Realism or Balance ?

Draxuul · September 2014

Before you cast your vote please read.

Would you preffer a game that focuses mostly on balance which pretty much means a game that at some point or another will be forced to add abilities that do not make any kind of sense whatsoever .

Or a game that mainly focuses on realism in order to offer their player the best experience of what a magical world could be like without drowning too deeply into non sense??

Some example:
-do you like the idea of giving your mellee characters a whirlwind attack just so they can keep up with AoE spamming mages.
- Or do you like a game that gives mellee characters incredible running speeds so they can keep up with a teleporting mage ?
- Or that gives mellee characters the ability to buff themselves using warcries so they can keep up with mages buffing spells?
- Or that give mellee character the ability to deal damage from a distance simply by screaming at their opponent so they can deal some damage to a mage who just rooted them in place and is now casting fireballs at him.

Now this game already gives everyone the potential to use magic and it is up to the player to decide whether or not to use it . But there are still countless complaints from people allover the forums claiming that the game is suffering from major balancing issues.

So i know there will be a very large number of people who will vote for balance .

But i`m very curious to know of the amount of people who will vote for realism.
As far as i`m concerned , i vote realism any day of the week, any week of the month and any month of the year without thinking twice about it .

I preffer a game that gives it`s players the oppertunity to create their own balance rather than a game that makes this decision for them.

My main character uses both magicka and stamina, Magic mostly for heals and a little for CC and Stamina mostly for damage and the occasional knock back and of course the CC breaking , blocking , rolling etc...

I know for a fact that this would get me rejected from many groups simply because i don`t have as much DPS as a pure DPS build , i don`t have enough magicka to be a main healer and i don`t use a shield so i cannot taunt so i can`t be a main tank even though i have a lot of armor . But my character is very well balanced for duels and solo PvE and i love him .

Now that you know my thoughts on the subject, feel free to cast your vote and share your own thoughts .

bertenburnyb16_ESO · September 2014

wait wut?
If you want realism like in medieval warfare with swords then your in the wrong game I fear, try War of the roses, thats more the game for you
this is fantasy, with alot of magic, so I dont see the purpose of this poll

Tavore1138 · September 2014

I love a somewhat balanced game but i don`t like non sense. (Unable to decide)

Prefer 'able to deal with nuance' to your wording.

Classes need to be balanced in terms of what they can achieve overall but abilities do not need to be like for like in the way you describe.

Although comparing whirlwind with impulse spam suggests a lack of understanding.

david271749 · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

"Realism," said the wizard to the talking cat.

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

wait wut?
If you want realism like in medieval warfare with swords then your in the wrong game I fear, try War of the roses, thats more the game for you
this is fantasy, with alot of magic, so I dont see the purpose of this poll

I played Chivalry and i enjoyed it for a time but i got tired of being killed from behind by teammates who just couldn`t resist swinging their sword on a guy i was already engaged in battle against resulting in my teammate killing both of us and not caring one bit .

I don`t like war of the roses .

And the argument you made simply proves you didn`t understand what i said at all.
I know this is a world with magic . but i want the game to remain somewhat realistic so that it can provide the best experience possible of what it could be like in a magical world without drowning too deeply into non sense.

I know magic is not realistic but fantasy doesn`t have to mean that everything is acceptable. There are two ways to achieve perfect balance, either you limit a mage`s potential so they don`t overpower the mellee builds OR you give the mellee builds abilities that can match all of the mage`s spells .

Both ways annoy me as hell.

Draxuul

Tavore1138 · September 2014

I love a somewhat balanced game but i don`t like non sense. (Unable to decide)

No you give each class unique abilities that allow them all to be different but equally viable.

I do not want a NB that can cast a ring of fire, but one that can toss an arc of poisoned throwing knives is something that can do something similar.

It is about making all classes able to contend in PvP while ensuring each has it's own flavour.

Then on top of that you can add the equipment and guild based options which anyone can use to give people flexibility.

The 'realism' comes in understanding that in a high fantasy environment not only mages get to toss magic around and even a mage an carry a sword.

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

It is about making all classes able to contend in PvP while ensuring each has it's own flavour.

Then on top of that you can add the equipment and guild based options which anyone can use to give people flexibility.

The 'realism' comes in understanding that in a high fantasy environment not only mages get to toss magic around and even a mage an carry a sword.

I certainly cannot disagree with that , especialy in a game like ESO where everyone has access to magic. Yet a lot of people limit themselves by not using it and then come here claiming that the game is unbalanced .

But if someone was to choose to not use magic then no he shouldn`t be able to toss magic around nor have access to the same potential as someone who did not limit himself in such a way.

People need to accept that limiting your own character to using stamina exclusively is bound to limit that character`s potential at some point .

Dedicated builds is usually good for grouping but for PvP and soloing , hybrids have always had a certain advantage over purists because of their versatility.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

I am really sorry but as far as I can tell your concept of realism is completely based on your own personal opinion as to what you think should do more damage.

You are under the impression that magic should do more damage than melee weapons. A fireball of indeterminable size and ferocity should do more damage than a sword or an axe or a mace.

You also say that players need to use magicka to get the most out of their builds and that using stamina exclusively is binding a character to an arbitrary limit. Then why is it that if you use only magicka you don't run into the same limitations? Lack of balance.

Again, the only support for this idea is an opinion that magicka should reign supreme.

I can appreciate that you most likely favor the idea of a mage of immense power wiping out a battlefield. That is a really cool idea but the reality is in an MMORPG, a genre of game that relies on combinations of skills, abilities and gear.

Stamina shouldn't be able to be be used exclusively? Fine, give magicka the same limitation. Make it do less damage if you don't occasionally throw in a stamina skill

Realism is not a valid argument for one stat overpowering another especially in a fantasy game.

If you want to argue arbitrary numbers, from where I'm standing if a 6ft, 250lb warrior hits you with a greatsword you die, end of story.

Anvos · September 2014

I love a somewhat balanced game but i don`t like non sense. (Unable to decide)

Not sure why its unrealistic for warriors to use pseudo magic as were right off the heels of the Akavari invasion, and one of their core abilities was the Kai, which is like the Thuum except not needing dragon souls to learn it effectively.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

Anvos wrote: »

Not sure why its unrealistic for warriors to use pseudo magic as were right off the heels of the Akavari invasion, and one of their core abilities was the Kai, which is like the Thuum except not needing dragon souls to learn it effectively.

I don't think the fact that warriors can use magic is the problem. It's that they have to

Btw, the kai is a cool and lore friendly option for future lore-friendly skill balancing

kieso · September 2014

[snip] realism and balance aren't mutually exclusive.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

AshySamurai · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

You're talking about world of magik (so ironic), gods and dragons. All is real here until it's obey the laws of this world. So, for me balance is more important in this game.

Xeres14 · September 2014

I love a somewhat balanced game but i don`t like non sense. (Unable to decide)

Realism in a virtual world is not relevant IMO. If that were the case, when your character died you lost your account and would be forced to uninstall.

Xehmnus_Rayne · September 2014

lol Nonsense... Half the game is "nonsense"!

In my opinion, a typical mage can take down enemies from afar with high damage spells and, perhaps, some CC woven in. Assuming they needed it. BUT if a big, strong warrior guy, managed to break through that CC and dodge those spells and get close to the mage, that mage is dead since they're typically squishy as all get out with their light armor and probably just wet themselves when the warrior guy got close.

With all the options and weapons and skills in this game though, that is no longer something one is concerned about. If it is, it is pretty rare... Those in light armor can reach armor soft cap easily with either glyphs, spells, or even a mix of the two while you can have warriors in plate dishing out magic as well as their melee skills in combat. Not really saying this is a problem, but with all the options people have at their disposal, and all the skills and weapons and whatnot in the game, balance can be rather difficult. A lot of builds are viable still, but with how super powered some are compared to others, the less viable builds kinda get tossed to the wayside left alone on the side of the road on a rainy day like a box full of abandoned puppies.

I would like to see a full on stamina user be just as competitive as a full on magicka user in terms of DPS or viability. I know there's a lot of magicka based stuff in the game, but is mister big strong warrior guy left on the bench while the midgets in their bathrobes get all the glory?

Crumpy · September 2014

Realism lol!

akray21 · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

Please stop using the word 'realism' in reference to a fantasy MMO. It is getting very annoying.

bertenburnyb16_ESO · September 2014

Draxuul wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

wait wut?
If you want realism like in medieval warfare with swords then your in the wrong game I fear, try War of the roses, thats more the game for you
this is fantasy, with alot of magic, so I dont see the purpose of this poll

I played Chivalry and i enjoyed it for a time but i got tired of being killed from behind by teammates who just couldn`t resist swinging their sword on a guy i was already engaged in battle against resulting in my teammate killing both of us and not caring one bit .

I don`t like war of the roses .

And the argument you made simply proves you didn`t understand what i said at all.
I know this is a world with magic . but i want the game to remain somewhat realistic so that it can provide the best experience possible of what it could be like in a magical world without drowning too deeply into non sense.

I know magic is not realistic but fantasy doesn`t have to mean that everything is acceptable. There are two ways to achieve perfect balance, either you limit a mage`s potential so they don`t overpower the mellee builds OR you give the mellee builds abilities that can match all of the mage`s spells .

Both ways annoy me as hell.

Draxuul

well thats very vague,
what I mean with that is, whats acceptable for one person as "realistic in a magical world" could be totally against what someone else thinks is. so still, I dont see the use of this poll

Nocturnalis · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

Not sure if this is an example of "balance" or "realism" you are giving as an example... But don't these exist in the game already?

Draxuul wrote: »

Some example:
-do you like the idea of giving your mellee characters a whirlwind attack just so they can keep up with AoE spamming mages.
Whirlwind (Steel Tornado) is in dual wield.
- Or do you like a game that gives mellee characters incredible running speeds so they can keep up with a teleporting mage ?
There are charge your target abilities under the weapon skill trees to close distances - Shield Charge (Invasion), Critical Charge (Stampede).
- Or that gives mellee characters the ability to buff themselves using warcries so they can keep up with mages buffing spells?
But there are various melee character buffs... Mark Target, Haste, Spiked Armor, Dragon Blood, Reflective Scales, Molten Weapons, Obsidian Shield.
- Or that give mellee character the ability to deal damage from a distance simply by screaming at their opponent so they can deal some damage to a mage who just rooted them in place and is now casting fireballs at him.
Use a bow, or if you are an NB, most of the siphoning skill tree is ranged...

Yes, they are not implemented exactly as you specify, but it seems you want a different "flavor" of rule set for the skills rather than "realism".

More "realistic" is such a nebulous term in video games... especially if you are making the point that you didn't like Chivalry - would you have like "realism" in Chivalry if friendly fire was turned off?

I guess I am missing the point at which you draw the line in the sand on realism?

Or is this a high vs low fantasy argument?

istateres · September 2014

I just don`t care and i wish people would stop talking about this

Is there a problem? Yes. What is it? That you're not a Min/Maxer. Get over it and enjoy the game. Find a group who enjoys playing, not maximizing their DPS; and don't EVER use the words realism and magical world in the same sentance again!

Samadhi · September 2014

Draxuul wrote: »

...
-do you like the idea of giving your mellee characters a whirlwind attack just so they can keep up with AoE spamming mages.
- Or do you like a game that gives mellee characters incredible running speeds so they can keep up with a teleporting mage ?
- Or that gives mellee characters the ability to buff themselves using warcries so they can keep up with mages buffing spells?
- Or that give mellee character the ability to deal damage from a distance simply by screaming at their opponent so they can deal some damage to a mage who just rooted them in place and is now casting fireballs at him.
...

So voting in favour or Realism would mean that all of these Mage capabilities would be completely removed from game, right?
Mages would basically become scholars who spend their time reading books and hiring melee warriors to protect them from other melee warriors.

DragonLane555 · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

@Draxuul‌

Draxuul wrote: »

Before you cast your vote please read.

Would you preffer a game that focuses mostly on balance which pretty much means a game that at some point or another will be forced to add abilities that do not make any kind of sense whatsoever .

Or a game that mainly focuses on realism in order to offer their player the best experience of what a magical world could be like without drowning too deeply into non sense??

Some example:
-do you like the idea of giving your mellee characters a whirlwind attack just so they can keep up with AoE spamming mages.
- Or do you like a game that gives mellee characters incredible running speeds so they can keep up with a teleporting mage ?
- Or that gives mellee characters the ability to buff themselves using warcries so they can keep up with mages buffing spells?
- Or that give mellee character the ability to deal damage from a distance simply by screaming at their opponent so they can deal some damage to a mage who just rooted them in place and is now casting fireballs at him.

Now this game already gives everyone the potential to use magic and it is up to the player to decide whether or not to use it . But there are still countless complaints from people allover the forums claiming that the game is suffering from major balancing issues.

So i know there will be a very large number of people who will vote for balance .

But i`m very curious to know of the amount of people who will vote for realism.
As far as i`m concerned , i vote realism any day of the week, any week of the month and any month of the year without thinking twice about it .

I preffer a game that gives it`s players the oppertunity to create their own balance rather than a game that makes this decision for them.

My main character uses both magicka and stamina, Magic mostly for heals and a little for CC and Stamina mostly for damage and the occasional knock back and of course the CC breaking , blocking , rolling etc...

I know for a fact that this would get me rejected from many groups simply because i don`t have as much DPS as a pure DPS build , i don`t have enough magicka to be a main healer and i don`t use a shield so i cannot taunt so i can`t be a main tank even though i have a lot of armor . But my character is very well balanced for duels and solo PvE and i love him .

Now that you know my thoughts on the subject, feel free to cast your vote and share your own thoughts .

I'd be all for realism if that meant that when I hit you with my Two Handed Sword you just died!

Go look up the show Deadliest Warrior with William Wallace vs Shaka Zulu. In it the team showing off William Wallace's weapons uses a Claymore on 5 heads, to see how fast you could kill 5 man with it. The Swordsman makes one swing, and cuts all 5 heads, and the iron bar holding the last head in place, in half.

So yeah if I can kill you in one swing then you can keep all your magic fluff.....but for some reason I get the feeling you don't want real realism, you just want mages to be uber.

Greybarren · September 2014

Realism -

: concern for fact or reality and rejection of the impractical and visionary

: the theory or practice of fidelity in art and literature to nature or to real life and to accurate representation without idealization

Remove the magic system completely, then you can have the state of realism.

... and then this would no longer be an Elder Scrolls game. Further leaps towards realism would remove it from standard fantasy altogether. It no longer becomes a game, but transforms into a simulation.

Sykotical · September 2014

If I wanted to play as Merlin I'd play Battlemage. I don't care what the haters say. This IS a TES game which means I'm going to play it how I want.

Though I'm not a fan of the classes and classic group roles. Hopefully spellcrafting will provide some much needed diversity.

The reason balance is important in this game is because once word get's out that your flaming bat swarm is op, that's what everyone with no self respect is going to plug into their action bar and suddenly it's a one button game. Honestly, I don't get why everyone complains about the limited bar space when they only have one move (equals hyperbole, but I'm guessing it's 50/50 on the bar space issue.) But seriously, I recorded a stack of ADs running through our flanks picking off smaller groups with their one ring of fire. $:\$

Now, this so-called magical "realism" is important too. You're just stuck on being an omnipotent wizard. All the moves you want removed from the game ( @Nocturnalis named them for you) because they aren't real enough to exist in a fantasy mmorpg actually have more merit than everyone running around in cloth robes expecting to survive even a bit of shrapnel during a siege. More importantly, if you want realism, up the difficulty to obtain (not to mention master) new skills and every skill that would realistically be fatal should be able to be leveled up based on usage to dish out the same damage. Of course, abilities not used should ATROPHY. Then we might see utility spells gain the spotlight and have some strategy on the battle front instead of rushing in to spam and die until everyone else has to go to live their life for a few hours.

SirAndy · September 2014

Draxuul wrote: »

Realism or Balance ?

Yes ...

AngryNord · September 2014

Realistically, it should be possible to strike a balance between these things.

kitsinni · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

I don't see how we can even really talk about realism in a game like this. If we are going for realism how can a Vampire that is weak to fire even be a DK and hold a whip made out of fire, breath out first while they are spamming a stick that shoots fire in all directions? Not to mention that magic in general or being a vampire or anything else for that matter all defies any sense of realism.

If you want realism play FPS like COD where you can one shot anyone with a sniper shot above the knee but have to shoot the dog three times to kill it and the dog kills you with a bite on the arm .. wait never mind.

Sarenia · September 2014

I just don't think it's a black and white segregation of "realism" and "balance".

Think of it as a D&D campaign, and the developers as our DMs. It's up to them to decide the balance between high fantasy creativity, real world physics, and necessary game mechanics with the tools they have at hand. It all blends together.

AngryNord wrote: »

Realistically, it should be possible to strike a balance between these things.

Pretty much this.

Stx · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

I am a huge fan of realism, even in fantasy games. I hate it when people say something naive like "Well its a fantasy game with wizards so nothing is realistic!". Please. Every fantasy universe has its own laws of what is realistic or not. Immersion is important when playing a game like TES.

Even then, I voted for balance, because to me, in an MMO, there is no worse feeling than making your character how you want it, then finding out that you cannot use him for anything in the endgame, because the path you chose just plain sucks in the game (due to poor balancing).

In order for a game to be good, it needs to have balance, otherwise there won't be any meaningful competition... or everyone will be running around with the same exact setup, and the game will get stale and boring. (we are seeing this to an extent with mages and staves).

Resueht · September 2014

I just don`t care and i wish people would stop talking about this

If you want more realism Light Armor should provide no resistance to me 2H axe. That's all I'm going to say on this ridiculousness.

GnatB · September 2014

I just don`t care and i wish people would stop talking about this

Both.

If there's no "realistic" way to balance a magical ability vs the physical, (which I doubt) then simply don't implement said magical ability.

That said, what's so unrealistic about a "whirlwind" attack?

Personally, one of my biggest pet peeves in many games is when light armor provides more protection against spells than heavy. (expecially in games where magic is commonplace such as this one) I'm sorry, metal will protect better than cloth. Stick a piece of metal over a candle for a second. Stick a piece of cloth over it.

Odds are the metal is a bit warm, the cloth is on fire. Pretty sure I'd rather have warm armor than burning armor.

Metal armor would work as a Faraday cage vs lighting. Sure, the armor would heat up, but at least the lightning wouldn't actually hit the person inside. Unlike cloth/leather, which would provide no protection at all.

IMO, fixing this "issue" would certainly help make heavy armor far more viable. Add spell resist by default. (remove it from light) And either a learnable passive (or by default) resistance to magical secondary effects.

That guy in full plate? Yeah, harder to slow with cold, not gonna catch on fire, and lightning isn't going to concus him/put off balance.

Nefrast · September 2014

I think that the answer to this question is not relevant for this game experience. These are questions which must be answered before starting to implement a game as they have great impact on everything.

Right now players can choose between (classic) mages, knights, marksmen, assassin and players usually do not want other players to dominate the game, be it in PVE or PVP, just because of the class they selected.

ESO must try to balance the classes, everything else I see as a resource monster with an outcome of a complete different game experience and not very compatible with the brand.

Anyhow I would love role-playing games where magic is really powerful - teleportation, instant communication, mass destruction on vast scales, mind control, control gravity, mass creation etc. I would fancy that would lead to a world where magic users reign supreme or are hunt and killed on sight because of their perceived threat, probably both. It could lead to a very interesting world - and completely different then Elder Scrolls. Such a background will have a big impact on the game play. Why should anyone want to play as a knight without all the power if a magic-user could play like a doll with the knight's body? In such a setting either everyone plays a mage or nobody. Or you restrict the play to that of magic apprentices which need another 20 years of training to be able to level a city on their own. Anyway, it will lead to a total different game than anything we will every see under the Elder Scrolls brand.

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