Why are banks still 'broken'? Because ZOS actually CAN'T fix them...

Talrenos · September 2014

I know a little bit about programming, so I am making some guesses here to deter mine why ZOS seems to refuse to fix banking and guild banking systems and has remained strangely quiet about them despite nearly everyone hating them.

I think the banks are hard coded to your account file and its too late to make changes. Ok, to expand on that, you exist on the server as a file, prolly one single file that contains all your data. Every character you have, inventory, and yes, your bank, all inside one file. Somewhere in this file is a datablock that is the size of the maximum a bank can be expanded to. This contains in each slot a hex code that represents the item in the bank.

Now each character section of this file contains the characters inventory, and as I would code it, the file for every player on the system would be the same layout and order, thus code could be written to quickly access part of the file without having to read in the whole thing every time the server accesses it. This makes sense to me and is a basic foundation of programming data access.

So why can't ZOS give us individual character banks instead of this account wide bank? Because its too late and would take a massive change in programming, and require every player file to be modified and updated. Quite simply the risk in fixing it is too great for creating a major F-up with how things are accessed, or worse corrupting every player file on the system.

The same basis is true for why guild banks do not have separate tabs that could be applied per rank. The data structure is set and cannot be changed without too much risk in the systems surrounding it.

So to sum it up: We will never see individual character banks or guild tabs because ZOS has already committed to a horribly designed system.

DO not read this as fact, I am merely posting what I think might be the reason.

j4k3s7a · September 2014

Sorry, but there is no way ESO accounts and characters are stored in a flat file. They're stored in a SQL database(s) along with everything else.

That said, there would be a lot of work to redesign, reimplement, and retest banks and inventory.

Talrenos · September 2014

j4k3s7a wrote: »

Sorry, but there is no way ESO accounts and characters are stored in a flat file. They're stored in a SQL database(s) along with everything else.

That said, there would be a lot of work to redesign, reimplement, and retest banks and inventory.

Quite possibly you are correct. And quite possibly you are dead wrong too.
I don't know and neither do you.

ers101284b14_ESO · September 2014

Maybe Because (and I know I'm gonna get flamed for this) its one of many design choices to keep gold sellers out. They make it by account so your characters can still trade back and forth but unlike with other MMO's you can mail items to yourself. So you want another character to have some items you put it in the bank log off and log on with the other one. If there are 200 log out and ins in 2 minutes its gonna send up a reg flag.

/flameon

Circuitous · September 2014

I can definitely say that j4k3s7a's idea makes a hell of a lot more sense from a planning, design, and implementation perspective than yours.

DieAlteHexe · September 2014

Guesses...

AlnilamE · September 2014

Why do you think that having a bank that's not shared between characters is a good idea?

Kos · September 2014

Talrenos wrote: »

I know a little bit about programming, so I am making some guesses here to deter mine why ZOS seems to refuse to fix banking and guild banking systems and has remained strangely quiet about them despite nearly everyone hating them.

I think the banks are hard coded to your account file and its too late to make changes. Ok, to expand on that, you exist on the server as a file, prolly one single file that contains all your data. Every character you have, inventory, and yes, your bank, all inside one file. Somewhere in this file is a datablock that is the size of the maximum a bank can be expanded to. This contains in each slot a hex code that represents the item in the bank.

Now each character section of this file contains the characters inventory, and as I would code it, the file for every player on the system would be the same layout and order, thus code could be written to quickly access part of the file without having to read in the whole thing every time the server accesses it. This makes sense to me and is a basic foundation of programming data access.

So why can't ZOS give us individual character banks instead of this account wide bank? Because its too late and would take a massive change in programming, and require every player file to be modified and updated. Quite simply the risk in fixing it is too great for creating a major F-up with how things are accessed, or worse corrupting every player file on the system.

The same basis is true for why guild banks do not have separate tabs that could be applied per rank. The data structure is set and cannot be changed without too much risk in the systems surrounding it.

So to sum it up: We will never see individual character banks or guild tabs because ZOS has already committed to a horribly designed system.

DO not read this as fact, I am merely posting what I think might be the reason.

Interesting topic. Do you work as a programmer?

j4k3s7a · September 2014

Talrenos wrote: »

j4k3s7a wrote: »

Sorry, but there is no way ESO accounts and characters are stored in a flat file. They're stored in a SQL database(s) along with everything else.

That said, there would be a lot of work to redesign, reimplement, and retest banks and inventory.

Quite possibly you are correct. And quite possibly you are dead wrong too.
I don't know and neither do you.

You're right, i don't know. But what I do know is this:

Flat files are not worth the extra headache over databases.
Flat files don't support multiple read/write operations at once.
The scale of ESO just doesn't fit a flat file. You'll either have a massive slow file, multiple huge files, or many small files, each with an index. You could design and engineer that, or just use a better industry standard. A database
If you mess up a line in a flat file, the entire row of data is bad. You don't want that. Avoidable with a DB.

Flat files should in no way ever be considered for anything of the scale of ESO accounts and characters.

Sarenia · September 2014

I find it highly, highly unlikely they'd use a single file as you describe.

Even my tiny home game server doesn't do that. Using it as an example:
* Character "core data" like stats are stored in a file.
* Bank data is stored via item IDs and gold amount in a database.

That is a much more elegant solution in comparison, and far more likely than a flat file. And that's for an ancient game. Furthermore, using a database allows you to gather statistical information, and make changes without manipulating one whole file. The former is vital, and I doubt it would have been overlooked when designing the game. They probably don't even store core character data in a flat file as described above.

I really don't think you're giving enough credit to the developers at ZOS. They didn't just tumble out of high school and pop open notepad, with a "Game Designing for Dumbies" book on their desk, to code ESO.

Nazon_Katts · September 2014

MMOs are nothing more than a giant DB with a fancy 3D interface.

Dagoth_Rac · September 2014

Talrenos wrote: »

j4k3s7a wrote: »

Sorry, but there is no way ESO accounts and characters are stored in a flat file. They're stored in a SQL database(s) along with everything else.

That said, there would be a lot of work to redesign, reimplement, and retest banks and inventory.

Quite possibly you are correct. And quite possibly you are dead wrong too.
I don't know and neither do you.

Saying that you can't rule out ESO being a flat file based MMO because none of us have ever seen the underlying code is like saying you can't rule out your car being coal-fired because you have never looked under the hood.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · September 2014

Flat files? I certainly hope not. There is most likely a database under the hood. However, some problems make me believe that the database, or the database server, or possibly both, might not be very well implemented.

The random inability to show anything when you try to view the contents of a guild bank. The errors in the UI to display achievements. The still broken "Eidetic Memory". The haphazard sorting and browsing of items in guild stores. The duping exploits that were fixed in a heavy-handed manner by making all bank transfers synchronous instead of using a transaction lock. All these things together point to a home-brew or otherwise deficient database system, or a badly implemented solution for an otherwise competent database system.

But of course, I'm just guessing as well.

ben_ESO5 · September 2014

LOL. I'm not entirely sure if this is a troll or not -- what was described by the OP would be some weird alternate reality of MMO programming in the 1970's. A modern "programmer" talking about an MMO using a flat file database structure? Did someone tear the space time continuum a new hole?

s7732425ub17_ESO · September 2014

Wait... what's wrong with the current bank?

But seriously. Having a shared bank is really nice. Individual characters already can have really large inventories, so you can also bank on low level alt characters if you really, really, really need to save those stacks of level 24-30 ingots even though your main is VR7.

Varicite · September 2014

We'd entirely lose the functionality of being able to send bound items to our alts if it were changed to what you want..

I want more bank slots, I don't need individual character banks.

Sarenia · September 2014

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wait... what's wrong with the current bank?

I also prefer individual bank + shared bank myself and don't consider this to be "broken" in any way.

I think this is just a veiled complaint thread about wanting more bank space.

s7732425ub17_ESO · September 2014

Sarenia wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wait... what's wrong with the current bank?

I also prefer individual bank + shared bank myself and don't consider this to be "broken" in any way.

I think this is just a veiled complaint thread about wanting more bank space.

Yea, even though banks go up to 240 slots (with 700k gold), and each alt an get an inventory size of 80 (with 5k gold).

Erock25 · September 2014

Banks aren't broken. Since when did a design decision start to classify something as broken?

Varicite · September 2014

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Sarenia wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wait... what's wrong with the current bank?

I also prefer individual bank + shared bank myself and don't consider this to be "broken" in any way.

I think this is just a veiled complaint thread about wanting more bank space.

Yea, even though banks go up to 240 slots (with 700k gold), and each alt an get an inventory size of 80 (with 5k gold).

Before pack horse, of course, which gives an additional 59 slots for a total of 139 per character.

Of course, I just use the Imperial horse as a packmule, which is only 49 extra slots, but saving 42k is pretty nice.

AlnilamE · September 2014

I believe each character can get an inventory size of 110 or 120.

Plus whatever inventory space you have on your equipped horse. I know my main is maxed out at 170 slots.

Talrenos · September 2014

Kos wrote: »

Talrenos wrote: »

I know a little bit about programming, so I am making some guesses here to deter mine why ZOS seems to refuse to fix banking and guild banking systems and has remained strangely quiet about them despite nearly everyone hating them.

I think the banks are hard coded to your account file and its too late to make changes. Ok, to expand on that, you exist on the server as a file, prolly one single file that contains all your data. Every character you have, inventory, and yes, your bank, all inside one file. Somewhere in this file is a datablock that is the size of the maximum a bank can be expanded to. This contains in each slot a hex code that represents the item in the bank.

Now each character section of this file contains the characters inventory, and as I would code it, the file for every player on the system would be the same layout and order, thus code could be written to quickly access part of the file without having to read in the whole thing every time the server accesses it. This makes sense to me and is a basic foundation of programming data access.

So why can't ZOS give us individual character banks instead of this account wide bank? Because its too late and would take a massive change in programming, and require every player file to be modified and updated. Quite simply the risk in fixing it is too great for creating a major F-up with how things are accessed, or worse corrupting every player file on the system.

The same basis is true for why guild banks do not have separate tabs that could be applied per rank. The data structure is set and cannot be changed without too much risk in the systems surrounding it.

So to sum it up: We will never see individual character banks or guild tabs because ZOS has already committed to a horribly designed system.

DO not read this as fact, I am merely posting what I think might be the reason.

Interesting topic. Do you work as a programmer?

No, but I program in C++ as a hobby.

Talrenos · September 2014

OK OK more than likely its a database of some sort and not flat files, I will have to change my opinion on that one. However I am still holding to the idea that ZOS cannot change the banking system due to some irreversible design they implemented a long time ago without potentially causing a lot of damage to the code.

As for the couple individuals that have no idea whats wrong with the banking system, let me clarify: the issue is not that the account wide banks exist, the issue is that the account wide bank is the *only* bank for all your characters to use and share. IF you have one character that does cooking, your bank will soon be crammed and overflowing with all the ingredients present int he game, and yes, you need them all, even the low level ones. Now go start another character and pick enchanting. Oh, wait, your bank is full of food, so where you going to put all those different runes you have to gather? God help you if you pick up one more character and do a different craft with that one.

I have only 2 characters that I play, the rest are all banking mules perma-parked at a bank just to hold the items I need for crafting, and future use equipment I get or find. Often I find myself having to decide which green item to delete because I cant find a place to put it.

Part of the issue is there is no crafting progression of materials. This also leads to a separate issue with provisioning, see as you level the mats you find increase in their level, so a level 30 player will find level 30-ish mats only. But with provisioning you always need those level 1 mats just to make things, even the high level recipes might need a low level mats to make, so how do you find that when you actually can't find it because the game scales the mats you find with your level. Answer: Make an alt to gather low level mats for your other characters.

This all goes hand in hand, one poorly conceived system effecting another system and causing a snowball effect down hill. The end result is that the entire thing feels like it was conceived by high schoolers. But that's the big picture, if you look at JUST banking, yeah, its fine, if you look at JUST provisioning, yeah its fine, but combine the systems and you have a failure point. It feels like during the conception stage no one making plans for things talked to other people making plans and now the systems are clashing against each other badly.

Azoryl · September 2014

There is nothing wrong with the current bank system.

People just love to make up new issues...

Varicite · September 2014

Talrenos wrote: »

let me clarify: the issue is not that the account wide banks exist, the issue is that the account wide bank is the *only* bank for all your characters to use and share.

People aren't confused about this, they just disagree w/ you.

I most especially disagree w/ how you want to implement the "fix". Just give us more bank slots, not individual banks.

s7732425ub17_ESO · September 2014

No, you don't need every single provisioning item, even the low level stuff. I see pictures of people's banks and alt inventories. Most of it is actually trash. Do you need two level 2 provisioning ingredients that are only used in an obscure drink recipe? Nope. Do you need 24 steel ingots when any new characters will outlevel that within an hour? Nope. Do you need potency 2 enchanting runes (used on items level 20 or so)? Nope. Do you need 4 stacks of Nickel (crafting style material)? No! Do you need a level 44 blue dagger with exploration trait on it when your main is VR5 and has all traits researched? No. Do you need 3 raw jute when your hireling only brings you void bloom? No.

wafant412b14a_ESO · September 2014

I like the fact that we have a shared bank between characters. Does it limit potential usable space? Yes, is it a bad thing? For me.... No. I have 111 slots on my person and 90 spots in my bank. My problem is I hang onto crap for far to long or don't go craft often enough to reduce my carried load.

dharbert · September 2014

Learn to manage your inventory. I am currently researching all 272 traits, along with the space needed for those items, and craft in every profession, and have plenty of bank and inventory space. You don't have to keep every little thing you find.

andre.roques.3b14_ESO · September 2014

I'll say this again because there seems to continually be problems with basic understanding(s).
Because you envision a different design for software doesn't make the current design wrong or broken or bugged.
You would have to convince ZOS that your design is the approach they should/must take. After they attempt to implement your vision of their system and it then doesn't meet your design can you then claim it is broken.

As is, you just have a different design in mind for the bank system. What I think you may be missing is that their bank design isn't just revolving around single player experience. It is part of the ecosystem they have created to maintain their economy design, their gameplay design, their anti-botter design, etc.

To answer your original concern, ZOS could absolutely implement the changes you have suggested. They have proven to be quite capable of creating a fairly stable game implementation...barring some of the major issues apparently with Cyrodill/PvP areas...but they will not implement such a design because you think that would be best for your playstyle/enjoyment. Their concern is for the vast majority of their subscribers and their overall game experience not just the focus on individual/account-wide banks.

Sorry for my little rant, but if you say something is broken it should be a bug rather than simply a difference in opinion. I guess I would be happier if the OP simply stated "Hey, I have a better idea you guys should consider".

Auric_ESO · September 2014

So from your title and your post you are making as assumption then basing a conclusion on that assumption.

Mildly interesting as an exercise but nothing more than that without a shred of proof to backup your assumption.

You do realize inflammatory post title based on wild speculation is akin to lying right? Post title reads like a statement of fact.

Erock25 · September 2014

Talrenos wrote: »

OK OK more than likely its a database of some sort and not flat files, I will have to change my opinion on that one. However I am still holding to the idea that ZOS cannot change the banking system due to some irreversible design they implemented a long time ago without potentially causing a lot of damage to the code.

As for the couple individuals that have no idea whats wrong with the banking system, let me clarify: the issue is not that the account wide banks exist, the issue is that the account wide bank is the *only* bank for all your characters to use and share. IF you have one character that does cooking, your bank will soon be crammed and overflowing with all the ingredients present int he game, and yes, you need them all, even the low level ones. Now go start another character and pick enchanting. Oh, wait, your bank is full of food, so where you going to put all those different runes you have to gather? God help you if you pick up one more character and do a different craft with that one.

I have only 2 characters that I play, the rest are all banking mules perma-parked at a bank just to hold the items I need for crafting, and future use equipment I get or find. Often I find myself having to decide which green item to delete because I cant find a place to put it.

Part of the issue is there is no crafting progression of materials. This also leads to a separate issue with provisioning, see as you level the mats you find increase in their level, so a level 30 player will find level 30-ish mats only. But with provisioning you always need those level 1 mats just to make things, even the high level recipes might need a low level mats to make, so how do you find that when you actually can't find it because the game scales the mats you find with your level. Answer: Make an alt to gather low level mats for your other characters.

This all goes hand in hand, one poorly conceived system effecting another system and causing a snowball effect down hill. The end result is that the entire thing feels like it was conceived by high schoolers. But that's the big picture, if you look at JUST banking, yeah, its fine, if you look at JUST provisioning, yeah its fine, but combine the systems and you have a failure point. It feels like during the conception stage no one making plans for things talked to other people making plans and now the systems are clashing against each other badly.

It's an intentional and good design decision to not let people horde materials. Get over it.