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Crit is pointless because of impenetrable?
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Raeder✭✭✭PvP stats are stupid. SWG had a similar problem when high damage skills were 1 shotting people (Bounty Hunter Eyeshot). Instead of introducing a PvP trait on gear, SOE cut damage dealt to players by another player by 40%. This fixed that particular issue, and it would fix it here.0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If you're being 1-shot by anyone you're not built correctly for PVP. I haven't come close to being 1-shot by the highest possible damage ability in the game (short of the bugged blazing shields and such).
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Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭After 1.4 you wont be able to get crit of any kind higher than it was before 1.2, again.
They are fixing that crit scaling problem in PvP keep bonuses (somehow they became additive instead of taking only the highest one). We basically got 12% extra free crit chance cause someone goofed.
Max crit on an all-in build is going to hover back in the 60s again.@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭After 1.4 you wont be able to get crit of any kind higher than it was before 1.2, again.
They are fixing that crit scaling problem in PvP keep bonuses (somehow they became additive instead of taking only the highest one). We basically got 12% extra free crit chance cause someone goofed.
Max crit on an all-in build is going to hover back in the 60s again.
Good to know. I was wondering how the hell the max bonus was 20% crit somehow. I always recalled it being 8% back in volendrung days. It wasn't until I recently homed on Haderus that I realize how big a bonus people with Buff campaigns were rewarded with.
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timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'll take underpowered crits over overpowered crits any day. At the moment, nerfing impenetrable would make some already powerful builds just ridiculous.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
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Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »After 1.4 you wont be able to get crit of any kind higher than it was before 1.2, again.
They are fixing that crit scaling problem in PvP keep bonuses (somehow they became additive instead of taking only the highest one). We basically got 12% extra free crit chance cause someone goofed.
Max crit on an all-in build is going to hover back in the 60s again.
Good to know. I was wondering how the hell the max bonus was 20% crit somehow. I always recalled it being 8% back in volendrung days. It wasn't until I recently homed on Haderus that I realize how big a bonus people with Buff campaigns were rewarded with.
From PTS 1.4.2 notes
FIXES & IMPROVEMENTS
Alliance War
General
Fixed an issue where keep bonuses were stacking instead of new bonuses replacing the previous ones as they should.@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin0 -
R0M2K✭✭✭✭AnteCoyote wrote: »I still crit almost always from stealth.
You alwats crit from stealth man, even with 0 crit chance....0 -
Engelin✭✭You do get punished for running high impenetrable, u only have acces to crafted gear (almost). So a lot of good sets arent usable.
Impentrable is only fair in my mind, everything needs a counter in this game and that includes crit builds. Without impenetrable game would be unplayable, all you had to do to win was get your crit up and people die in 2 sec.3 -
xillix666✭✭You can't have your cake and eat it too. That's why there are enchants to prevent other stacking builds from being power. If you're stacking anything in this game and it's overpowered, be sure it will be nerfed or countered in some way.
That being said, whoever is stacking impen. is sacrificing their traits for something else, and I would imagine they are playing more of a tank role rather than a dps/crit to burn someone down quick with 50% + crit chance. Stacking spell damage to softcap or weapon damage to soft, with a more balanced regen or mana/stamina pools might be a wiser choice.
If there are people out there running around with 50-70 % (with alliance buffs) crit, I surely will be running around with impen on.
But careful, when you ask to get impen nerfed, you are asking for crit to be nerfed.0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭That being said, whoever is stacking impen. is sacrificing their traits for something else, and I would imagine they are playing more of a tank role rather than a dps/crit to burn someone down quick with 50% + crit chance.
Everyone who has any idea what they're doing stacks Impenetrable, regardless of role.
Also, it's not a sacrifice when Impenetrable is far and away the best possible trait you can have on your gear.
I guess you're "sacrificing" some of the non-crafted sets, which are mostly garbage for PvP. And even if they weren't, they would be, because they don't have Impenetrable.
Impen is simply that good.
Edited by Varicite on September 5, 2014 6:05PM2 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lava_Croft wrote: »
There is no such thing as an "impen stack build". Every single player who knows what they are doing stacks Impen.
Literally every build in the entire game is an "impen stack build", in other words.
"My crit stack build is not effective at all against any player who isn't a newbie" would be a better analogy.1 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?
Yes they are punished... no plus to enchants,armor,mundus stone.....PVP DEADWAIT
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?
Yes they are punished... no plus to enchants,armor,mundus stone.....
None of those things is better than -80% crit, though.
That's a choice, not a punishment.0 -
[thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?
Yes they are punished... no plus to enchants,armor,mundus stone.....
That's not punishment.0 -
You can't have your cake and eat it too. That's why there are enchants to prevent other stacking builds from being power. If you're stacking anything in this game and it's overpowered, be sure it will be nerfed or countered in some way.
That being said, whoever is stacking impen. is sacrificing their traits for something else, and I would imagine they are playing more of a tank role rather than a dps/crit to burn someone down quick with 50% + crit chance. Stacking spell damage to softcap or weapon damage to soft, with a more balanced regen or mana/stamina pools might be a wiser choice.
If there are people out there running around with 50-70 % (with alliance buffs) crit, I surely will be running around with impen on.
But careful, when you ask to get impen nerfed, you are asking for crit to be nerfed.
As I have said there is no punishment for using Impenetrable! Infused and Divines are less than mediocre! There is no sacrifice.
It should reduce critical damage, not chance.0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?
Yes they are punished... no plus to enchants,armor,mundus stone.....
None of those things is better than -80% crit, though.
That's a choice, not a punishment.
I disagree.
If you're dueling perhaps -80% crit can be important but in large scale PVP the vast majority of players have 30% crit or less.
There are rapidly diminishing returns on successive increases in impenetrable where in most cases infused would be a better choice.
Having 30% Imepenetrable for example would eliminate ~90% of the crits you would have suffered had you zero impenetrable. Having 40% impen probably removes ~95% and 50% ~98%.
As was pointed out, once this bugged 12% bonus crit people are getting is removed very shortly, the value of extreme levels of impenetrable will diminish. In my calculations having at least 3 pieces of Impen for your PVP set is an absolute must, 4 or 5 pieces are worth it if you can do it, but 6, 7 and 8 pieces are overkill and you're better off with infused.
You will face far more players and fights where the extra 26 health per piece of infused will save you than the extra 10% crit reduction that is wasted because they don't have anywhere near that high of crit.
It all comes down to math and probability.
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?
Yes they are punished... no plus to enchants,armor,mundus stone.....
None of those things is better than -80% crit, though.
That's a choice, not a punishment.
I disagree.
If you're dueling perhaps -80% crit can be important but in large scale PVP the vast majority of players have 30% crit or less.
There are rapidly diminishing returns on successive increases in impenetrable where in most cases infused would be a better choice.
Having 30% Imepenetrable for example would eliminate ~90% of the crits you would have suffered had you zero impenetrable. Having 40% impen probably removes ~95% and 50% ~98%.
As was pointed out, once this bugged 12% bonus crit people are getting is removed very shortly, the value of extreme levels of impenetrable will diminish. In my calculations having at least 3 pieces of Impen for your PVP set is an absolute must, 4 or 5 pieces are worth it if you can do it, but 6, 7 and 8 pieces are overkill and you're better off with infused.
You will face far more players and fights where the extra 26 health per piece of infused will save you than the extra 10% crit reduction that is wasted because they don't have anywhere near that high of crit.
It all comes down to math and probability.
In a case like what you've written here, Impenetrable becomes even better than before, as enchanting Impenetrable on "small" armor pieces (ie: gloves, boots, belt, etc) does not diminish like other enchants.
So if you only want to counter 30-40% crit from others and still put Divines or Infused on the large pieces, this is entirely possible, whereas the benefit you'd have gotten from Infused on the small pieces is minimal.
This is another issue w/ the current implementation of Impenetrable.
You can either go full bore w/ 80% crit reduction, or still pick up a hefty boost from a different trait on your large pieces and still negate 30-40% crit easily.
It's barely a tradeoff, and it most certainly isn't anything resembling a "punishment".1 -
Pseudonym✭✭✭I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.
Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".1 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »The entire concept of stacking crit makes zero sense to me with the exception where you aren't given an option or are already softcapped on something else. If someone is running over 70% in their normal build they're going to be doing far less damage than someone who is running spell /weapon damage when presented with the option for +damage instead.
Point for point crit is already MORE expensive than +damage with respect to overall damage. Sure it builds ult faster and some synergies work better with crit, but the concept of impenetrable directly reduces the effectiveness of crit and thus makes it a secondary or tertiary stat choice for most players.
The only thing crit has going for it right now is farming garbage players and low levels for bonus ultimate and AP.
149 spell damage, 206 weapon damage while stealthed, 136 spell damage out of stealth, 200 weapon damage. And since my build is based off spell damage... You sacrifice nothing to stack crit. You get two daggers with precise and if they're legendary that right there is ALOT of crit, thief stone, or shadow. Depending on playstyle and preference. I think my Altmer sits at 71.2% critical chance for weapons and 55% crit for spells, I know Khajiit can get 5-10% higher with their passives. Impenetrable really does nothing unless someone's gear is substantially high with it. What bends over my build now is blocking, the 1.8k Ambush crit followed by Surprise Attack/Concealed Weapon for an additional 1.5-2k crit is just gone. Never happens anymore unless I'm really really lucky, so yeah. Nothing is sacrificed to gain critical chance, I don't even use a set that boosts it either.
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[I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.
Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".
Yes you are missing something, learn more before commenting next time and you will get it0 -
Pseudonym✭✭✭thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »[I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.
Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".
Yes you are missing something, learn more before commenting next time and you will get it
This is the point where you elaborate and educate me. I'm here to learn.0 -
thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »[I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.
Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".
Yes you are missing something, learn more before commenting next time and you will get it
This is the point where you elaborate and educate me. I'm here to learn.
Ask yourself, "why is punishment important?"0 -
Tripwyr✭✭✭✭✭Stacking Impenetrable sacrifices the ability to use non-crafted gear sets. This is your trade off, and it is significant enough that the highest level players are debating how much Impenetrable we wear.Alacrity Founder | Forum Emperor
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Pseudonym✭✭✭thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »[I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.
Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".
Yes you are missing something, learn more before commenting next time and you will get it
This is the point where you elaborate and educate me. I'm here to learn.
Ask yourself, "why is punishment important?"
I just asked myself why punishment is important. I replied to myself saying that punishment is important, because it teaches people right and wrong; without punishment we would have anarchy.
I assume you're going somewhere with this? Why do we need punishment for enchants? Seems to me that enchants are upgrades, and you shouldn't be punished for using them.0 -
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thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »[I don't see the problem here? If impenetrable is the best enchant for PvP, then use impenetrable for PvP. We all have that option. It isn't class or race specific.
Am I missing something? All I'm hearing is "people are countering my attacks with defense, make it stop".
Yes you are missing something, learn more before commenting next time and you will get it
This is the point where you elaborate and educate me. I'm here to learn.
Ask yourself, "why is punishment important?"
I just asked myself why punishment is important. I replied to myself saying that punishment is important, because it teaches people right and wrong; without punishment we would have anarchy.
I assume you're going somewhere with this? Why do we need punishment for enchants? Seems to me that enchants are upgrades, and you shouldn't be punished for using them.
The term punishment when used in Gaming means taking a risk and not getting a reward.0 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorcs depend on this soo much... i dont mind a buff to crit surge to offset this for Sorcs.. Other classes do can do much better without crazy crits then a sorc...PVP DEADWAIT
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