ability isn't behaving correctly, what people want is essentially a total redesign of the way the ability system was originally designed; that comes with an enormous amount of risk, and requires a commensurate amount of planning.

Don't you think the games initial development stages would have been the best time to do that planning?

Pseudonym wrote: »

One mistake doesn't equal incompetence, and If we were all held accountable for every single mistake we ever made, we'd all be considered incompetent in just about all aspects of our lives. You said yourself that you're aware of the difficulties surrounding software design, so you should know better than most that this isn't down to incompetence, but rather an oversight that can and most certainly will be remedied.

None of my replies were aimed at solving the stamina issue, as the team already seem to have a plan regarding that. I just wanted people to relax and have a little faith. This issue will be fixed and all will be forgotten.

If the mistake was a coding error, then sure. It's not, myself and many others saw this stamina/magicka imbalance problem and highlighted the issue during beta.It was really obvious, as class skills did more damage than weapons, and here I am 7 months later complaining about the same thing.

One very simple solution would be to buff weapon skills, and reduce the amount of stamina spent to roll/sprint/block.

ozmorgudduth wrote: »

The biggest problem for my stamina sorc at the moment is people on perma block and casting abilities at the same time. They are the hardest to kill because of the physical dmg mitigation. I have to chew through their whole stamina pool with light attacks first to start killing them. Once they fix this broken mechanic I have no issues with stamina builds...

That's true. Start attacking them with weapons and you leave yourself open for attack. It's one way traffic.

I can understand why it takes a while to make major changes to stamina skills. If they make a change to a class skills, the collateral damage is smaller. It is only going to effect that class. Changing stamina builds will impact every class because everyone has access to those skills.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Exarch wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

It seems completely reasonable to me, from a software design perspective. This is not a 'fix', in the same terms of hey, there's a number wrong in the code and this ability isn't behaving correctly, what people want is essentially a total redesign of the way the ability system was originally designed; that comes with an enormous amount of risk, and requires a commensurate amount of planning.

Don't you think the games initial development stages would have been the best time to do that planning?

In a way you're making my point for me; they did in fact do that planning initially, and they built the system that they designed. If they now want to make fundamental changes to that design it's going to take an amount of planning on the order of what went into the initial development stages.

Pseudonym wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
Glad to read this statement. But please, hurry up.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

shiva7663 wrote: »

I would prefer not to have to wait until Update 17 for this.

Rushing is what got us into this mess in the first place. The game was rushed out and so as a result we had a plethora of bugs and balance issues, which are still plaguing the game at the moment.

Take as much time as you like guys, but get it right this time, please.

By not rushing I'm guessing that means years based on the current speed of progress.

You might think they're being incompetent, but take note that your complaints aren't original; they've been happening since the dawn of the MMO genre, so either all MMO developers are incompetent, or you simply don't understand the industry.

My guess is the latter.

Either way they'll sort these problems out sooner or later. Just be patient.

The thing is they have already shown us they can make large adjustments and quickly. The changes to VR leveling were a significant change and it was done within about 2 weeks of them saying they were looking to make changes.

By the time the second stage of the champ system comes out, it will be 16 weeks after the first stage. When you realise the second stage is just changing VP to XP and letting you level via XP, you can see how quickly this could/should have been done.

16 weeks to change what should take a day to change for even half decent developers is crazy.

It's inconsistencies like this, that leave us exasperated about how long they take to make reasonably small changes.

Guppet wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
Glad to read this statement. But please, hurry up.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

shiva7663 wrote: »

I would prefer not to have to wait until Update 17 for this.

Rushing is what got us into this mess in the first place. The game was rushed out and so as a result we had a plethora of bugs and balance issues, which are still plaguing the game at the moment.

Take as much time as you like guys, but get it right this time, please.

By not rushing I'm guessing that means years based on the current speed of progress.

You might think they're being incompetent, but take note that your complaints aren't original; they've been happening since the dawn of the MMO genre, so either all MMO developers are incompetent, or you simply don't understand the industry.

My guess is the latter.

Either way they'll sort these problems out sooner or later. Just be patient.

The thing is they have already shown us they can make large adjustments and quickly. The changes to VR leveling were a significant change and it was done within about 2 weeks of them saying they were looking to make changes.

By the time the second stage of the champ system comes out, it will be 16 weeks after the first stage. When you realise the second stage is just changing VP to XP and letting you level via XP, you can see how quickly this could/should have been done.

16 weeks to change what should take a day to change for even half decent developers is crazy.

It's inconsistencies like this, that leave us exasperated about how long they take to make reasonably small changes.

I assume then, that you're boiling this down to one or two people in the department, or perhaps even the entire department slacking off and not doing their jobs. I for one would put that conclusion last on my list of possible answers as to why they haven't addressed the problem yet.

Maybe they're collecting data in order to make an informed change, which they don't have to keep revisiting every other week, or perhaps they see this stamina issue a low priority in comparison with broken quests, bugged animations and exploits.

I don't know their reasons, but it isn't down to laziness or incompetence, I can pretty much guarantee that; not after this amount of time. This isn't some small software company; these guys are at the top of their field, it would be very naive to assume they're not doing their jobs, when there are literally hundreds of people (if not thousands) waiting to take their place.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Exarch wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

It seems completely reasonable to me, from a software design perspective. This is not a 'fix', in the same terms of hey, there's a number wrong in the code and this ability isn't behaving correctly, what people want is essentially a total redesign of the way the ability system was originally designed; that comes with an enormous amount of risk, and requires a commensurate amount of planning.

Actually, I think it's way simpler than you're making out .. people simply what Stamina to work like Magicka does so that Stamina-based skills are comparable to Magicka-based ones, no massive redesign required.

That is simple to say, but that statement isn't something that is implementable in the code. What does 'comparable' mean? Does it mean editing all skills that use Stamina and do damage to have a higher base damage? If so how much higher, is it the same amount for all skills that use Stamina, what about DoTs, AoEs, or channeled abilities? What about skills that use Stamina but don't do damage, should they be changed, and if so in what way?

Eewww aoes. Makes the lazy single target system seem like ninja archery.

I'm encouraged that they still hope to fix the issue.

However, the fixes for some things have taken faaaar too long, and are currently seriously affecting the state of the game. I think everyone can see that the slow and steady approach for some things has failed, and more aggressive action is now needed to fix:

--Stamina builds
--Heavy Armor

Other issues are more controversial, but one could also make the argument that ZOS has a poor track record of balance fixes. Remember when the game launched, and Bat Swarm, Talons, DKs in general and Bolt Escape were all OP? Remember how long those took to get fixed? Some would argue they never did-- Bat Swarm and Bolt Escape are still the banes of existence in Cyrodiil, and DKs are still a dime a dozen. How much has really changed in five months (!?!).

So my advice to ZOS is this: accept that the slow and steady approach has failed. Take more aggressive action. Even if this too fails, at least you can say you tried something that you thought had a hope of working. The fixes you have proposed for the problems right now are nowhere near enough, and everyone it seems except you can see this.