ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »

Greetings, everyone. Please remember to remain civil and constructive, even when discussions get heated. We are removing a number of comments from this thread that violate our Code of Conduct, which we encourage everyone to review so that this discussion can remain open. If this thread can't continue constructively, we'll need to close it.

Does it matter if the thread is constructive or not? Does it matter if ZOS is not even reading these threads? I mean we could post here the meaning of life, how to eradicate global warming, and 3 easy steps to complete world peace and none of those would ever see the light of day because these forums are only here for fanboi's and trolls to bicker about while ZOS uses them as a means of office humor.

Cuyler wrote: »

Once you say the words "world economy view" or "global" or whatever you'd like to call it....by implementing a global AH in it's traditional sense....that's it, khajits out of the bag. Prepare for rapid price devaluation.

The only way I could see your idea working is.....

if you can view the items and at which trader they are located but not be able to see the price it is listed for. This would make it much harder for players to immediately undercut the market and quickly deflate the economy.

That way you would know where to go directly to get the item saving your time but you would have to put in more effort to determine its price.

Here's where I think you're mistake really lies. Please pay attention people who keep using the price deflation argument against a global economy

The question is about rarity, value, price, availability, and economy isn't completely set by players hosting their items for some cost.

Your argument goes like this: If everyone can see that the Legendary UberGrand GreatSword of Ultimate Killage can be sold to an npc vendor for 5000g, the price will ultimately end up at 5001g. This happens because if everyone can see the guy selling it for 50,000g, the next guy will be selling it for 49,999g, and the next guy at 49,998g, all the way down to 5001g. This assumes there's going to be at least 45,000 drops of the Legendary UberGrand GreatSword of Ultimate Killage.

So there's 2 additional pieces at play for the final cost of the item; how often the item drops (its rarity) and what the npc vendor price is (the lower limit).

If ZOS has interest in keeping rare items having a high cost, here's a simple solution: make them rare. Instead they are trying to prevent market saturation on a price scale when they really are saturating the market with the items.

That's stupid. It's not going to work in the long run. People will fight it because it's against natural human market behavior and it's against market economic behavior. And low and behold, people are fighting it.

ZOS can control other aspects by still maintaining item cost. Rarity is one way. Another way is to increase the cost one can get from an npc. Another way is to make them unsellable to npcs.

What should a stack of 100 refined viodstone be worth? You can't just say 'whatever someone will pay'. That's obtuse. The real answer is 'whatever people can get it reliably and cheapest for'. ZOS is trying to throw a monkey wrench in that by making it just super inconvenient to get. So they ruin a game mechanic because they want to keep the price up? I don't understand the real motivation here.

What should a stack of 100 refined voidstone be worth? If I can sell it for a reasonable cost (400g) I might just do that if the inconvenience of me trying to sell it on the market is too high. Right now it is too high. I have a ton of crafting mats on the guild store that are about to expire from their 1 month stay because the market is saturated with those items and no one in the guild is going to pay the asking cost (a mere 900g, 500g less than the next guy is asking). Further, anyone who might need those items or want them for that price as any way really of finding them, short of torturing themselves by running all over Tamriel. The incentive to run all over looking for the best price isn't there. That violates human market behavior. It won't work. Stop it.

If you think the voidstone should sell for 1000g/stack, make the npc price 950g/stack and you'll see them sell for 1000g/stack in a world or global economy.

If you think the Legendary UberGrand GreatSword of Ultimate Killage should be in the millions, drop 5 of them every 6 months. They'll be worth more.

Supply and demand is how you control economics that fit with human market behavior. To use poor game mechanics just 1. makes players mad, 2. begs for players to find a way around it, 3. keeps complaints up, 4. makes the game un-fun because it doesn't fit within natural behavior of both Men and Mer in the market place.

It needs fixing.

Human market behaviour isn't monolithic.

Some people want convenience, and are willing to pay a bit more fore it, and other people want the best price and are willing to spend the time on it.

That fits in with the kiosks, and is also how things work in real life. Some people go to one store to do all their shopping, others will visit four or five because one product they want is cheaper in each place.

Even on the internet, if you go to a place like eBay or Amazon, just looking at the first list of prices won't tell you everything and you need to figure out shipping prices and times and whatnot.

The "time is money" adage works both ways. You have to choose which of the two you would like to spend.

Personally, I like the guild trader system because it fits in with the ESO world. I don't see the point of a global place to buy and sell and I would not use it.

How can anyone vote no to this question? Why would you not want something that is better? You prefer a system that is worse? If you are voting no you don't want a better trading system you are saying you prefer a worse system.

yes

AlnilamE wrote: »

Human market behaviour isn't monolithic.

Some people want convenience, and are willing to pay a bit more fore it, and other people want the best price and are willing to spend the time on it.

That fits in with the kiosks, and is also how things work in real life. Some people go to one store to do all their shopping, others will visit four or five because one product they want is cheaper in each place.

Even on the internet, if you go to a place like eBay or Amazon, just looking at the first list of prices won't tell you everything and you need to figure out shipping prices and times and whatnot.

The "time is money" adage works both ways. You have to choose which of the two you would like to spend.

Personally, I like the guild trader system because it fits in with the ESO world. I don't see the point of a global place to buy and sell and I would not use it.

In many cases you can get good prices, quality products, all in one place though. Your post implies you cannot get both things at once, but then you post Amazon and eBay as examples, which does exactly those things

@kitsinni‌, I believe some people vote no because they think the system is perfect the way it is now and can't possibly be improved upon.

Or they fear a yes vote means they are saying they want an auction house, which ZOS has made clear we aren't getting so there's no point asking for one.

I can learn to live with a system of guild stores and kiosks, but would like to see some of the improvements mentioned here and in numerous threads on the issue. Ideally I'd like to see larger zone markets where you can view more than one guild store at a time, search being as cumbersome as it is. Or at the very least be able to save my search from one store to the next.

kitsinni wrote: »

How can anyone vote no to this question? Why would you not want something that is better? You prefer a system that is worse? If you are voting no you don't want a better trading system you are saying you prefer a worse system.

Thus far none of the suggestions I've seen on forums are "better" and most pertain to "global AH", so here I've taken better to mean "something other than the current system" and I am perfectly happy with the system we have

Yes I want something better. I'm still having problems finding anything worthwhile that's priced reasonably.

Troponin wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Human market behaviour isn't monolithic.

Some people want convenience, and are willing to pay a bit more fore it, and other people want the best price and are willing to spend the time on it.

That fits in with the kiosks, and is also how things work in real life. Some people go to one store to do all their shopping, others will visit four or five because one product they want is cheaper in each place.

Even on the internet, if you go to a place like eBay or Amazon, just looking at the first list of prices won't tell you everything and you need to figure out shipping prices and times and whatnot.

The "time is money" adage works both ways. You have to choose which of the two you would like to spend.

Personally, I like the guild trader system because it fits in with the ESO world. I don't see the point of a global place to buy and sell and I would not use it.

In many cases you can get good prices, quality products, all in one place though. Your post implies you cannot get both things at once, but then you post Amazon and eBay as examples, which does exactly those things

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that it was never possible, only that there are two ways of going about shopping for stuff. And even when you shop around, the cheapest price may have been at the first place you looked anyway.

It also varies depending on whether you want only 1 item or a list of things. For example, I get flyers for about 5 grocery stores in my area. I can chose to go to one of them and get the deals I want and buy the rest of the stuff I need at regular price, or I can list which item is cheapest at each of them and visit all five to do my groceries.

Amazon and eBay are convenient places to get mainstream stuff cheaply. Since I have bought things from them that were less than common, I have run into barriers. In the context of the game, I don't consider them an AH equivalent. They would be the equivalent of a large trading guild.

kitsinni wrote: »

Instead we have a system where you have to - gasp - shop to buy something, and where you might want to advertise to sell something.

Shopping sucks in real life. I don't want to have to do it in game. In a game I want to relax. Now, this may be coming off as sexist, but are you female? Most women I know *love* shopping. Studies indicate that most men detest it. (Amusingly, one study I saw reported that when shopping, the average man experiences stress levels equivalent to that of a jet fighter pilot *in combat*)

I play games to relax, not get even MORE stressed.

@Ohioastro @Cuyler

Ohioastro wrote: »

It's really easy to vote no. Because it's an implied vote for a global auction house, which I really dislike.

You both need to read the thread:

Super_Sonico wrote: »

I very much encourage everyone to stop using the 'Auction House' language. I can only assume that this comes from WoW. And in general I think it is causing a 'we're not WoW' knee-jerk reaction against it.

Plus, I don't want 'ESO meets E-Bay'.

I just want an alliance based or world based economy where prices will settle down and stabilize, and where I can see that trying to sell X resource won't sell because the market is flooded with them. I don't want to have to join 5 different trade guilds just to off-load my wares. It defeats the purpose of what a guild should be (or what they classically have been in 99% of games before).

I just want the ability to see what's being sold by everyone. At this point I'd just settle for a /trade channel. ...

Cuyler wrote: »

That's not an argument. I think we can both agree that is a factual effect of what happens on a global AH.

That 'reality' is your argument for not having a better system. Thank you for admitting it.

Cuyler wrote: »

The problem is that when drop rates are lowered, those items become available to only the players that put in the effort and have significant amount of time to farm, increasing the probability of getting the item.

So your argument for screwing every other player in the game on having a fair trade economy is that you just want to do the least amount of work to buy your toys??

This argument works both ways. I don't want my time wasted (cause I don't have it) to run all over creating looking for fair, reasonable prices for items in game.

You don't want items to be rare because you don't want to waste your time trying over and over to get what is supposed to be a rare item.

Logic is completely on my side in this. Screwing the market base is no way to treat the majority of players because the minority of you want to be able to have a skewed market value for items that really aren't rare in the first place.

My biggest complaint is that why is the market slanted toward the few sellers instead of the major of us buyers? The game mechanic forces it so and the rest of us don't have an option.

Cuyler wrote: »

The current system is one that anyone, even the most casual of players, can acquire rare items if only they are willing to put in the effort to go looking for it. Which I'd add is one I think needs a few tweaks but keeps the playing field more balanced than simply nerfing drop rates.

This is where your argument is broken. It's actually less effort to just go run the mission and farm it from the drop rate than it is to run to all the vendors and try and keep track of all the pricing changes. It doesn't work as it is.

Cuyler wrote: »

Just a note. I price my refines at 500-700g. They seem to sell all day every day.

Now you get it!! See? This happens in your guild, which I can't see. In my guild I'm the cheapest, but globally I'm not and I have no way of knowing what's competitive without running all over creation and wasting my time. That effort isn't worth it. If they don't sell, I'll just sell at an npc, then everyone loses out. Which is what a lot of players are doing because the system is just not worth anyone's time.

Cuyler wrote: »

Actually it is very normal market behavior and is referred to as "shopping around".

And Amazon doesn't make any money at all...

Cuyler wrote: »

I agree. But not in the form of a global AH.

See the beginning of the thread. Please. (The full post is on page 2.)

Because I do make the argument that there needs to be some modicum of balance.

I respect your position that you want to be able to make money and not have items drop to 1g above the npc markets. I want that too. I don't want that controlled by crappy game mechanics that make the system not worth the time (for those of us who have limited play time... same as you refer to about farming the rare items.)

So where's the common ground? I think a good medium is at least being able to sell to everyone within our own alliances. (Again, see page 2 post.) Having alliance markets, keeping goods from other alliances in the 'black market' is a valid half-way point.


I'm editing this to add: @Cuyler‌
You're really using a double standard here. On one hand you're saying that the market is completely fair because anyone willing to put in the effort to run all over creation will find fair prices. But on the other hand, you're saying that really item rarity shouldn't be restricted by drop rate because then, only the people willing to put in the effort to get the items will have them and that's a waste of your precious play time.

Why is your play time for not having to farm rare items more precious than my play time for having to run all over creation to find fair prices?

There's more people interested in fair prices on goods than there are people who just care about getting the most super rare items in the game. Screwing the entire market place of normal buyers to make those super rare items have value for the minority isn't fair, isn't a way to create a sustained economy, and is only having bloating effects (like purple recipes) which ZOS just ends up adjusting later. At best you're making bubbles in the market til a critical mass of people complain.

When the market can be controlled by other mechanism to keep rare item prices high, keep regular item prices fair, and not ***-off half of the players, why not do it?

Super_Sonico wrote: »

So your argument for screwing every other player in the game on having a fair trade economy is that you just want to do the least amount of work to buy your toys??

I by no way implied this. I did however state that either way (nerfing drop rates or running to traders) you need to put in the effort and that the trader system is all inclusive vs nerfing drop rates being accessable only to those with the time.

You may want to re-read that part.

EDIT: If anything wanting the a global AH is wanting to do the least amount of work. And for the record I'm not screwing anyone...