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Why are banks still 'broken'? Because ZOS actually CAN'T fix them...
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vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Im pretty sure every time i log of there is a fella in a room writing down the stuff i have in my banks and inventory. And then when i log on he manually loads them back in. Im pretty sure that is why the load time is there.
Of course there is actually nothing broken about the banks. I think the system is great.4 -
Sarenia✭✭✭✭✭vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »Im pretty sure every time i log of there is a fella in a room writing down the stuff i have in my banks and inventory. And then when i log on he manually loads them back in. Im pretty sure that is why the load time is there.Reminds me of the original mobile PC.
Edited by Sarenia on September 5, 2014 6:12PM[beta_group_85b_9]3 -
poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
Sure he does, and so do I. SQL rules data storage and access, there is no way it's cludged into a file.Sorry, but there is no way ESO accounts and characters are stored in a flat file. They're stored in a SQL database(s) along with everything else.
That said, there would be a lot of work to redesign, reimplement, and retest banks and inventory.
Quite possibly you are correct. And quite possibly you are dead wrong too.
I don't know and neither do you.
Standard Query Language, go learn. I used to actually use it and liked SQL for many things. I ran servers myself.
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poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭OK OK more than likely its a database of some sort and not flat files, I will have to change my opinion on that one. However I am still holding to the idea that ZOS cannot change the banking system due to some irreversible design they implemented a long time ago without potentially causing a lot of damage to the code.
As for the couple individuals that have no idea whats wrong with the banking system, let me clarify: the issue is not that the account wide banks exist, the issue is that the account wide bank is the *only* bank for all your characters to use and share. IF you have one character that does cooking, your bank will soon be crammed and overflowing with all the ingredients present int he game, and yes, you need them all, even the low level ones. Now go start another character and pick enchanting. Oh, wait, your bank is full of food, so where you going to put all those different runes you have to gather? God help you if you pick up one more character and do a different craft with that one.
I have only 2 characters that I play, the rest are all banking mules perma-parked at a bank just to hold the items I need for crafting, and future use equipment I get or find. Often I find myself having to decide which green item to delete because I cant find a place to put it.
Part of the issue is there is no crafting progression of materials. This also leads to a separate issue with provisioning, see as you level the mats you find increase in their level, so a level 30 player will find level 30-ish mats only. But with provisioning you always need those level 1 mats just to make things, even the high level recipes might need a low level mats to make, so how do you find that when you actually can't find it because the game scales the mats you find with your level. Answer: Make an alt to gather low level mats for your other characters.
This all goes hand in hand, one poorly conceived system effecting another system and causing a snowball effect down hill. The end result is that the entire thing feels like it was conceived by high schoolers. But that's the big picture, if you look at JUST banking, yeah, its fine, if you look at JUST provisioning, yeah its fine, but combine the systems and you have a failure point. It feels like during the conception stage no one making plans for things talked to other people making plans and now the systems are clashing against each other badly.
I run a full slate with 8 chars and only one is a mule. The crafters carry their own stuff and I pay for that to be big enough. The common items, the material traits etc go in the bank for all the crafters to use.
It takes discipline and time to get it all right but apart from going out with only about 20 slots free it works just fine.
As well the point of SQL is that it can be changed to fit any new scheme with a few database changes, That is just one part of why it's so usefulEdited by poodlemasterb16_ESO on September 5, 2014 6:28PM0 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭It could be true. It simply does not make sense how short sighted ZOS appears when it comes to the guild bank/bank/Guild Tools systems... It is utterly flawed.>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »It could be true. It simply does not make sense how short sighted ZOS appears when it comes to the guild bank/bank/Guild Tools systems... It is utterly flawed.
I'm not sure how they are being "short-sighted".
Managing your inventory has always been a large part of the TES series.
It's really not difficult for them to simply add a larger limit to the bank whenever they feel it's necessary.2 -
rsciw✭✭✭poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »
Sure he does, and so do I. SQL rules data storage and access, there is no way it's cludged into a file.Sorry, but there is no way ESO accounts and characters are stored in a flat file. They're stored in a SQL database(s) along with everything else.
That said, there would be a lot of work to redesign, reimplement, and retest banks and inventory.
Quite possibly you are correct. And quite possibly you are dead wrong too.
I don't know and neither do you.
Standard Query Language, go learn. I used to actually use it and liked SQL for many things. I ran servers myself.
"Structured", not Standard
On a sidenote, I'd love to see a multi-redundant/HA single text file ^^
DB changes are doable, and often require code adjustments too, of course, but it's not like it's something impossible. In case of the banking amount, I reckon is rather something fairly simple too, just that those limits are in place for a reason.
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MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭because ZOS has already committed to a horribly designed system.
That's odd, because this is how I feel about phasing and grouping and guild stores and lack of encounter scaling and forced solo instancing.Edited by MercyKilling on September 5, 2014 7:02PMI am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So to sum it up: We will never see individual character banks or guild tabs because ZOS has already committed to a horribly designed system.
DO not read this as fact, I am merely posting what I think might be the reason.
Wait, hold on a minute. There are actually people who want their bank to be separated by characters?
Why!?As for the couple individuals that have no idea whats wrong with the banking system, let me clarify: the issue is not that the account wide banks exist, the issue is that the account wide bank is the *only* bank for all your characters to use and share. IF you have one character that does cooking, your bank will soon be crammed and overflowing with all the ingredients present int he game, and yes, you need them all, even the low level ones. Now go start another character and pick enchanting. Oh, wait, your bank is full of food, so where you going to put all those different runes you have to gather? God help you if you pick up one more character and do a different craft with that one.
So what you are asking for is more bank slots. Okay.
Just make a mule then if you are not bothered by trading items from one character to another anyway.
Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
GnatB✭✭✭✭Why the heck would they want to break the banking system by converting a shared bank (awesome) into individual banks (sucky). Shared bank gives you everything the individual bank does, and then some.
Your problem isn't with the shared bank. Your problem is that the shared bank isn't big enough for you.
I'll take a bank with 80 slots shared among 8 characters over each character getting their own bank with 10 slots any day.Achievements Suck2 -
Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭Long load times, failed loads, losses and dupes. Yep, no issues with the DB, it's just the design."You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"0 -
butterfly442✭✭✭ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »Maybe Because (and I know I'm gonna get flamed for this) its one of many design choices to keep gold sellers out. They make it by account so your characters can still trade back and forth but unlike with other MMO's you can mail items to yourself. So you want another character to have some items you put it in the bank log off and log on with the other one. If there are 200 log out and ins in 2 minutes its gonna send up a reg flag.
/flameon
You can? o.O
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Nazon_Katts wrote: »Long load times, failed loads, losses and dupes. Yep, no issues with the DB, it's just the design.
I had losses, no dupes, right at release due to an early access bank bug...have there been other actual recent bank bugs...the losses and dupes you're mentioning? Or are those issues from may/june?NA MegaServer
Alicron AD Altmer Templar
Caltrinity EP Dunmer Sorcerer
Brehhanon Moonblood DC Breton Nightblade0 -
MornaBaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not charmed by the current system and that's mostly for 2 reasons. Bank (and bag) space is stupidly expensive and far too restrictive considering the space crafting takes up. The other major flaw is the inability to auto stack or even manually stack items within the guild bank. Having to actually pull stackable items out of the guild bank into your inventory and then put them back in the bank once you've stacked them inside your inventory is just flatly stupid and infuriating. I love my guild and they contribute to the guild bank generously. But apparently none of them can be bothered to do this while they are in there....so there goes ANOTHER hour of my play time every damn day along with the time I waste dealing with the ridiculous guild store system they inflicted upon us. I think I should be able to total up my weekly hours wasted because of their design flaws and have that added to my game time balance.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!0 -
Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭andre.roques.3b14_ESO wrote: »Nazon_Katts wrote: »Long load times, failed loads, losses and dupes. Yep, no issues with the DB, it's just the design.
I had losses, no dupes, right at release due to an early access bank bug...have there been other actual recent bank bugs...the losses and dupes you're mentioning? Or are those issues from may/june?
They're not as wide spread as before, but are still happening. Since it's down to individual cases mostly, here's hoping they got most of the issues worked out. There's still an overall performance issue that's going to prevent any more extensions to the DB any time soon, but I'm certain, most of the limits we see on storage and guild functionality were due to the DB not operating properly.
Except storage capacity, where I still believe that it's limits are in place for possible monetization also. But things are improving, we got additional guild ranks after all. And, as I've said, most symptoms are rarely noticeable anymore, but what we've got isn't by some design, but owed to an underperforming DB setup.
I suppose it directly links to the phasing issues and server infrastructure as well, which is why they are not dealing with a simple problem that has a simple solution, but rather a complicated net of interdependencies that's failing at a few connections and drags everything else down with it.
"You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"0 -
daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm fine with the bank being shared. That said--there's a lot of crappy design here that sure could use improvement--and believe me, it's ALL fixable.
--The filter options are terrible without an addon (Thank you AdvancedFilters!)
--You can't see your bank/bags at the same time
--It doesn't even show you the freaking amount of space in bank/bag at the same time (have to switch between 'em)
--Constantly have to go in and out of the banker screen to switch between bank, guild bank, and guild stores (and listen to the freaking banker spiel).
--No separate storage for trophies, pets like most games offer
--Long, lazy drop-down menu you have to scroll down instead of optional grid views (at least without another damn addon)
And this isn't even getting into the guild store with its limitations on searching, organizing, and selling. (OK--quickly: Terrible default search options, terrible sorting options, don't tell you what you sold in the SOLD! emails, don't even show you that you're in the Guild Bank when you're on the deposit screen for it so it's easy to forget and put something in the wrong place after doing the required 20 back and forth jumps between the screens to manage things, you have to retype every price individually when putting items up for sale--even if you just typed it in for the same exact item--it should remember what you've listed and auto-fill the price, you have to go outside the SELL screen to split items, the text search filter is just for the current page in the BUY window of the Guild Store which has such terrible sort options many times whatever you're looking for is spread across several pages--they could have at least had the text search look in all the current pages of hits on your filters)Edited by daneyulebub17_ESO on September 5, 2014 10:01PMThis message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your subscription to The Elder Scrolls Online. You will no longer be charged for a subscription on a recurring basis, and your access to the game will expire at the end of your current subscription cycle.
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Please print this email and keep it for your records.1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorry, but there is no way ESO accounts and characters are stored in a flat file. They're stored in a SQL database(s) along with everything else.
That said, there would be a lot of work to redesign, reimplement, and retest banks and inventory.
Quite possibly you are correct. And quite possibly you are dead wrong too.
I don't know and neither do you.
You're right, i don't know. But what I do know is this:
Flat files are not worth the extra headache over databases.
Flat files don't support multiple read/write operations at once.
The scale of ESO just doesn't fit a flat file. You'll either have a massive slow file, multiple huge files, or many small files, each with an index. You could design and engineer that, or just use a better industry standard. A database
If you mess up a line in a flat file, the entire row of data is bad. You don't want that. Avoidable with a DB.
Flat files should in no way ever be considered for anything of the scale of ESO accounts and characters.
Corrupted database = ?
Corrupted flat file = ?
database may well give you faster easier access....but on the ease of maintenance and integrity side, I would rather have a flat file system TBH. Better to lose 1 or 2 files (1-2 customers) than a 1 or 2 databases (1000s of customers).Edited by Rune_Relic on September 5, 2014 10:29PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited4 -
k9mouse✭✭✭✭✭
✭The bank system is anit-pack Skeevers! I have no problem with the bank system myself.0 -
raglau✭✭✭✭✭The point is you will very rarely lose the DBs as they are transaction logging structures that can be backed up while live, mirrored, replicated, clustered etc. An RDBMS setup for say a million subs would be far less error prone than 1m flat files.
The TCO of managing 1m flat files would be vastly higher than a 1m user DB, which is quite small in modern DB terms. The data integrity would be far higher using a standard transaction logging RDBMS.
There is absolutely no way flat files are used for this solution.Rune_Relic wrote: »Sorry, but there is no way ESO accounts and characters are stored in a flat file. They're stored in a SQL database(s) along with everything else.
That said, there would be a lot of work to redesign, reimplement, and retest banks and inventory.
Quite possibly you are correct. And quite possibly you are dead wrong too.
I don't know and neither do you.
You're right, i don't know. But what I do know is this:
Flat files are not worth the extra headache over databases.
Flat files don't support multiple read/write operations at once.
The scale of ESO just doesn't fit a flat file. You'll either have a massive slow file, multiple huge files, or many small files, each with an index. You could design and engineer that, or just use a better industry standard. A database
If you mess up a line in a flat file, the entire row of data is bad. You don't want that. Avoidable with a DB.
Flat files should in no way ever be considered for anything of the scale of ESO accounts and characters.
Corrupted database = ?
Corrupted flat file = ?
database may well give you faster easier access....but on the ease of maintenance and integrity side, I would rather have a flat file system TBH. Better to lose 1 or 2 files (1-2 customers) than a 1 or 2 databases (1000s of customers).
Edited by raglau on September 5, 2014 11:17PM1 -
Tyr✭✭✭✭Sorry, but there is no way ESO accounts and characters are stored in a flat file. They're stored in a SQL database(s) along with everything else.
That said, there would be a lot of work to redesign, reimplement, and retest banks and inventory.
Quite possibly you are correct. And quite possibly you are dead wrong too.
I don't know and neither do you.
What the hell are you talking about man. "datablock that is the size of the maximum a bank can be "?? "hex code that represents the item in the bank"??
You clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about.
They use some form of SQL or object-oriented database like LITERALLY every other game engine in the past 10 years at least.
This is not speculation, this is fact because there's no other way to make ANY modern piece of software of any significant scale without databases.
Kindly show yourself out.
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Tyr✭✭✭✭OK OK more than likely its a database of some sort and not flat files, I will have to change my opinion on that one. However I am still holding to the idea that ZOS cannot change the banking system due to some irreversible design they implemented a long time ago without potentially causing a lot of damage to the code.
As for the couple individuals that have no idea whats wrong with the banking system, let me clarify: the issue is not that the account wide banks exist, the issue is that the account wide bank is the *only* bank for all your characters to use and share. IF you have one character that does cooking, your bank will soon be crammed and overflowing with all the ingredients present int he game, and yes, you need them all, even the low level ones. Now go start another character and pick enchanting. Oh, wait, your bank is full of food, so where you going to put all those different runes you have to gather? God help you if you pick up one more character and do a different craft with that one.
I have only 2 characters that I play, the rest are all banking mules perma-parked at a bank just to hold the items I need for crafting, and future use equipment I get or find. Often I find myself having to decide which green item to delete because I cant find a place to put it.
Part of the issue is there is no crafting progression of materials. This also leads to a separate issue with provisioning, see as you level the mats you find increase in their level, so a level 30 player will find level 30-ish mats only. But with provisioning you always need those level 1 mats just to make things, even the high level recipes might need a low level mats to make, so how do you find that when you actually can't find it because the game scales the mats you find with your level. Answer: Make an alt to gather low level mats for your other characters.
This all goes hand in hand, one poorly conceived system effecting another system and causing a snowball effect down hill. The end result is that the entire thing feels like it was conceived by high schoolers. But that's the big picture, if you look at JUST banking, yeah, its fine, if you look at JUST provisioning, yeah its fine, but combine the systems and you have a failure point. It feels like during the conception stage no one making plans for things talked to other people making plans and now the systems are clashing against each other badly.
Cut this "more than likely' crap dude. There's no question, it's not even possible without databases. Also the devs talk about database issues in this very forum including migrating databases to the EU server.
Further, you can't make any assumptions about what can or can't be changed because what you're seeing in the UI has little to do with the DEGREE OF FLEXIBILITY the database hooks within the engine have.
You can glean some hints from the API that's provided by the devs, but you clearly aren't making any arguments related to that either, so... all you're doing is baseless speculation.0 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭butterfly442 wrote: »ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »Maybe Because (and I know I'm gonna get flamed for this) its one of many design choices to keep gold sellers out. They make it by account so your characters can still trade back and forth but unlike with other MMO's you can mail items to yourself. So you want another character to have some items you put it in the bank log off and log on with the other one. If there are 200 log out and ins in 2 minutes its gonna send up a reg flag.
/flameon
You can? o.O
No, you can't. Mail is by account, not by character.0 -
Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭Either he's got still a bit of learning to do or is performing the ancient art of trolling. Any case, this is one of the better threads on this board."You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"2
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Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭Today, I think the OP has had a painful lesson in understanding the difference between thinking that you know and understand something and actually knowing something.
I think he will think twice next time.1 -
staxjax✭✭✭I'm failing to see what is broken here...
Working as intended = / = broken.Edited by staxjax on September 6, 2014 12:55AM1 -
stewie_801✭✭✭Part of the issue is there is no crafting progression of materials. This also leads to a separate issue with provisioning, see as you level the mats you find increase in their level, so a level 30 player will find level 30-ish mats only. But with provisioning you always need those level 1 mats just to make things, even the high level recipes might need a low level mats to make, so how do you find that when you actually can't find it because the game scales the mats you find with your level. Answer: Make an alt to gather low level mats for your other characters.
Pretty sure I take my vet 12 to Stonefalls (my starter zone) and collect mats for lower level recipes. You just have to be in a zone that drops that level of mats. They are not dependent on your level for whether they drop or not. Also in case you missed it, they are doing a provisioning revamp and they stated they would be cutting down the number of ingredients, so hopefully that will help you with your bank issues.
I do all my crafting on one character, including carrying items for their traits, alchemy plants and water, provisioning, enchanting, etc. I don't have bank space problems. I prefer the shared bank versus other MMOs that had individual banks. I don't have to send stuff back and forth or move things around to access something on another character. To each there own, but you can still make it work for you just like I made individual banks work for me in the other MMOs. IMO they haven't done anything in with the bank system because they don't feel that there are issues with it, not because they can't / too much work / cost too much money to do an overhaul.Edited by stewie_801 on September 6, 2014 3:24AMPC/NA Ebonheart PactInvictus , Teut Spindle Your Brindle OfficerStewie the Destroyer Imperial Templar Former Emperor of Haderus
Stewie's Big Ole Johnson Khajiit Nightblade
Ser Arthur Dayne Dark Elf Dragonknight Former Emperor of Chillrend and Haderus
Stewie's Bank Slot High Elf Sorcerer1 -
Khami✭✭✭✭s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »No, you don't need every single provisioning item, even the low level stuff. I see pictures of people's banks and alt inventories. Most of it is actually trash. Do you need two level 2 provisioning ingredients that are only used in an obscure drink recipe? Nope. Do you need 24 steel ingots when any new characters will outlevel that within an hour? Nope. Do you need potency 2 enchanting runes (used on items level 20 or so)? Nope. Do you need 4 stacks of Nickel (crafting style material)? No! Do you need a level 44 blue dagger with exploration trait on it when your main is VR5 and has all traits researched? No. Do you need 3 raw jute when your hireling only brings you void bloom? No.
I will disagree with most of what you said. Don't need 4 stacks of nickel and the low level provisioning, but there's nothing wrong with a crafter holding stacks of every mat. Guildmates make alts, they ask for low level gear.
A good crafter has those mats on hand.
Edited by Khami on September 6, 2014 4:24AM2 -
Little slow sometimes yes, broken? Hardly. More bank space? Sure why not./\:__:/\
(｡ ◕‿‿ ◕).0
