Chillrend crash and rollback not a coincidence - Beyond time to do something, Zeni

Malveria · September 2014

I do not have it I me to apologise to those that I will offend with this thread, because the frustration I, and my guild and groups, feel in response to the underhanded tactics being used by Daggerfall Covenant players has passed beyond polite niceties. Not only are we constantly being besieged by troll campers (with a camp placement that far benefits DC over EP), and people using alts on the Dominion to give the other side an advantage (such as positioning themselves to allow for Dragon Leap into an inner keep), but we are still dealing with DC members crashing the server whenever they cannot handle what they are confronted with.

Today, Chillrend experienced an amazing surge of lag that affected people nowhere near combat. This was not zerg proximity lag (which is also beyond ridiculous for a ‘megaserver’ game), it was server-wide lag that then concluded in a server crash.

This lag and crash came after DC lost all but one Emperor keep (Ash), both Dominion scrolls (Mnem and Altadoon) and their offensive scroll (Ni-Mohk). When the server returned, Ni-Mohk had been returned to the temple, whereas prior to the crash it had been sitting happily in Alessia.

This is disgusting.

No, this is not a coincidence. The server does not crash when AD or EP lose keeps, or even when they lose everything, or even when they lose their scrolls. The server did not crash during a massive three way battle for Ash (which had gone on for over an hour and was not occurring during that time) nor during numerous other three-way battles that I have, personally, been involved in.

The server crashed when AD nearly took Ash.

I AM WELL AWARE that not all DC are doing this. But the fact remains that it is happening with overwhelming commonality when the Daggerfall faction is losing, or stands to lose, something phenomenal.

It is beyond time that this be addressed, and the guilty parties be banned from this game. This is not an exploit. This is not a bug. This is a blatant and deliberate interruption of service for their own gain. I don’t care why it is being done. I don’t care who is doing it. I honestly don’t even care how. The fact that they are doing, with a total disregard for any other paying player is only slightly less deplorable than the fact that they are allowed to get away with it.

Moreover, people are complaining about tactics that DC members also using. Blood porting? Existed to counter DC forces that were already doing it. But rather than wipe at a resource, they wipe at keeps, trap the defending force inside a flagged keep and combat bugs, and res at another keep, taking that keep before the game mechanics actually allow the defending force to respond. But it's only when it impacts on THEM, does it get complained about.

DC members have repeatedly, and unrepentantly, utilised the game mechanics to get what they want, and now they are using the game system to crash the server.

And the fact that this forum will protect our ability to get their names out by not ‘naming and shaming’ but ZeniMax won’t actually DO anything about this speaks volumes for the professional conduct of a company that is expecting money in return for this service.

Nerfing Healing Springs to combat people who are breaking your game is not the way to go. Zeni came down hard on gold spammers. Come down hard on this. There are people playing the game per your rules, and there are people who are breaking it to suit their own.

People want to complain about the ‘spirit of PVP’ being violated using ‘blood porting’, they want to complain about the spirit of PVP being violated via zerging (ignoring that this is, in fact, an AVA) game, or through AoE impulse using groups, but we are not addressing the fact that people are crashing the server to get what they want.

They are prohibiting people from getting a direct reward for the effort they put in to it.

And for any DC that want to defend your faction, find me something that counters the overwhelming experience of these crashes happening, and the monumental lag occurring, when DC is about to lose something big. Or is about to lose everything.
If you don’t think your faction is guilty in this, then start holding your fellow faction members accountable.

As for Zenimax? Watch your servers. Find out what's going on. Let US find out who is doing this. And let US tell one another about it.

Tldnr: Step. Up. Your. Game.

IxSTALKERxI · September 2014

Their tactics are so sad. Plz Zeni don't let them lag out your server. It ruins the game for us all.

Poxheart · September 2014

It's tinfoil hat time in Cyrodiil!

jaebdub · September 2014

How many times does it have to happen before its not a conspiracy?

xaraan · September 2014

I'm sure tons of players have played more PvP than me, but I've played my fair share (going back to PTS and beta even) and this lag is not the same thing as just a lot of players fighting on screen. I've encountered this several times as well, only in these circumstances - twice before during the week that I was around, after DC lost everything the server started lagging as if they were attempting to crash it (Once they succeeded, but it didn't roll back far enough to change anything). Combine that with a friend reporting to me that the DC emp told them 'everything was under control' after they had lost everything but right before the crash certainly makes me think my suspicions are correct.

I'm sure it's easy enough for anyone to dismiss this stuff and say it sounds crazy, but at the very least some GMs/devs should have their eyes open. There is usually only one packed campaign and if a server keeps crashing, they should be on top of why whether it's player caused or equipment caused. It's frustrating to beat a giant zerg back with a much smaller force and then have all your progress taken away no matter the cause - it needs to be fixed. But if you have players exploiting problems like that and ruining the experience for others, then yeah, drop the hammer.

Rylana · September 2014

The OP is absolutely spot on in the assessment.

ZOS, wake up.

VoteHaelga · September 2014

I'm becoming more and more disheartened with the state of PVP at the moment. I love the PVP in this game, but the behavior of people who wish to damage the experience of it for other people, to suit their own selfish desires, is quite frankly UNACCEPTABLE. ZOS, something needs to be done SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.

GRxKnight · September 2014

Servers were fine before EG and NM showed up. NM apparently only runs with sub 20 per night and EG has 100+ members on at a time it seems. I wonder which guild is responsible for this.

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO · September 2014

The timing was even better than just Ash getting attacked, but it was very shortly after AD had begun pushing through the outer-wall. A good portion of my guild was able to push through, then right as we were setting up oils, bam. Rollback.

About an hour earlier, there was a three-faction battle going on outside Ash, with each faction having a pretty sizable zerg out and about. There was lag sure, but no crashing or rollback. Yet this two-faction battle happened to cause a server crash just in time to prevent AD from flooding into Ash?

TheBull · September 2014

For the record Ash was defended. For the record we say the same thing when the server crashes and EP and AD run through unmanned breeches.

That being said, when 2 50+ man groups come together with barriers, Fiery Ring and healing springs spam, the server will crash.

These large groups are coming together in these spam scenarios more often than in the past aswell.

jaebdub · September 2014

TheBull wrote: »

For the record Ash was defended. For the record we say the same thing when the server crashes and EP and AD run through unmanned breeches.

That being said, when 2 50+ man groups come together with barriers, Fiery Ring and healing springs spam, the server will crash.

These large groups are coming together in these spam scenarios more often than in the past aswell.

Please tell me when the server has crashed for you?

At the moment of the crash, there was no large battle of 50+ on both sides. There may have been 10 DC outside in the courtyard (I know this because I was there...), but the majority of DC were inside the Keep doing you know what.

Xsorus · September 2014

A. Bloodporting is done by all sides..Its called crappy respawn mechanics thanks to Forward Camps

B. Zerg Balls cause lag, I've told this to you people a 1000 times... You get enough people stacking on one spot spamming enough abilities, You get bloody lag...sometimes just in the general area, but if a large enough group does it, you'll get it everywhere and sometimes it'll flat out crash the server..You want to fix that problem....Bloody get rid of Zerg Balling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2BqTrX8zVk&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

jaebdub · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Bloodporting is done by all sides..Its called crappy respawn mechanics thanks to Forward Camps

B. Zerg Balls cause lag, I've told this to you people a 1000 times... You get enough people stacking on one spot spamming enough abilities, You get bloody lag...sometimes just in the general area, but if a large enough group does it, you'll get it everywhere and sometimes it'll flat out crash the server..You want to fix that problem....Bloody get rid of Zerg Balling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2BqTrX8zVk&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

You are making such a broad statement over something you obviously weren't there for. Please post something of relevance.

EDIT: That video perfectly illustrates the way these server crashes happen. Notice how it looks like they aren't trying to kill anybody, but instead are standing in one spot with perpetual healing. THIS is the cause. Healing Springs.

The standard zerg ball is something most would describe with large coordinated movement. What you are seeing in the video is the exact way server crashes happen. ONE group standing in ONE spot healing.

Xsorus · September 2014

jaebdub wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Bloodporting is done by all sides..Its called crappy respawn mechanics thanks to Forward Camps

B. Zerg Balls cause lag, I've told this to you people a 1000 times... You get enough people stacking on one spot spamming enough abilities, You get bloody lag...sometimes just in the general area, but if a large enough group does it, you'll get it everywhere and sometimes it'll flat out crash the server..You want to fix that problem....Bloody get rid of Zerg Balling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2BqTrX8zVk&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

You are making such a broad statement over something you obviously weren't there for. Please post something of relevance.

EDIT: That video perfectly illustrates the way these server crashes happen. Notice how it looks like they aren't trying to kill anybody, but instead are standing in one spot with perpetual healing. THIS is the cause. Healing Springs.

The standard zerg ball is something most would describe with large coordinated movement. What you are seeing in the video is the exact way server crashes happen. ONE group standing in ONE spot healing.

No... movement has nothing to do with a Zerg Ball.

a Zerg Ball is what it says it is.... a Zerg stacked into a giant ball...Doesn't matter if its moving or not... You get enough people stacking like that, you cause lag 100% of the time. I've seen your guild do it as well..Granted you don't cause nearly the lag EG does...But you do cause lag when ya do that crap... I know exactly when anyone of the guilds like yours is in the area just based off the lag you do cause.

Cody · September 2014

well... that's another campaign ruined!!!

lets see:
thornblade is ruined by AD nightcappers

Hedarous is ruined by ridiculous AD population

Bow of shadows just switches the alliance every 2 weeks or so

chillrend is..... this.

Blackwater blade has keep guards that can kill you in one shot

the PvP is doing well I think.

jaebdub · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

jaebdub wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Bloodporting is done by all sides..Its called crappy respawn mechanics thanks to Forward Camps

B. Zerg Balls cause lag, I've told this to you people a 1000 times... You get enough people stacking on one spot spamming enough abilities, You get bloody lag...sometimes just in the general area, but if a large enough group does it, you'll get it everywhere and sometimes it'll flat out crash the server..You want to fix that problem....Bloody get rid of Zerg Balling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2BqTrX8zVk&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

You are making such a broad statement over something you obviously weren't there for. Please post something of relevance.

EDIT: That video perfectly illustrates the way these server crashes happen. Notice how it looks like they aren't trying to kill anybody, but instead are standing in one spot with perpetual healing. THIS is the cause. Healing Springs.

The standard zerg ball is something most would describe with large coordinated movement. What you are seeing in the video is the exact way server crashes happen. ONE group standing in ONE spot healing.

No... movement has nothing to do with a Zerg Ball.

a Zerg Ball is what it says it is.... a Zerg stacked into a giant ball...Doesn't matter if its moving or not... You get enough people stacking like that, you cause lag 100% of the time. I've seen your guild do it as well..Granted you don't cause nearly the lag EG does...But you do cause lag when ya do that crap... I know exactly when anyone of the guilds like yours is in the area just based off the lag you do cause.

Any time a crash has happened is because of a lack of movement. Too many ground effects in a single area.

You can also make a claim that my guild causes lag, but the 8-16 (generally maxing out at 12) of us I think play little part to it. But point blame elsewhere if you choose. I'm not talking about Zerg Balls in this thread. I'm talking about deliberate crashing of the server. The video you posted is another example of deliberately crashing the server.

Let me put this out there. You will never see my group standing on a flag trying to out heal incoming siege damage. Not only do we not have the people, we don't have the heals for that. Instead we will focus on moving ourselves to siege because they DO counter us.

Also, what is your definition of a zerg? A group of players?

Malveria · September 2014

Zerg lag is irrelevant. We're saying there were no zergs fighting one another at the time of the crash. Moreover, when there WAS a three way zerg fight, there was no server wide lag.

A single group of 26, each spamming healing springs, is not sufficient to lag the server. It is a large, coordinated group doing it. A bunch of healing springs on a breach won't do it. Healing springs in a three way fight won't do it. It's a coordinated, consolidated act.

The server was crashed deliberately.

IKilled007 · September 2014

It should be impossible for players to crash the game server. I am way more annoyed by the fact that players have the ability to crash the game due to horrific Zenimax coding and hardware than I am that players conspire to crash the game. This cowardly tactic can only work because of Zenimax's ineptitude. Banning the players who take advantage of that ineptitude is not the solution: fixing the ineptitude is.

Lionxoft · September 2014

I don't think I could ignore my customers and clients like ZOS does on an everyday basis. Pretty sure their mindset is misguided at this point. Maybe pride is blinding them to the point they think their game is too good to falter.

I remember a certain scene in Star Wars Episode III where a certain Sith thought he was too powerful or great for failure... He ended up with his limbs cut off and left to burn.

Just some symbolism of pride.

IKilled007 · September 2014

Lionxoft wrote: »

I don't think I could ignore my customers and clients like ZOS does on an everyday basis. Pretty sure their mindset is misguided at this point. Maybe pride is blinding them to the point they think their game is too good to falter.

I remember a certain scene in Star Wars Episode III where a certain Sith thought he was too powerful or great for failure... He ended up with his limbs cut off and left to burn.

Just some symbolism of pride.

Sure, but later on he choked people to death across viewing screens with his mind while talking to their replacements.

Columba · September 2014

hahahahaah. tinfoil hat time. I was there. we were defending like crazy. we did not intentionally crash the server. we don't even know how. lol.

Rylana · September 2014

Columba wrote: »

hahahahaah. tinfoil hat time. I was there. we were defending like crazy. we did not intentionally crash the server. we don't even know how. lol.

shhhh

I was there as well, inside the keep, on the walls, killing you bads.

The three way battle in and around the mine an hour before was more than five times as large and did not crash the server.

Columba · September 2014

GRxKnight wrote: »

Servers were fine before EG and NM showed up. NM apparently only runs with sub 20 per night and EG has 100+ members on at a time it seems. I wonder which guild is responsible for this.

I WAS WITH EG. NOBODY, I REPEAT NOBODY CALLED FOR HEALING SPRINGS OR TO CRASH THE SERVER. GOD, GROW UP.

Lionxoft · September 2014

IKilled007 wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

I don't think I could ignore my customers and clients like ZOS does on an everyday basis. Pretty sure their mindset is misguided at this point. Maybe pride is blinding them to the point they think their game is too good to falter.

I remember a certain scene in Star Wars Episode III where a certain Sith thought he was too powerful or great for failure... He ended up with his limbs cut off and left to burn.

Just some symbolism of pride.

Sure, but later on he choked people to death across viewing screens with his mind while talking to their replacements.

What was left of him choked the life (Wallets) out of the people stupid enough to follow him... The symbolism continues!

Rylana · September 2014

Columba wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Servers were fine before EG and NM showed up. NM apparently only runs with sub 20 per night and EG has 100+ members on at a time it seems. I wonder which guild is responsible for this.

I WAS WITH EG. NOBODY, I REPEAT NOBODY CALLED FOR HEALING SPRINGS OR TO CRASH THE SERVER. GOD, GROW UP.

Xsorus · September 2014

jaebdub wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

jaebdub wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

A. Bloodporting is done by all sides..Its called crappy respawn mechanics thanks to Forward Camps

B. Zerg Balls cause lag, I've told this to you people a 1000 times... You get enough people stacking on one spot spamming enough abilities, You get bloody lag...sometimes just in the general area, but if a large enough group does it, you'll get it everywhere and sometimes it'll flat out crash the server..You want to fix that problem....Bloody get rid of Zerg Balling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2BqTrX8zVk&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

You are making such a broad statement over something you obviously weren't there for. Please post something of relevance.

EDIT: That video perfectly illustrates the way these server crashes happen. Notice how it looks like they aren't trying to kill anybody, but instead are standing in one spot with perpetual healing. THIS is the cause. Healing Springs.

The standard zerg ball is something most would describe with large coordinated movement. What you are seeing in the video is the exact way server crashes happen. ONE group standing in ONE spot healing.

No... movement has nothing to do with a Zerg Ball.

a Zerg Ball is what it says it is.... a Zerg stacked into a giant ball...Doesn't matter if its moving or not... You get enough people stacking like that, you cause lag 100% of the time. I've seen your guild do it as well..Granted you don't cause nearly the lag EG does...But you do cause lag when ya do that crap... I know exactly when anyone of the guilds like yours is in the area just based off the lag you do cause.

Any time a crash has happened is because of a lack of movement. Too many ground effects in a single area.

You can also make a claim that my guild causes lag, but the 8-16 (generally maxing out at 12) of us I think play little part to it. But point blame elsewhere if you choose. I'm not talking about Zerg Balls in this thread. I'm talking about deliberate crashing of the server. The video you posted is another example of deliberately crashing the server.

Let me put this out there. You will never see my group standing on a flag trying to out heal incoming siege damage. Not only do we not have the people, we don't have the heals for that. Instead we will focus on moving ourselves to siege because they DO counter us.

Also, what is your definition of a zerg? A group of players?

You might not think you're causing lag, but trust me..you're causing lag.. Also the video I posted wasn't deliberately crashing the server..That was entirely just a zerg ball wanting to zerg ball. I've also seen your group standing on plenty of flags spamming impulse and heals....You might move when you're on the walls, But i've seen your group camping flags all the same. I don't blame you for doing it, I don't fault you for doing it...But you have done it.

As for what i consider a zerg, Depends on the setting.. If you're 4v1ing me for example, You're zerging me.. That's generally how it was accepted in DAOC when dealing with greater numbers. However since we're talking on a group scale..I generally consider anything past 8 people to be a zerg..That's just the DAOC player in me though. In this game since the Trials are 12 people..i won't consider 12 people to be a terrible zerg by a lot.. and it wouldn't annoy me for example fighting an 8 vs 12. When ya start getting past that though, you're pretty much zerging by my ESO standards.

Xsorus · September 2014

Rylana wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

hahahahaah. tinfoil hat time. I was there. we were defending like crazy. we did not intentionally crash the server. we don't even know how. lol.

shhhh

I was there as well, inside the keep, on the walls, killing you bads.

The three way battle in and around the mine an hour before was more than five times as large and did not crash the server.

Was there a giant zerg ball at the mine?

Because if not..that is why it didn't crash the server.

Rylana · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

hahahahaah. tinfoil hat time. I was there. we were defending like crazy. we did not intentionally crash the server. we don't even know how. lol.

shhhh

I was there as well, inside the keep, on the walls, killing you bads.

The three way battle in and around the mine an hour before was more than five times as large and did not crash the server.

Was there a giant zerg ball at the mine?

Because if not..that is why it didn't crash the server.

There were two, and a bunch of reds in between. My best estimate was 2 full raids of AD, 3 of DC, and about a raid to raid and a half of EP, not including stealthers.

So about 150-200 players in and around the mine.

Xsorus · September 2014

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

hahahahaah. tinfoil hat time. I was there. we were defending like crazy. we did not intentionally crash the server. we don't even know how. lol.

shhhh

I was there as well, inside the keep, on the walls, killing you bads.

The three way battle in and around the mine an hour before was more than five times as large and did not crash the server.

Was there a giant zerg ball at the mine?

Because if not..that is why it didn't crash the server.

There were two, and a bunch of reds in between. My best estimate was 2 full raids of AD, 3 of DC, and about a raid to raid and a half of EP, not including stealthers.

So about 150-200 players in and around the mine.

Zerg Balls..Not zergs...Zerg Balls.

As in whats in my video for example..Just having zergs around casting at each other won't cause lag...You can see that every day....Second people start stacking though and casting, that's when you will get it.

Ignore if you're talking about zerg balls... However some people can't distinguish between the two so I have to be clear on it.

Rylana · September 2014

Almost every guild on this campaign stacks and casts so I figured that was implied.

I was running with a four man vice team, but the stacks were out in force, it was two of the biggest zergs ive ever seen collide, and AD was the one in the middle, EP toward the farm, DC toward the wall/front door field area. it was disgusting lag, 10 second ability delays and the like.

but the server never crashed

Columba · September 2014

Rylana wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Servers were fine before EG and NM showed up. NM apparently only runs with sub 20 per night and EG has 100+ members on at a time it seems. I wonder which guild is responsible for this.

I WAS WITH EG. NOBODY, I REPEAT NOBODY CALLED FOR HEALING SPRINGS OR TO CRASH THE SERVER. GOD, GROW UP.

maximum inanity.