thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

[

Pseudonym wrote: »

I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.

Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".

Yes you are missing something, learn more before commenting next time and you will get it

This is the point where you elaborate and educate me. I'm here to learn.

Ask yourself, "why is punishment important?"

I just asked myself why punishment is important. I replied to myself saying that punishment is important, because it teaches people right and wrong; without punishment we would have anarchy.

I assume you're going somewhere with this? Why do we need punishment for enchants? Seems to me that enchants are upgrades, and you shouldn't be punished for using them.

The term punishment when used in Gaming means taking a risk and not getting a reward.

I've played along until now, but it's become tedious. Am I right in saying that you want people to be punished for choosing to use impenetrable?

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Stacking Impenetrable sacrifices the ability to use non-crafted gear sets. This is your trade off, and it is significant enough that the highest level players are debating how much Impenetrable we wear.

yeah true
which high level player other than assassins don't run 5 seducer?

Most of Alacrity does not run Seducer. I would say close to half of us wear 5 Spectre's Eye, others wear Crit-heavy sets like 3pc Aether, 3pc Willow's, etc. I would say probably only our Templars and maybe 1 or 2 of our Sorcs run Seducer.

I can't speak for other groups though.

Tripwyr wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Stacking Impenetrable sacrifices the ability to use non-crafted gear sets. This is your trade off, and it is significant enough that the highest level players are debating how much Impenetrable we wear.

yeah true
which high level player other than assassins don't run 5 seducer?

Most of Alacrity does not run Seducer. I would say close to half of us wear 5 Spectre's Eye, others wear Crit-heavy sets like 3pc Aether, 3pc Willow's, etc. I would say probably only our Templars and maybe 1 or 2 of our Sorcs run Seducer.

I can't speak for other groups though.

None of those sets compare to Seducers.
For example:
Spectre's Eye is the equivalent to 10% damage reduction on average potentially worse and better based on the attacks you avoid. Someone wearing Seducers vs Spectre's Eye has their damage reduced by 10% thus potentially 10% of their Magicka used is wasted however Seducer reduces that 10% wasted to 2% due to the 8% reduction on spells. Edit: The armor and max Health from Spectre's Eye is nice but 24 Magicka recovery will give you more then double the hit points in return from heals over a peroid of just 20 seconds.
Aether and Willows is a no-brainer, it's completely countered by Impenetrable Seducer.

Tamanous wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

The only thing crit has going for it right now is farming garbage players and low levels for bonus ultimate and AP.

Or the primary tool for melee sorcs to self heal. Entire builds washed away because ZoS cannot manage their crazy crit and impen scaling.

I'm a sorc too and SADLY i'll have to agree with it. Otherwise critical surge will be nerfed into oblivion soon and i dont want that.

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

[

Pseudonym wrote: »

I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.

Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".

Yes you are missing something, learn more before commenting next time and you will get it

This is the point where you elaborate and educate me. I'm here to learn.

Ask yourself, "why is punishment important?"

I just asked myself why punishment is important. I replied to myself saying that punishment is important, because it teaches people right and wrong; without punishment we would have anarchy.

I assume you're going somewhere with this? Why do we need punishment for enchants? Seems to me that enchants are upgrades, and you shouldn't be punished for using them.

The term punishment when used in Gaming means taking a risk and not getting a reward.

I've played along until now, but it's become tedious. Am I right in saying that you want people to be punished for choosing to use impenetrable?

Yes, by buffing the other traits. Hence why I said "People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?"

They have different uses; the game isn't one dimentional. They sacrifice Magicka or Stamina, which for someone like me, who Snipes and attacks from range, is more important than impenetrable (because I don't plan on getting hit in the first place).

Then there are other non-crafted sets, which believe it or not, some people do use; and the PvE aspect of the game, where impenetrable isn't even a consideration.

Not everyone uses impenetrable. That alone should be evidence enough that it isn't the be all and end all.

100 Magicka, Stamina or Health isn't a sacrifice.

I'd gladly take that over a useless stat.

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

[

Pseudonym wrote: »

I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.

Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".

Yes you are missing something, learn more before commenting next time and you will get it

This is the point where you elaborate and educate me. I'm here to learn.

Ask yourself, "why is punishment important?"

I just asked myself why punishment is important. I replied to myself saying that punishment is important, because it teaches people right and wrong; without punishment we would have anarchy.

I assume you're going somewhere with this? Why do we need punishment for enchants? Seems to me that enchants are upgrades, and you shouldn't be punished for using them.

The term punishment when used in Gaming means taking a risk and not getting a reward.

I've played along until now, but it's become tedious. Am I right in saying that you want people to be punished for choosing to use impenetrable?

Yes, by buffing the other traits. Hence why I said "People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?"

They have different uses; the game isn't one dimentional. They sacrifice Magicka or Stamina, which for someone like me, who Snipes and attacks from range, is more important than impenetrable (because I don't plan on getting hit in the first place).

Then there are other non-crafted sets, which believe it or not, some people do use; and the PvE aspect of the game, where impenetrable isn't even a consideration.

Not everyone uses impenetrable. That alone should be evidence enough that it isn't the be all and end all.

100 Magicka, Stamina or Health isn't a sacrifice.

I'd gladly take that over a useless stat.

Useless stat for your useless build, indeed

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Stacking Impenetrable sacrifices the ability to use non-crafted gear sets. This is your trade off, and it is significant enough that the highest level players are debating how much Impenetrable we wear.

yeah true
which high level player other than assassins don't run 5 seducer?

Most of Alacrity does not run Seducer. I would say close to half of us wear 5 Spectre's Eye, others wear Crit-heavy sets like 3pc Aether, 3pc Willow's, etc. I would say probably only our Templars and maybe 1 or 2 of our Sorcs run Seducer.

I can't speak for other groups though.

None of those sets compare to Seducers.
For example:
Spectre's Eye is the equivalent to 10% damage reduction on average potentially worse and better based on the attacks you avoid. Someone wearing Seducers vs Spectre's Eye has their damage reduced by 10% thus potentially 10% of their Magicka used is wasted however Seducer reduces that 10% wasted to 2% due to the 8% reduction on spells. Edit: The armor and max Health from Spectre's Eye is nice but 24 Magicka recovery will give you more then double the hit points in return from heals over a peroid of just 20 seconds.
Aether and Willows is a no-brainer, it's completely countered by Impenetrable Seducer.

You're going to clarify exactly how you translated 8% Magicka Cost reduction to 8% average damage reduction. The two effects are not even comparable. Additionally, simplifying 20% dodge every 3 out of 6 seconds to 10% damage reduction is just that, a simplification. The reality is that for 3 seconds every 6 seconds our players take 20% reduced damage, and we would take 20% damage reduction 50% of the time over 10% damage reduction 100% of the time any day.

Aether and Willow's path is NOT a no-brainer because our Sorcs run with over 100% Spell Critical when they have their spell power potions active, which is as often as 83% of the time when they combine them with Potion Speed glyphs.

Finally, Seducer is worthless if your players are able to balance their Magicka effectively without it. If we never run out of Magicka, why would we choose cost reduction over Spectre's Eye? For example, my Sorcerer's healing build was as follows (this build is no longer used for other reasons):

5/5 Spectre's Eye
3/3 Willow's Path
3/5 Warlock's Jewelry with Potion Speed

Tri-potions, 100% Immovable uptime, Dark Conversion for Magicka sustain, Absorption Field ultimate.

This build not only never ran out of Magicka, it could chain 2-3 Streaks when crowd control was needed on demand.

Open your mind, there are a lot more viable builds than you believe there are.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

This just shows poor understanding of game mechanics and math in general.

For most casters seducers isn't an 8% reduction in magicka costs, it is far more.

With hard caps the way they are you can't say a blanket magicka recovery is better than anything. I'm already at soft cap MR so having more is wasted.

Dead people don't do damage, and they don't heal either because their dead. When you're sniped by a NB or invasion or crit charged by 3 people at once, that extra magicka isn't doing anything for you.

In PVP in most games it is proven time and time again, survivability trumps all else.

8% cost reduction is 8% cost reduction at most, never more. Cost reduction in this game is additive, which means nothing can cause 8% to be more than 8%. The cost formula for spells is as follows:

Cost = (Base - Flat Reduction) * (1 - %reduction).

If I have 2 rings with -20 magicka cost, seducer for 8% cost reduction and 3% cost reduction as a templar, my 400 magicka spell costs:

(400 - 40) * 0.89 = 320.4 Magicka

As you can see, the 11% cost reduction only removes 39.6 Magicka, not the 44 which would be expected. This is why 8% cost reduction is actually less than 8%, not more.

Tripwyr wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Stacking Impenetrable sacrifices the ability to use non-crafted gear sets. This is your trade off, and it is significant enough that the highest level players are debating how much Impenetrable we wear.

yeah true
which high level player other than assassins don't run 5 seducer?

Most of Alacrity does not run Seducer. I would say close to half of us wear 5 Spectre's Eye, others wear Crit-heavy sets like 3pc Aether, 3pc Willow's, etc. I would say probably only our Templars and maybe 1 or 2 of our Sorcs run Seducer.

I can't speak for other groups though.

None of those sets compare to Seducers.
For example:
Spectre's Eye is the equivalent to 10% damage reduction on average potentially worse and better based on the attacks you avoid. Someone wearing Seducers vs Spectre's Eye has their damage reduced by 10% thus potentially 10% of their Magicka used is wasted however Seducer reduces that 10% wasted to 2% due to the 8% reduction on spells. Edit: The armor and max Health from Spectre's Eye is nice but 24 Magicka recovery will give you more then double the hit points in return from heals over a peroid of just 20 seconds.
Aether and Willows is a no-brainer, it's completely countered by Impenetrable Seducer.

You're going to clarify exactly how you translated 8% Magicka Cost reduction to 8% average damage reduction. The two effects are not even comparable. Additionally, simplifying 20% dodge every 3 out of 6 seconds to 10% damage reduction is just that, a simplification. The reality is that for 3 seconds every 6 seconds our players take 20% reduced damage, and we would take 20% damage reduction 50% of the time over 10% damage reduction 100% of the time any day.

Aether and Willow's path is NOT a no-brainer because our Sorcs run with over 100% Spell Critical when they have their spell power potions active, which is as often as 83% of the time when they combine them with Potion Speed glyphs.

Finally, Seducer is worthless if your players are able to balance their Magicka effectively without it. If we never run out of Magicka, why would we choose cost reduction over Spectre's Eye? For example, my Sorcerer's healing build was as follows (this build is no longer used for other reasons):

5/5 Spectre's Eye
3/3 Willow's Path
3/5 Warlock's Jewelry with Potion Speed

Tri-potions, 100% Immovable uptime, Dark Conversion for Magicka sustain, Absorption Field ultimate.

This build not only never ran out of Magicka, it could chain 2-3 Streaks when crowd control was needed on demand.

Open your mind, there are a lot more viable builds than you believe there are.

8% spell cost reduction results in 8% damage reduction because heals and shields come directly from Magicka. Yes it's not entirely the same but any good player will be able to prevent you from bursting them down, so the actual mitigation in such a situation is not needed and thus the damage is directly countered.
Yes 20% damage reduction 50% of the time is equal to 10% damage reduction 100% of the time, simple math.

Enough sustain to maintain immovable with theose builds? That is a load of ***. And spam skills with those builds? That is a load of ***. You maintain immovable whilst using Dark exchange? that is a load of ***.
The only way that will work is if during the fight you spend alot of time not using magicka or stamina... In which case your damage output is reduced insignifcantly because the scaling in this game is not high enough and thus the base stats (damage heals etc) make resource management ALOT stronger.

With full warlock-seducers you are able to spam spells non-stop for quite a longtime, but even then you run out of magicka.

When your Stamina and Magicka runs out, which it does because you cannot spam skills with those builds like you tend to think, then the guy who countered all your damage with blocking and heals is now in a position to kill you.

Other viable builds only exist in a game where there are counters to the most strongest builds, but there just isn't. It's math... There's not these frequent godlike predictions in this game or any game, it's all very predictable. This game is on a Bruiser vs Swarmer style basis, getting that burst of damage through at the right times is hard when blocking whilst taking no damage is not punished, there is no "Outside" fighter except from perhaps the Sorceror with Streak which can't be spammed and is countered completely by Reflect.

Explain why I am wrong, don't just tell me I am wrong. Don't just tell me there are other viable builds, explain why. And don't lie, I've tested the most highest possible Magicka sustained builds possible in the game and even then you cannot spam skills. I'm talking 190+ Magicka Recovery with warlock-seducers breton passive or the alternative mixtures of spell cost reductions, I even tested with 49 points in magicka and outside of combat, doesn't change a thing, you cannot spam your skills like you are saying.

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

[

Pseudonym wrote: »

I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.

Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".

Yes you are missing something, learn more before commenting next time and you will get it

This is the point where you elaborate and educate me. I'm here to learn.

Ask yourself, "why is punishment important?"

I just asked myself why punishment is important. I replied to myself saying that punishment is important, because it teaches people right and wrong; without punishment we would have anarchy.

I assume you're going somewhere with this? Why do we need punishment for enchants? Seems to me that enchants are upgrades, and you shouldn't be punished for using them.

The term punishment when used in Gaming means taking a risk and not getting a reward.

I've played along until now, but it's become tedious. Am I right in saying that you want people to be punished for choosing to use impenetrable?

Yes, by buffing the other traits. Hence why I said "People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?"

They have different uses; the game isn't one dimentional. They sacrifice Magicka or Stamina, which for someone like me, who Snipes and attacks from range, is more important than impenetrable (because I don't plan on getting hit in the first place).

Then there are other non-crafted sets, which believe it or not, some people do use; and the PvE aspect of the game, where impenetrable isn't even a consideration.

Not everyone uses impenetrable. That alone should be evidence enough that it isn't the be all and end all.

100 Magicka, Stamina or Health isn't a sacrifice.

I'd gladly take that over a useless stat.

Useless stat for your useless build, indeed

There are plenty of alternatives and different builds. If you're relying on impenetrable in order to win your kills, you're doing it wrong.

Keep practicing, you'll get there.

Who said I'm relying on Impenetrable to win my kills? You are completely missing the point again and again and twisting what I have said. Goodbye troll. Have fun using snipe in a 1v1.

There's no need for name calling. I do quite well using Snipe in one-on-ones actually, so long as I get the first hit, but then again, that's my play-style. I rely on gaining the initiative and not getting caught unawares.

Nobody agreed with your original post. There's a reason for that.

Morticielle wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?

Why should anybody be punished for crafting his armor in the way he likes?

The real question is: Why is it possible to stack crit up to over 75% in the first place? In most games crit is capped at 50%. And even then I would run impenetrable.

In most games you are severely gimped for running that much crit, as you are in this game. You don't see people winning 1v1 against good players with that much crit.

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Stacking Impenetrable sacrifices the ability to use non-crafted gear sets. This is your trade off, and it is significant enough that the highest level players are debating how much Impenetrable we wear.

yeah true
which high level player other than assassins don't run 5 seducer?

Most of Alacrity does not run Seducer. I would say close to half of us wear 5 Spectre's Eye, others wear Crit-heavy sets like 3pc Aether, 3pc Willow's, etc. I would say probably only our Templars and maybe 1 or 2 of our Sorcs run Seducer.

I can't speak for other groups though.

None of those sets compare to Seducers.
For example:
Spectre's Eye is the equivalent to 10% damage reduction on average potentially worse and better based on the attacks you avoid. Someone wearing Seducers vs Spectre's Eye has their damage reduced by 10% thus potentially 10% of their Magicka used is wasted however Seducer reduces that 10% wasted to 2% due to the 8% reduction on spells. Edit: The armor and max Health from Spectre's Eye is nice but 24 Magicka recovery will give you more then double the hit points in return from heals over a peroid of just 20 seconds.
Aether and Willows is a no-brainer, it's completely countered by Impenetrable Seducer.

You're going to clarify exactly how you translated 8% Magicka Cost reduction to 8% average damage reduction. The two effects are not even comparable. Additionally, simplifying 20% dodge every 3 out of 6 seconds to 10% damage reduction is just that, a simplification. The reality is that for 3 seconds every 6 seconds our players take 20% reduced damage, and we would take 20% damage reduction 50% of the time over 10% damage reduction 100% of the time any day.

Aether and Willow's path is NOT a no-brainer because our Sorcs run with over 100% Spell Critical when they have their spell power potions active, which is as often as 83% of the time when they combine them with Potion Speed glyphs.

Finally, Seducer is worthless if your players are able to balance their Magicka effectively without it. If we never run out of Magicka, why would we choose cost reduction over Spectre's Eye? For example, my Sorcerer's healing build was as follows (this build is no longer used for other reasons):

5/5 Spectre's Eye
3/3 Willow's Path
3/5 Warlock's Jewelry with Potion Speed

Tri-potions, 100% Immovable uptime, Dark Conversion for Magicka sustain, Absorption Field ultimate.

This build not only never ran out of Magicka, it could chain 2-3 Streaks when crowd control was needed on demand.

Open your mind, there are a lot more viable builds than you believe there are.

8% spell cost reduction results in 8% damage reduction because heals and shields come directly from Magicka. Yes it's not entirely the same but any good player will be able to prevent you from bursting them down, so the actual mitigation in such a situation is not needed and thus the damage is directly countered.
Yes 20% damage reduction 50% of the time is equal to 10% damage reduction 100% of the time, simple math.

Enough sustain to maintain immovable with theose builds? That is a load of ***. And spam skills with those builds? That is a load of ***. You maintain immovable whilst using Dark exchange? that is a load of ***.
The only way that will work is if during the fight you spend alot of time not using magicka or stamina... In which case your damage output is reduced insignifcantly because the scaling in this game is not high enough and thus the base stats (damage heals etc) make resource management ALOT stronger.

With full warlock-seducers you are able to spam spells non-stop for quite a longtime, but even then you run out of magicka.

When your Stamina and Magicka runs out, which it does because you cannot spam skills with those builds like you tend to think, then the guy who countered all your damage with blocking and heals is now in a position to kill you.

Other viable builds only exist in a game where there are counters to the most strongest builds, but there just isn't. It's math... There's not these frequent godlike predictions in this game or any game, it's all very predictable. This game is on a Bruiser vs Swarmer style basis, getting that burst of damage through at the right times is hard when blocking whilst taking no damage is not punished, there is no "Outside" fighter except from perhaps the Sorceror with Streak which can't be spammed and is countered completely by Reflect.

Explain why I am wrong, don't just tell me I am wrong. Don't just tell me there are other viable builds, explain why. And don't lie, I've tested the most highest possible Magicka sustained builds possible in the game and even then you cannot spam skills. I'm talking 190+ Magicka Recovery with warlock-seducers breton passive or the alternative mixtures of spell cost reductions, I even tested with 49 points in magicka and outside of combat, doesn't change a thing, you cannot spam your skills like you are saying.

I can not explain Spectre's Eye any better than I already have, so I will leave you to misunderstand why we use it.

You can call my build *** all you want, but the reality is this:

Potion Speed enchants reduce my potion cooldown to 15 seconds. This means I have 100% uptime on the heal over time, 83% uptime on the stamina/magicka over time, and gain the frontload stat bonus every 15 seconds. This equates to an additional 109.6 Magicka and Stamina recovery when used on cooldown (character sheet recovery is measured in 2 second ticks). Adding this to my base 96 Magicka Recovery at the time, I had 205.6 effective Magicka Recovery as a Breton Sorcerer. Adding to this, Healing Springs (my go-to heal at the time) recovered Magicka on cast. Finally, I regenerated 674.4 Stamina over a period of 8 seconds leaving me with a surplus Stamina recovery of 58.6 while maintaining Immovable at 100% uptime. Since Dark Conversion on my Sorcerer gives me 204 Magicka for every 165 Stamina drained, that directly translates to another 72.45 Magicka Recovery. That was a lot of numbers so lets break it down:

Base Recovery: 96
Potion Recovery: 109.6
Dark Conversion Recovery: 72.45
Total: 278.05 Magicka Recovery

This does not even include any magicka regained through Absorption Field, which was my go-to ultimate, nor Replenishing Barrier which was my alternate ultimate. Nor does it include any magicka recovered from Healing Springs. Finally it does not include Radiant Aura (which at the time we had 2 Templars maintaining 100% of the time) nor Repentance (which our Templar Metal.Dimmu was literally famous for).

P.S. I'm a healer. I wasn't dealing damage, so I'm not sure why you were referencing damage dealt.

It's just math. Just FYI, if you have a 2300 Magicka Pool (which is generous for somebody who cares as much about survivability as you do), Warlock's Magicka Flood only grants an additional 25.3 Magicka Recovery landing you at a total Recovery of 215.3 Magicka Recovery.

tl;dr: My build did allow me to spam spells without running out of Magicka.

Tripwyr wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Stacking Impenetrable sacrifices the ability to use non-crafted gear sets. This is your trade off, and it is significant enough that the highest level players are debating how much Impenetrable we wear.

yeah true
which high level player other than assassins don't run 5 seducer?

Most of Alacrity does not run Seducer. I would say close to half of us wear 5 Spectre's Eye, others wear Crit-heavy sets like 3pc Aether, 3pc Willow's, etc. I would say probably only our Templars and maybe 1 or 2 of our Sorcs run Seducer.

I can't speak for other groups though.

None of those sets compare to Seducers.
For example:
Spectre's Eye is the equivalent to 10% damage reduction on average potentially worse and better based on the attacks you avoid. Someone wearing Seducers vs Spectre's Eye has their damage reduced by 10% thus potentially 10% of their Magicka used is wasted however Seducer reduces that 10% wasted to 2% due to the 8% reduction on spells. Edit: The armor and max Health from Spectre's Eye is nice but 24 Magicka recovery will give you more then double the hit points in return from heals over a peroid of just 20 seconds.
Aether and Willows is a no-brainer, it's completely countered by Impenetrable Seducer.

You're going to clarify exactly how you translated 8% Magicka Cost reduction to 8% average damage reduction. The two effects are not even comparable. Additionally, simplifying 20% dodge every 3 out of 6 seconds to 10% damage reduction is just that, a simplification. The reality is that for 3 seconds every 6 seconds our players take 20% reduced damage, and we would take 20% damage reduction 50% of the time over 10% damage reduction 100% of the time any day.

Aether and Willow's path is NOT a no-brainer because our Sorcs run with over 100% Spell Critical when they have their spell power potions active, which is as often as 83% of the time when they combine them with Potion Speed glyphs.

Finally, Seducer is worthless if your players are able to balance their Magicka effectively without it. If we never run out of Magicka, why would we choose cost reduction over Spectre's Eye? For example, my Sorcerer's healing build was as follows (this build is no longer used for other reasons):

5/5 Spectre's Eye
3/3 Willow's Path
3/5 Warlock's Jewelry with Potion Speed

Tri-potions, 100% Immovable uptime, Dark Conversion for Magicka sustain, Absorption Field ultimate.

This build not only never ran out of Magicka, it could chain 2-3 Streaks when crowd control was needed on demand.

Open your mind, there are a lot more viable builds than you believe there are.

8% spell cost reduction results in 8% damage reduction because heals and shields come directly from Magicka. Yes it's not entirely the same but any good player will be able to prevent you from bursting them down, so the actual mitigation in such a situation is not needed and thus the damage is directly countered.
Yes 20% damage reduction 50% of the time is equal to 10% damage reduction 100% of the time, simple math.

Enough sustain to maintain immovable with theose builds? That is a load of ***. And spam skills with those builds? That is a load of ***. You maintain immovable whilst using Dark exchange? that is a load of ***.
The only way that will work is if during the fight you spend alot of time not using magicka or stamina... In which case your damage output is reduced insignifcantly because the scaling in this game is not high enough and thus the base stats (damage heals etc) make resource management ALOT stronger.

With full warlock-seducers you are able to spam spells non-stop for quite a longtime, but even then you run out of magicka.

When your Stamina and Magicka runs out, which it does because you cannot spam skills with those builds like you tend to think, then the guy who countered all your damage with blocking and heals is now in a position to kill you.

Other viable builds only exist in a game where there are counters to the most strongest builds, but there just isn't. It's math... There's not these frequent godlike predictions in this game or any game, it's all very predictable. This game is on a Bruiser vs Swarmer style basis, getting that burst of damage through at the right times is hard when blocking whilst taking no damage is not punished, there is no "Outside" fighter except from perhaps the Sorceror with Streak which can't be spammed and is countered completely by Reflect.

Explain why I am wrong, don't just tell me I am wrong. Don't just tell me there are other viable builds, explain why. And don't lie, I've tested the most highest possible Magicka sustained builds possible in the game and even then you cannot spam skills. I'm talking 190+ Magicka Recovery with warlock-seducers breton passive or the alternative mixtures of spell cost reductions, I even tested with 49 points in magicka and outside of combat, doesn't change a thing, you cannot spam your skills like you are saying.

I can not explain Spectre's Eye any better than I already have, so I will leave you to misunderstand why we use it.

You can call my build *** all you want, but the reality is this:

Potion Speed enchants reduce my potion cooldown to 15 seconds. This means I have 100% uptime on the heal over time, 83% uptime on the stamina/magicka over time, and gain the frontload stat bonus every 15 seconds. This equates to an additional 109.6 Magicka and Stamina recovery when used on cooldown (character sheet recovery is measured in 2 second ticks). Adding this to my base 96 Magicka Recovery at the time, I had 205.6 effective Magicka Recovery as a Breton Sorcerer. Adding to this, Healing Springs (my go-to heal at the time) recovered Magicka on cast. Finally, I regenerated 674.4 Stamina over a period of 8 seconds leaving me with a surplus Stamina recovery of 58.6 while maintaining Immovable at 100% uptime. Since Dark Conversion on my Sorcerer gives me 204 Magicka for every 165 Stamina drained, that directly translates to another 72.45 Magicka Recovery. That was a lot of numbers so lets break it down:

Base Recovery: 96
Potion Recovery: 109.6
Dark Conversion Recovery: 72.45
Total: 278.05 Magicka Recovery

This does not even include any magicka regained through Absorption Field, which was my go-to ultimate, nor Replenishing Barrier which was my alternate ultimate. Nor does it include any magicka recovered from Healing Springs. Finally it does not include Radiant Aura (which at the time we had 2 Templars maintaining 100% of the time) nor Repentance (which our Templar Metal.Dimmu was literally famous for).

P.S. I'm a healer. I wasn't dealing damage, so I'm not sure why you were referencing damage dealt.

It's just math. Just FYI, if you have a 2300 Magicka Pool (which is generous for somebody who cares as much about survivability as you do), Warlock's Magicka Flood only grants an additional 25.3 Magicka Recovery landing you at a total Recovery of 215.3 Magicka Recovery.

tl;dr: My build did allow me to spam spells without running out of Magicka.

"Misunderstand why we use it", just explain it. Your not being able to spam your skills, at least your effective skills.

Healing springs is irrelevant because as far as I know Illustrious gives back more healing per magicka.
Absorption field is irrelevant because there are much better ultimates
Replenishing barrier depending on your situation (big enough group) is potentially relevant but cannot stack and thus cannot be just be efficiently used by many people in a group to utilize its full effectiveness.

It really depends on the most efficient skills but if you say the average skill cost is 260 without seducers then your Magicka recovery needs to be 300+ to spam skills because some skills can be used more than once a second.
If your base recovery is 96 then that's 48 a second. Your total would be more like 230. Not only that 674 Stamina every 8 seconds, and when are you going to block and dodge? Therefore you don't get the Dark Conversion Magicka recovery at all and potentially cannot maintain Immovable, this is cutting your Magicka Recovery down to 160 a second. Not even close to the 300+ which would be needed.
Now if you went seducers, you're cutting your average cost down to 230ish and therefore you are surviving longer.

Now, all of this has been said. Stick to the point.

Why is Spectre's Eye better? It is not.

I run four pieces on impen with my Templar S&B 7Hvy tank. I dont run any on my NB. I dont think the any sorc in my guild runs impen and about 50% of DKs run 4 impen. Point being is there are different ways to mitigate damage especially in a group PvP dynamic.

thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »

Pathfinder wrote: »

I run four pieces on impen with my Templar S&B 7Hvy tank. I dont run any on my NB. I dont think the any sorc in my guild runs impen and about 50% of DKs run 4 impen. Point being is there are different ways to mitigate damage especially in a group PvP dynamic.

There are different ways to mitigation damage in a group therefore Infused and Divines are better than Impenetrable. You miss the point and validate my point by recognising the need to mitigate critical hits.

/boggle

I can't tell if you're intentionally trolling or just naturally belligerent. Practically nothing you've said is correct and shows a basic lack of understanding of almost everything PvP.