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Define Balance
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JoffyToffy69✭✭✭✭jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »If there were 5 passives and an ultimate for "naked" then yes, I'd expect you to be able to.
I wonder what would that ultimate be?
Sack tap?
Flap tap?
Tea bag?
Flash?
Surprise But Sax?
Fun comes from diversity, balance kills diversity.
Former Empress Serabii1 -
akray21✭✭✭✭✭To answer the title "Define Balance"... No classes, so everyone has access to all abilities...Edited by akray21 on September 5, 2014 3:22PM3 -
yiasemi✭✭✭✭When people achieve balance in their perception. So get out of your jammies at about 6 am and go out to do some Tai Chi. Change first though or people will talk. Do it in game. Just like hang in the air. Do stuff when. And if. For your reasons. Why do so many want to be told by others what to do? I know I do. I fail bad. According to others. (I don't do Tai Chi either actually as I gotta work early). And yet, I happily play. No one burned me at a stake yet, possibly from avoiding the herd of PvP. PvP to your ultimate delight. Just go. Do it. And be awesome dude. And tell me about it amusingly if you come here. And we will lol. What else matters?1 -
dennissomb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Really no such thing as balance (imagine how boring gaming would be if there was) The screams for balance usually follow one of two scenarios. That guy killed me in PvP the game isn't balanced!, or That guy did higher dps then me in Trials, the game isn't balanced!
The only actual scenario for balance would be everyone played the same class, same abilities, same gear, same computer, same internet, you get the idea. The ebb and flow of changes, new gear, new levels, new abilities, you name it is what keeps games fun, and gives the forum plenty of fodder to scream for balance1 -
JoffyToffy69 wrote: »Also FOTM builds will always come and go.
Vamps had a huge temp pop increase, then everyone started doing flame damage to counter.
Sorcs spammed spells, as a result most people have armour traits to counter.
There will forever be constant changes.
But it is up to the player to learn and adapt.
There is no point in doing the same thing repetitively and expect a different outcome. And since you're not getting the desired outcome, it suddenly becomes someone else's fault
You are still missing the point. I suspect that is because you are primarily a PvP'er.
When you only have a very tiny percentage of available builds being viable, you have a problem.
In PvP even if all builds are hypothetically balanced you can still out smart another player. In PvE that ability doesn't exist. Your mechanics have to be able equal to the task of defeating an AI controlled monster.
Again, when only a tiny percentage of builds can do this, you have problems.
PvE players have to scream for greater balance. It has nothing to do with being the ultimate hero and everything to do with expecting to be able to play the game without being forced into a dress.
If people didn't complain about it, we would all still be doing exactly that.I can has typing!1 -
JoffyToffy69✭✭✭✭jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »JoffyToffy69 wrote: »Also FOTM builds will always come and go.
Vamps had a huge temp pop increase, then everyone started doing flame damage to counter.
Sorcs spammed spells, as a result most people have armour traits to counter.
There will forever be constant changes.
But it is up to the player to learn and adapt.
There is no point in doing the same thing repetitively and expect a different outcome. And since you're not getting the desired outcome, it suddenly becomes someone else's fault
You are still missing the point. I suspect that is because you are primarily a PvP'er.
When you only have a very tiny percentage of available builds being viable, you have a problem.
In PvP even if all builds are hypothetically balanced you can still out smart another player. In PvE that ability doesn't exist. Your mechanics have to be able equal to the task of defeating an AI controlled monster.
Again, when only a tiny percentage of builds can do this, you have problems.
PvE players have to scream for greater balance. It has nothing to do with being the ultimate hero and everything to do with expecting to be able to play the game without being forced into a dress.
If people didn't complain about it, we would all still be doing exactly that.
PvE is probably even easier, and requires almost no set builds. Knowing how the AI works is simple. Player's are unpredictable.
Almost all PvE I have done involves kiting mobs, and avoiding AoEs. Pretty simple stuff.
All you need is a good team. Strong tank, solid heals, and good constant dps.
Your build and abilities have almost no real factor hear, unless you are unable to fulfill your roll.
Demanding balance in a PvE aspect would just be a tweak of the AI difficulty, and that will be coming real soon. (I'm not sure if it is 1.4 or another update) but dungeon difficulty will decrease after X amounts of death, making it easier for the casual PvE.
Fun comes from diversity, balance kills diversity.
Former Empress Serabii0 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Fun comes from diversity, balance kills diversity.
Not if you do it right.
If you balance the classes properly, then you have more fun and more diversity. This isn't the same as saying every class should be able to do every role, just that overall there should be balance.
No one class should be superior to all the others, this kills diversity, balance is the attempt to make every class viable.
Each class should have a class it's superior to and one it's inferior to, the remaining class should be approximatel equal, although maybe for different reasons.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule1 -
RazielSR✭✭✭✭✭Balance is exactly wath TES does not offer.Edited by RazielSR on September 5, 2014 4:04PM1 -
JoffyToffy69✭✭✭✭Balance = equality.
Equality means every one is the same. Which means conformity.
If there are a few differences, however minuscule, that is no longer equal, therefore it is unbalanced.
Balance can not be achieved with diversity.
True balance would become boring.
If A can beat B, but is weak to C.
B is weak to A, but strong against C
C is weak to B, but strong against A
This would become extremely boring really fast. Its the same reason why we don't play rock, paper, scissors hour after hour. It get dull real quick.
eso offers the ability to counter your weakness and defend your self. Become sustainable.
It's simply illogical to be good against everything and weak to none.
If you're failing, change your tactics, pvp or pve, its knowing how to use your skills.
Some classes do more dps, others health regen and survival. Its up to you to manage it. All classes have the potential and have been proven to workFun comes from diversity, balance kills diversity.
Former Empress Serabii1 -
Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
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There is no competitive PVE, it is an illusion made to make people feel good about themselves. Illusion since something in virtual world does not really mean anything on personal level, only character level
PVP is anothrer case but teamwork and stratefy make every build at least somewhat viable, just have to get over "Me" mentality and start thinking about "What we can do as team". I have always been pro OP class/builds in PVP because they just generate "Boss" level challenge on human level of playing which makes even more feeling of accomplishment as a team.
>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<4 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Balance to me is when you can make every type of weapon or armor useful for a build that can be used in an optimal setup in endgame.
I don't expect Heavy armor to provide equal dps numbers as light armor... But I do expect the extra survival you gain from Heavy to be proportional to the dps you lost from light... and currently that is not even close.1 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭Balance in a PVP enviroment:
-Numbers are equal. (population)
-Rock>paper>Scissors>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Balance describes the state when the standard deviation of a given tier list, generated from every class/builds mean estimated win ratio against any other class/build, is near or at 0.
Using rock/paper/scissors as an example, every 'build' or entity in the tier list has a win ratio of 1/3. There is no variance in the data set, therefore the standard deviation is 0 and balance is achieved. Hooray! That was easy enough.
The problem in ESO's and most MMO's case is what constitutes a class or build and therefore an entity in the list. However, even with a limited sample of possible builds, only using class, attribute focus, weapon and armor choice as variables (4x3x6x3 = 216 builds), we should be able to have a good approximation of ESO's balance score.
As lots of people like to point out, absolute balance is very unlikely to achieve. However, this is hardly an argument in how to construct RPG systems, as reducing imbalances is still beneficial, even if absolute balance cannot be achieved. Think of strange attractors in chaos theory. Well, at least I am.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1