Define Balance

Kos

Many players debate balance issues, but how exactly should the balance be defined in the game such as ESO? For example is it balanced when heavy armor paired with 2 handed weapon deals as much damage as light armor and staff? How about light armor and 2 handed weapon? Then we add class abilities to the mix, and then the racials... I wonder if anyone could make it work, I know I could not. Even if I take two identical builds/race/class combos playing perfectly is it not the player who makes the first move the one to win?

thelordoffelines

Balance will be when u see zerg balls in pvp spamming whirlwind instead of impulse. At least that's what I think.

JoffyToffy69

Balance will be when filthy casuals leave, or go to console haha

Phinix1

JoffyToffy69 wrote: »

Balance will be when filthy casuals leave, or go to console haha

If they are so filthy, why don't you show how big you are and make the slightest effort to clean them?

Sharee

Balance is when all abilities, all armor types, all weapons etc. are used by the educated playerbase in equal measure.

(educated because someone using something underpowered out of ignorance does not count)

Martinus72

Balance is a Holy Grail of every MMO but not one has achieved that in history yet...

Ninnghizhidda

Balance is probably impossible to define, and usually it is an ongoing process that takes years if not forever, in a MMO. Maybe it is just chasing a chimera to try and have the "perfect balance".

It is however far easier to understand what is not balance. And we have very good examples in ESO lingering for several months. Prime example is the dominance of the "bathrobe & broomstick" configuration, for reasons that have been extensively analysed in a myriad of threads and posts (and still somehow not actually addressed by ZoS, except vaguely).

As I said I consider the "perfect balance" an impossible task. However, a good game and a good dev team will offer the best possible environment and solutions that eliminate the gross and huge differences and make players feel that particular play styles and builds are functional to an acceptable degree.

That way everyone is more or less happy, something that is not the case with the current (and past, and sadly future, as it seems) state of affairs in ESO. I believe any reasonable player would accept a "difference" of some percentage between a "pro" and a "gimped" configuration (if we have to have these) but not the immensely inflated advantage we have now, favouring the "cool stuff" (of course, the "bathrobe & broomstick" it is).

JoffyToffy69

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

JoffyToffy69 wrote: »

Balance will be when filthy casuals leave, or go to console haha

If they are so filthy, why don't you show how big you are and make the slightest effort to clean them?

Don't want to get my hands dirty haha


But seriously balance is impossible.
simply rock, paper, scissors.

Everyone here complains that rock should be able to cut paper just like scissors do. And paper should be able to take on scissors.

IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

I see plenty of mix of armour on the battle field. Some I can handle, others a challenge, and others devastating. I find shield bashing more annoying then dks with staffs.
I just find dks tricky in general (so much health regen!)
But that's not the entire pvp base. There is a huge mix and I seem to manage as I use my brain.



Rock, paper, scissors

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Closest way I can describe it is that any race/class/weapon line/armor/gear combination should have at least one way to perform the function of their choosing, to within a "reasonable" level of any other.

For argument's sake, lets say in PvE you have your two characters. Both should be able to output within (again for arguments sake) 5% total damage of each other in a boss fight. They should also be able to take a relative beating whether that is by armor or a spell.

They aren't 100% balanced but they are at least competitive with each other. When this happens across casters, melee and bow wearing a mix of armor types, you have "relative" balance.

Balance is always going to be relative rather than literal. It's just a matter of tweaking over time to satisfy.

Sarenia

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Easy to define, improbable to perfect.

Draxuul

thelordoffelines wrote: »

Balance will be when u see zerg balls in pvp spamming whirlwind instead of impulse. At least that's what I think.

Exactly ....

Which means that this game should not aim to be balanced but rather keep offering multiple ways to achieve success and let players make the choices
for themselves .

The unwillingness that people have to fail at anything and blaming Zenimax when they choose to make a build that fails is pathetic.

In a community where every player loves different ways of playing , where every player`s own skills as a player is different , where everyone sets their key bindings differently , where every player`s ability to react to all the different situations is different . How can anyone expect to achieve balance and expect all the different build possibilities to offer the exact same potential as the next one.

There is no doubt in my mind that even if the game was perfectly balanced , which would suck by the way , those people who complain right now about the imbalance of the game would still complain everytime they lose a fight instead of accepting the sad reality that their oponent was a better player . Because i`m sad to admit that this is just how the majority of the human race is like.

I`m gonna make a comparison with a real life scenario. I used to work in a bowling place and we had several leagues of golden age people who came to play bowling everyday.

Now you wouldn`t believe the amount of complaints that we were receiving everytime someone failed at getting a strike .( Making all the pins fall )

People would claim that the boards were loose and made the ball deviate , or that the pins were tied too tightly or that the rubber rings around the pins were too old and needed to be changed .

All of that instead of simply accepting the sad reality that they simply sucked at it .

And this applies to everything , people simply do NOT accept failure no matter what.

It`s sad , so very sad.

Draxuul

Guppet

It's what stops you falling over.

Uisi

Balance means that a nightblade in medium armor with two thin daggers weighs as much as a dragonknight in heavy armor with a giant maul.

Knootewoot

Balance for me is team balance and not class balance. It is impossible to balance classes and keep the game fun. there are always OP classes and weak classes. Just play what you like. If you want to balance classes they should create one class.

Ninnghizhidda

Draxuul wrote: »

make a build that fails

I have only kept this little part and not going to comment on your reasoning. but this little part reflects very well the whole situation. This is where "balance" is absent. Not to a small degree, which is acceptable and more or less expected, but to a huge degree, which of course is unacceptable, breaks a game and makes it fail.

A good game, with a large and talented team and a huge budget behind it, not to mention the great heritage it was built upon (The Elder Scrolls series) should not let this happen, under no circumstances.

There should be no "fail build". Even the "fun builds", deliberately chosen as a "joke" should be viable to some degree, and in any case not useless. Especially so when the prime concern of ESO has been (supposedly) to offer exactly this great diversity. But, you can not offer diversity when a build one chooses is a "fail" one.

This is the fundamental problem that certain people seem to be unable to understand. In ESO we have not one, not two, but many builds and choices that ultimately prove to be "fail". Just because their counterparts perform so much better. Not a little better, quite a lot better.

When you have this in a world class game, what you tell people is: go with this build, because if you go with that build you will be severely limiting yourself, ruin your performance and gaming experience. Totally unacceptable, no serious designer of this quality and stature should had ever let that happen. Ever.

AshySamurai

Uisi wrote: »

Balance means that a nightblade in medium armor with two thin daggers weighs as much as a dragonknight in heavy armor with a giant maul.

And then begins: how someone in leather with two knifes can block big 2H sword? Or how knife can do as much damage, as 2H axe? And so on...

Balance in MMO is a complicate thing and it unreachable in one step. IMO when you gain advantage, you shoud also gain some disadvantage. In that way everyone will be strong in one thing and weak in another. I think it shoud encourage grouping and team work.

Draxuul

Try to think about how a chess game works. Both players start with the exact same amount of pieces. Same amount of peons, knights, fools, towers, one queen each and one king each.

Now i`m sure everyone can agree with the fact that this is a perfectly balanced game right ??

Now back to ESO, everyone in ESO has access to exactly the same skills, everyone has access to magicka and stamina, everyone has access to every class and every race.

Back to chess , the choices that you make throughout the game will determine whether you win or lose and there is no way anyone can deny that if you lose at chess, the only one to blame is yourself.

There is no developer to blame when you fail so whether you decide to blame it on the fact that your opponent had more practice than you did or that he used a lame strategy or anything else you might come up with , it all comes down to the same thing in the end. YOU were not good enough to beat him.

In chess some of the pieces are stronger than others with the queen being the strongest and the peon being the weakest, but if you`re smart enough you can kill the queen using a peon.

In ESO, the game itself is very different but the same things apply. Some abilities are stronger than others but if you use them wisely and make a smart build, you can beat someone who`s using a stronger build. It has everything to do with how you choose to use the abilities that you chose to slot in.

you can`t possibly expect Zenimax to ever be able to make it possible to simply randomly choose 5 abilities and still offer you the same chance to win against someone who spent hours upon hours trying out different things and coming out with the best possible build for him. But regardless, you COULD still win against him with your random build. He could make mistakes while fighting and waste his ultimate and/or fall off a cliff or a keep wall or maybe you just got lucky. There just are wayy too many variables as to what can happen during a fight .

And i will finish by saying that , claiming that this game is unbalanced is to basicaly claim that there is no such thing as player skill. That there is no such thing as being smart and that there is no such thing as a good or a bad choice.

You`re asking Zenimax to not only make all abilities equal but to also turn all of it`s players into robots.

In other words , you`re asking the impossible.

Draxxul

R0M2K

JoffyToffy69 wrote: »

Balance will be when filthy casuals leave, or go to console haha

Then you will be crying the game is dead and empty.

AshySamurai

@Draxuul‌, you saying right things, but I cant agree with you for 100%. You analogy with chess is briliant. Really, I like it. But here is my 2 cents: chess - when you start, both of you have equal chanses to win (and it's fair). ESO - when you decide to be not a mage - well, this isn't a winner's strategy. And all forced to use mostly magika -> enhant for magika and mostly wear robe and other dress. Noone asks ZOS to make all skills equal (not me for sure), but make other than magika builds viable and have the same chanses to win.

JoffyToffy69

The chess analogy is perfect!
It's up to the player to gain some intelligence and figure out how to play.
Everyone has the same options, and anyone can defeat anyone if done correctly (peon can kill a queen).

and of course their will be fail builds. I can't run nude with a dagger and expect to heal as much as a healer who is adequately equipped.

And a dk with sword and shield can easily drop a mage, and a NB can assassinate people easily if done right. But you simply can't expect to win every battle without using your head and putting some effort in

Iago

You wanna balance pvp here's how you do it.


Once you enter PVP all players and NPCs have one hit point each, and all abilities do one hit point in damage. Then its just a matter of who hits first.

MongooseOne

Draxuul wrote: »

Try to think about how a chess game works. Both players start with the exact same amount of pieces. Same amount of peons, knights, fools, towers, one queen each and one king each.

Now i`m sure everyone can agree with the fact that this is a perfectly balanced game right ??

Now back to ESO, everyone in ESO has access to exactly the same skills, everyone has access to magicka and stamina, everyone has access to every class and every race.

Back to chess , the choices that you make throughout the game will determine whether you win or lose and there is no way anyone can deny that if you lose at chess, the only one to blame is yourself.

There is no developer to blame when you fail so whether you decide to blame it on the fact that your opponent had more practice than you did or that he used a lame strategy or anything else you might come up with , it all comes down to the same thing in the end. YOU were not good enough to beat him.

In chess some of the pieces are stronger than others with the queen being the strongest and the peon being the weakest, but if you`re smart enough you can kill the queen using a peon.

In ESO, the game itself is very different but the same things apply. Some abilities are stronger than others but if you use them wisely and make a smart build, you can beat someone who`s using a stronger build. It has everything to do with how you choose to use the abilities that you chose to slot in.

you can`t possibly expect Zenimax to ever be able to make it possible to simply randomly choose 5 abilities and still offer you the same chance to win against someone who spent hours upon hours trying out different things and coming out with the best possible build for him. But regardless, you COULD still win against him with your random build. He could make mistakes while fighting and waste his ultimate and/or fall off a cliff or a keep wall or maybe you just got lucky. There just are wayy too many variables as to what can happen during a fight .

And i will finish by saying that , claiming that this game is unbalanced is to basicaly claim that there is no such thing as player skill. That there is no such thing as being smart and that there is no such thing as a good or a bad choice.

You`re asking Zenimax to not only make all abilities equal but to also turn all of it`s players into robots.

In other words , you`re asking the impossible.

Draxxul

I suppose this is too long to be my signature...

kijima

Balance in an MMO is always going to be difficult.

Ragefist

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

from what I can gather from this a definition of balance would be something like:

Wherein there are a reasonable number of decisions amongst the myriad possible that are 'smart' and that the 'smart' options don't differ in power too drastically.

ers101284b14_ESO

1/4 think stick and dress is overpowered
1/4 think dragonknigh is op'd

1/4 think Templar is op'd
1/4 have no problem playing NB

That's balance

ItsGlaive

Kos wrote: »

Many players debate balance issues, but how exactly should the balance be defined in the game such as ESO? For example is it balanced when heavy armor paired with 2 handed weapon deals as much damage as light armor and staff? How about light armor and 2 handed weapon? Then we add class abilities to the mix, and then the racials... I wonder if anyone could make it work, I know I could not. Even if I take two identical builds/race/class combos playing perfectly is it not the player who makes the first move the one to win?

Balance is having a number of options, all equally viable that can compete in all of the content, thus eliminating the need for hoards of skirts and sticks.

JoffyToffy69

Xabien wrote: »

Kos wrote: »

Many players debate balance issues, but how exactly should the balance be defined in the game such as ESO? For example is it balanced when heavy armor paired with 2 handed weapon deals as much damage as light armor and staff? How about light armor and 2 handed weapon? Then we add class abilities to the mix, and then the racials... I wonder if anyone could make it work, I know I could not. Even if I take two identical builds/race/class combos playing perfectly is it not the player who makes the first move the one to win?

Balance is having a number of options, all equally viable that can compete in all of the content, thus eliminating the need for hoards of skirts and sticks.

So I can run nude with a dagger and be viable with your logic? After all, I don't want to wear a skirt or use a stick.

Shaun98ca2

Sarenia wrote: »

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Easy to define, improbable to perfect.

NO NO NO NO NO

Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock

Funny thing to note Yahoo wouldn't even accept Rock, Paper, Scissors it instantly addd Lizard, Spock lol

Aett_Thorn

The biggest problem with most games that I've played more recently, including ESO, is that they base PvP on a rock-paper-scissor approach, but then forget to include paper. So rock crushes scissors, but nothing is there to beat rock.

Guppet

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

The biggest problem with most games that I've played more recently, including ESO, is that they base PvP on a rock-paper-scissor approach, but then forget to include paper. So rock crushes scissors, but nothing is there to beat rock.

Nah it's paper and rock we have.

Logically paper is light
Rock is Heavy
scissors must be Medium

Medium needs to beat light, heavy needs to beat medium, light needs to beat heavy.

A rogue would chew up a Mage, a warrior would chew up a rogue and a Mage would chew up a warrior. Kind of makes sense.

I would actually be happy with that balance. It would be infinately better than paper coated steel.