ZoS - Seriously, (when) are the fixes for Stamina builds coming?

jelliedsoup · September 2014

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

I would like official word on this, so I can determine whether I should persist in playing and dedicating time to this game. Personally I have no interest in magicka, spells based builds and have always used weapons in ES games since Morrowind.

I realise statements around slow and unrushed releases have been made. Beyond the single release so far to improve stamina based builds, magicka is still superior. I don't know if more stamina improvements are scheduled, or even in the pipeline and would really appreciate some word on this as opposed to forum speculation.

Stx · September 2014

If they ever plan on balancing them, the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild patch would be their best opportunity. Those are both "sneaky" factions and would could be stamina focused skill lines with survival skills, better damage skills, or whatever.

jelliedsoup · September 2014

Stx wrote: »

If they ever plan on balancing them, the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild patch would be their best opportunity. Those are both "sneaky" factions and would could be stamina focused skill lines with survival skills, better damage skills, or whatever.

IF being the operative word there. Getting by on intentions is as useful as a sales team promising something to keep people paying for a good which has yet to be delivered.

bosmern_ESO · September 2014

I don't understand how stamina builds are 'broken'. I kill so many people using my weapon abilities.

Just so everyone knows, If you are trying to go only stamina thats just a recipe for disaster. Unless you are doing a NaC build (Not a Class), you have to use magicka.

Xehmnus_Rayne · September 2014

Personally, I think a full on stamina build should be viable. Especially for those RP characters. Like making a guy that has no talent or ability whatsoever with magicka or something along those lines.

A guy wielding a two hander and, perhaps, have some fighters guild abilities (since they use stamina) mixed in should be able to compete with a magicka build or hybrid build. At least somewhat.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

Stx · September 2014

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand how stamina builds are 'broken'. I kill so many people using my weapon abilities.

Just so everyone knows, If you are trying to go only stamina thats just a recipe for disaster. Unless you are doing a NaC build (Not a Class), you have to use magicka.

You basically just outlined the major problem in this game. All class abilities use magicka. Hence why builds that stack magicka/spellpower are so much more effective than builds that stack stamina/weapon power.

Stamina builds(especially bow) can deal good damage in PvP, but they lack the sustain and survival that magicka builds have. The only stamina build players I see outlasting others are just very skilled.. (and they would probably be Gods using a magicka build).

However... the facts are that stamina builds lack the same PvE dps as magicka, they can't heal nearly as well as magicka builds, and they can't use nearly as many class abilities as magicka builds.

You can opt to stack more magicka with a stamina build, but then your damage will suffer, and you still won't be able to cast nearly as many spells as a pure magicka build, so its a lose/lose.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO · September 2014

Xehmnus_Rayne wrote: »

Personally, I think a full on stamina build should be viable. Especially for those RP characters. Like making a guy that has no talent or ability whatsoever with magicka or something along those lines.

A guy wielding a two hander and, perhaps, have some fighters guild abilities (since they use stamina) mixed in should be able to compete with a magicka build or hybrid build. At least somewhat.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

I actually think it was intended that you could do this. Here is a small excerpt from the ESO launch AMA on Reddit:

The link for the entire AMA is reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/20x73q/welcome_to_the_eso_ama/

I think that the design team really did want players to be able to run with just about any combination of build. I think they also did expect some builds to be better, they just didn't quite appreciate how much better some combinations would end up being.

Knootewoot · September 2014

I keep my stamina build, but it gets frustating sometimes in PvP. I fight like a maniac, unleashing my stamina skills. Then i get rooted/stunned and i dont have stamina enough to escape and run. Sometimes i only use magicka and light attacks and it is easy to escape and run. So i understand people use magicka builds.

I'll just stick with it and see.

Kego · September 2014

Stx wrote: »

You basically just outlined the major problem in this game. All class abilities use magicka. Hence why builds that stack magicka/spellpower are so much more effective than builds that stack stamina/weapon power.

Problem is not with the attributes of Stamina and Magicka it is with the Armor Trait of Impenetrable.
Class Skill for Melee Builds are build around Stamina doing lot's of crits but less base DMG, cause Melee Class Skills scales with Weapon Crit (Most Stamina Builds are around 50-60% Crit). With Magicka Builds you would do more Base DMG but your crit Chance with them is extremly low (around 0-10%).

In PvP is Impenetrable a real issue, cause you won't crit with Class Skills against Player that have 5-6 Armor Parts with Impen. Making these skills weaker than they are in PvE.

Stamina builds(especially bow) can deal good damage in PvP, but they lack the sustain and survival that magicka builds have. The only stamina build players I see outlasting others are just very skilled.. (and they would probably be Gods using a magicka build).

This problem is mostly a Nightblade one. Templar, DKs and Sorcs have enough Survival Skills that works in Stamina Build really well. Nightblades have to rely on Resto Staffs if they want a decent survival and therefor needs Magicka.

On the other Hand, the Nightblade class is the only, that can be a true Assassin with Dual Weapons and as well a full Healer with a Resto Staff in 2nd Hand.

However... the facts are that stamina builds lack the same PvE dps as magicka, they can't heal nearly as well as magicka builds, and they can't use nearly as many class abilities as magicka builds.

Stamina Builds only lack in PvE DPS during Trails, cause they don't have the same options for Stamina Management as Magicka Builds have. Yes they can't heal and they don't use as much class skills, but Magicka DPS will mostly not heal as well cause Build 1 is around Single Target DPS and Build 2 around AOE DPS.

You can opt to stack more magicka with a stamina build, but then your damage will suffer, and you still won't be able to cast nearly as many spells as a pure magicka build, so its a lose/lose.

Why? If you want to go Stamina Build, than I suppose you want at least 2-3 Skills form your Weapon slot and only Buffs and Support Skills from your class.

Artis · September 2014

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand how stamina builds are 'broken'. I kill so many people using my weapon abilities.

Just so everyone knows, If you are trying to go only stamina thats just a recipe for disaster. Unless you are doing a NaC build (Not a Class), you have to use magicka.

You are saying it as if that's how it should be. I want to play MY CLASS in stamina build. I don't see how Veiled Strike is not a stamina skill, for example.
I wouldn't mind if they deleted all the classes if they can't balance them. If it's a TES game - it wouldn't be an issue. In this case I wouldn't feel forced to played certain builds in PvP. When I picked a NB I was misguided by a description of the class. Now when I'm VR12, I see that the class is not balanced, neither it can "rely on blades"(c). However, leveling a new character, doing all the quests again is not an option. That would mean more than 3 weeks of /played time were nothing?? Leveling an alt through grinding is also not an option for the same reason... I'd lose all the achievements there unless I do all the quests again.

So what can I do except for whining on forums to change system so that I can use my class skills and deal physical damage?
Going with 2-3 weapon skills... You run out of stamina eventually. And your damage will still be lower than damage of mages.

Crowzer · September 2014

What fixies do you want ?

jelliedsoup · September 2014

Crowzer wrote: »

What fixies do you want ?

The fixies I want are for a stamina alone build to be viable. Anyone using just stamina skills will be destroyed in PvP. Snipe morphs are the one saving grace here, melee combat is just pointless for a stam build.

I don't see any reason apart from the limitation designed by zos why stam builds must be weaker than magicka builds. For those who play with weapons this is hugely limiting in PvP, if magicka were weaker than stam them the same principle would apply.

Whoever designed this game had a brain fart when considering the balance between stam and magicka, or perhaps their brief wasn't to balance them. Which of course is worse than poor implementation.

david.haypreub18_ESO · September 2014

Crowzer wrote: »

What fixies do you want ?

One that I've been asking for since beta is to make some class skills (like the Templar's Biting Jabs, for example) be stamina based. There's no reason why some class skills can't be stamina based.

Weapon ultimates is another.

More ways of regenerating stamina would help, as would reducing the costs of stamina skills and/or raising their damage.

There would still be the problem of the fact that stamina is also used for blocking/dodging/CC breaking/sprinting, but these would be a start.

Aeratus · September 2014

The problem with stamina builds isn't with dps. It's just that magicka users can heal better.

So the only solution in my opinion is to nerf healing in pvp.

Also, nerf the shield spells in pvp. Shield spells synergize too well with magicka builds.

Resueht · September 2014

I have a stamina build as a Sorc that works pretty well. I use 2H skills for DPS and Sorc skills for either buffs (Bound Armor, Crit Surge, etc.) or CC. I don't need a great magica pool since I don't really care about dmg from my CC skills, just enough to cast them when I need it.

I think the argument for pure stamina builds should be something a little different. There should be more opportunities to reduce your roll/block/CC-break cost since it is currently a percentage of your pool and not a hard cost. This is the most crippling thing for stam imo. I should be able to roll out of attacks better; that's where my survivability should come from, not from healing.

I think this change would be far more inline with what is already in place and would serve as a step in the right direction. Stamina shouldn't just be a pool for skills, it's not green magica; it should be used for avoiding damage instead of recovering from damage taken.

ZOS_GinaBruno · September 2014

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

Gythral · September 2014

Between hell freezing over and never & they'll post any news on Reddit years before they post it here!

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Crowzer wrote: »

What fixies do you want ?

There would still be the problem of the fact that stamina is also used for blocking/dodging/CC breaking/sprinting, but these would be a start.

This is actually NOT a problem.

People forget or simply don't care Magicka builds need to use Magicka for things OTHER than DPS just a Stamina builds need Stamina for things OTHER than just DPS.

See the REASON Magicka builds don't realize that is Magicka builds DONT run out of Magicka(unless your playing wrong).

A Magicka builds survivability relies solely on Magicka with slight uses for Stamina.

A Stamina build get much much much more out of Magicka (not necessarily TOP DPS) than a Magicka build gets out of Stamina.

When Booth builds are out of their respective resource Magicka builds have nothing to fall back on except a little bit a Stamina for some block/dodges.

Stamina builds get their increases Light/Heavy Attacks as well as Healing or CC from Magicka.

Problem is Magicka builds don't run out of Magicka.

Tendeep · September 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

It is the ZOS carrot on a stick - they can not be honest, because if they do, that number is going to be so unacceptable, we all will go ape *** and rage cancel subs ( if we have not already ;-) )

nerevarine1138 · September 2014

Tendeep wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

It is the ZOS carrot on a stick - they can not be honest, because if they do, that number is going to be so unacceptable, we all will go ape *** and rage cancel subs ( if we have not already ;-) )

You know that occasionally developers don't actually know when they'll be able to implement changes, right?

TheBull · September 2014

Tendeep wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

It is the ZOS carrot on a stick - they can not be honest, because if they do, that number is going to be so unacceptable, we all will go ape *** and rage cancel subs ( if we have not already ;-) )

I'm starting to feel the same.. They will announce these things next, with no eta. 5 months later we will be asking for an update. Just like the NB cloak fixes and WW buffs.

Tendeep · September 2014

TheBull wrote: »

Tendeep wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

It is the ZOS carrot on a stick - they can not be honest, because if they do, that number is going to be so unacceptable, we all will go ape *** and rage cancel subs ( if we have not already ;-) )

I'm starting to feel the same.. They will announce these things next, with no eta. 5 months later we will be asking for an update. Just like the NB cloak fixes and WW buffs.

Exactly, at some point they have to realize "Wow, we just do not have the man power to code all that needs to be done here..." because right now, I view all of these delays and ignored issues as "meh... we will get to it when we get to it."

Or at least prioritize, I feel as if minor cosmetic changes are made to the game, but not the major issues that have plagued this game since release.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · September 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

Thank you Gina, that would be Awesome.

Zheg · September 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

Gina, I think you're terrific. But I'm pretty disappointed that the devs have wasted so much time worrying about making anything other than teeny-tiny (sometimes useless) changes to address the problem. While somewhat recent changes have improved viability of stamina builds, they're still not in the same league as magicka builds. The baseline should be roughly equal effort for roughly equal results, and personally I feel I need to work twice as hard with a stamina build to see half the results I could have reaped if I were running magicka builds. If anything, it should be the reverse. Stamina builds use up their defensive pool in order to dps, and many stamina builds require you to be in melee range, yet another risk (especially regarding poorly designed trial mechanics...). High risk should equal high reward, not high frustration. I'm deeply concerned that spellcrafting is only going to drive the final nail into the coffin, and if that comes out before the issue is addressed, the devs need to rethink their priorities imo.

/soapboxrant.

I hope the devs finally realize that they need to address the imbalance head-on and stop wasting time. More builds = more variety, and this turns into players wanting to level alts and pvp/dungeon-run for even more sets, which ultimately means they'll play longer.

Rhakon · September 2014

A third resource for sprint,sneak,block and dodgeroll would be a good start.

ExiledKhallisi · September 2014

What if they made blocking/dodging/Sprinting use whichever stat was higher.... Magicka or Stamina.

This would balance a lot of things.

regardless of that idea lol... It seems to me alot of people arent adressing the other issues with stamina:

-Weapon skills have no ultimates. The only stamina based ultimate in game is Dawnbreaker.
-Some Weapon skills cost an insane amount of stamina.
-Medium armor is weak.
-It's to easy for ANY build to softcap/overcap armor using skills like immovable which IMO should only be usable if you have over 5 pieces of heavy on. This makes weapon damage weak against most players (pvp)

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

Rhakon wrote: »

A third resource for sprint,sneak,block and dodgeroll would be a good start.

I HATE hearing this as a solution SOOOOOOO much.

OK wish granted its on a separate bar finally.

Your abilities are STILL anti spam and when you do spam them you will RUN OUT OF STAMINA.

So you did absolutely NOTHING to fix the problem.

Magicka users spam their spells and guess what...they Heavy Attack with Restro Staff and get back 10% Magicka then they can cast dark exchange or equilibrium and GET BACK Magicka and continue spamming.

Whats the downside to Magicka users doing this NONE its actually stupid for them NOT to.

You could give these same tools to Stamina users but then you still have another problem.

There a correct Magicka build and if your not using it your gimping yourself. If your NOT holding onto a Restro Staff you at least better have Equilibrium slotted.

If theres MUST HAVE then its because its OPed. Its not really a choice anymore.

Lets give 2handers 10% Stamina with every Heavy Attack...whats that do for bows and dual wield and Sword and Shield GIMPS THEM.

capcody · September 2014

would be good if there was a stam regain mundus stone. as for a class wearing medium armour theirs not really any benefits for dodge block reduction well there is a small % but it has to be a higher %.that should even out some issues with stam.

jelliedsoup · September 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

Thanks for your response. I'm a little disappointed that it's not more of a priority than it appears to be. Perhaps those who want stamina builds to be viable are in more of a minority than I thought.

Soloeus · September 2014

My hope is that Zenimax can correct the situation with buffs to every class, not nerfs.

1. Every passive ability for each Class Line should work across the board with everything; at minimum everything within its own skill line. Nothing is more unfun or weak than a passive that only impacts 2 skills or 3 skills.

2. Stamina Flood - a copy of Magicka Flood, should be added to one set of Gear that serves a warriors alternative to the Warlock Set.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · September 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

Stamina Flood - a copy of Magicka Flood, should be added to one set of Gear that serves a warriors alternative to the Warlock Set.

That sounds awesome, plus we need a Mundus Stone that gives Stamina recovery (the opposite to the Magicka recovery one) and we need more Craftable Item sets that give Stamina recovery as well, Since there is only two at this time, Nights Silence and Oblivion's Foe are the only two that have Stamina recovery. Magicka has like 5: Seducer, Magnus Gift, Kagrenac's Hope, Eyes of Mara and they share Oblivion's Foe with Stamina.