Stam has very few options compared with magicka, here are some suggestions to fix that =)

Sethriel · August 2014

First, how many options do you have with magicka available on each bar?

3 Class trees
1 Weapon tree, destro or resto (at any one given time)
2 Guild Trees, Undaunted and Mages

Giving a total of 6 COMPLETE skill trees available to magicka users at any given time.

(Not counting Allience war or Vamp/WW because they don't give much option atm, and there are equal amounts of both stam and magicka in those.)

How many options do you have with Stam on one bar at any given time?
1 Weapon tree
1 Guild tree, which scales poorly off stam and only fully effects deadra and undead.

Giving a total of 2 COMPLETE skill trees available to stamina users at any one time, and only 1 of those trees are reliable to actually work all the time.

If you wanna get the most out of a stam build, you need to use stamina based abilities, you simply don't the options that magicka builds have.

In an upcoming update, spell crafting is going to join the ranks of options available to magicka users. This is literally going to add hundreds of abilities to magicka at ANY given time. I think its pretty obvious that stamina needs more options to be interesting and fun to play.

So, how do we fix this?

Suggestion No.1
When both Thieves Guild AND Dark Brotherhood is added to the game, make them both stamina focused trees. While this is a log way off, it would go a long way in bridging the gap between the options available.

Suggestion No.2
Re-work fighters guild tree so that its useful ALL the time, not mainly against undead and deadra

Suggestion No.3
Re-work undaunted so that its stamina based. Yes, we know its in the process of being re-worked, so why not base it from stamina?

Suggestion No.4
Add a new skill tree or ability for stamina that allows you to chose ONE magicka based spell/ability, and deal damage (or increased utility) based on your stamina stats and pay for it using stamina instead of magicka.
This suggestion is one I personally like very much, because it would enable stamina users to have MUCH greater flexibility with their builds. I would suggest it would make a good skill tree, with options to passively increase the utility/damage by placing points into the passive options. This would be both fun, and give stamina users a TON of option on any given bar. Note: you could only do this with 1 active ability at any given time.
Noting also, this would also benefit magicka users. By preparing an ability on bar (or on your second bar), that is using stamina instead, running out of magicka still leaves you with an option. For example a shield or streak, paid for with stamina to allow your magicka reserves to recharge.

Suggestion No.5
Do the above suggestion, but work it into spell crafting when that update comes through.

Its not JUST that stamina needs to be competitive with magicka builds, it needs to be as much FUN! For it to be fun, we need to have options to play around with and explore.

Please note: None of this is hating on Magicka builds, I'm just trying to get some options for us Stam users who don't have many at present.

Feel free to add your own suggestions to this post, and your opinions of these suggestions (in a polite manner

)

I would love to gain support for these suggestions that people like, so that ZoS will be more inclined to include them, so please post your feedback and say which ideas you like and why

PS vote Number 4! You know you want to

monden1980b16_ESO · August 2014

Stamina pool is already used for many other actions (blocking, dodging, sprinting, break-free). With putting more stamina-based abilities on your bar you only gimp yourself, no matter how many choices you have... that's the crux.

CenturionExplorer · August 2014

monden1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Stamina pool is already used for many other actions (blocking, dodging, sprinting, break-free). With putting more stamina-based abilities on your bar you only gimp yourself, no matter how many choices you have... that's the crux.

I think he meant stamina needs to have a more active part in spells and abillities, than currently.

I think there are some great and good thoughts put into this and the OP surely does has some nice ideas.

But i wouldn't want to see ZOS prioritize those ideas over so many others. If they have time and feel encouraged at their office once to implent these ideas, i will be happy, but until then. Theres a lot that needs fixing and more content to be added before we reach that part.

But the same was the case with Skyrim.

Sethriel · August 2014

monden1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Stamina pool is already used for many other actions (blocking, dodging, sprinting, break-free). With putting more stamina-based abilities on your bar you only gimp yourself, no matter how many choices you have... that's the crux.

Yes, stamina is used for those actions. But stamina is a resource, and like ZOS have stated, they are going to continue buffing stamina until they see an equal number of people using stamina as their primary resource. So no, using stam for other abilities is not gimping yourself, unless you are primarily a magicka user. Stamina is a resource that will (eventually according to ZOS) be viable as your aggressive resource, as well as your blocking, dodging sprinting etc.

While I agree with CenturionExplorer, there are other issues that need fixing, ZOS is not limited to working on a few things at a time, each patch fixes many different things, and each update so far has included a multitude of things, not just one. Which is why I'm raising this now, because if we can garner enough support, hopefully ZOS will include it later on.
One of the problems with Stamina currently, is that people actually view it as a purely defensive resource, rather then an offensive one. That problem is because you have so few offensive options with it. And I don't see why they can't be working on more then one problem at the same time, because being honest, this is a problem. It is however, fixable, hence my post here

Ser Lobo · August 2014

My take is that ZOS never intended there to be only stamina-based builds, and that players choosing to do so are simply choosing to be gimped. Proof of my argument, I feel, is the reliance on stamina for 'finesse' abilities which define good players (block, interrupt, break free, etc), and all class skills (the most powerful abilities in the game) being magicka based.

The problem with the balance at the moment is while stamina-only builds suck, and mixed builds are getting stronger, there is the capability to build only for magicka that synergizes well with light armor passives, staff weapon abilities and class skills. While that player still has to use stamina for finesse, that's ALL they use it for, otherwise pooling all abilities and resources into magicka.

I believe that the ultimate response will eventually just be a nerf to light armor passives so that they aren't nearly as synergetic as they currently are. The addition or conversion of certain class skills into stamina users is another move I think will eventually happen.

Something of the imbalance the Op forgot to mention is the number of gear sets that focus on magicka builds.

Sethriel · August 2014

@ruze84b14_ESO‌

I agree that by building only stam in ESO in its current form, is choosing to be gimped, because it doesn't compare with magicka. But that shouldn't be the case, nor do I believe that ZOS intended that to be the case. In the inverview at Quakecon, they said specifically that they are going to continue buffing stamina builds until they see as just as many players using stamina as their primary resource. You can look up this video on youtube, these comments were made by the lead game designers.

They most certainly do intend for stamina to be a primary resource, but the current state of the game prohibits that being viable, which is why I made this post in the first place. I'm try to gather support, and the attention of ZOS to make some of these changes a reality

Sord · September 2014

What I don't understand is why they can't make some of the class powers stam based why do they all have to be magic based. It would make sense to turn some of the main skill powers into stam based for instances DK and NB should have as many or more stam based powers in their class tree vs magic. Where templars might have a few and Sorcs well they should be primarily magic based. I know it might confuse people that a skill line ability can be one or the other but really if they can't look and read then they will figure it out. Besides we can only have 5 active abilities at one given time it isn't that hard to mouse over the power and see it is stam. I personally am really disappointed in the lack of stam abilities, my NB (V2) only has 1 stam based power that I want to use and all I need is 2 rings that reduce cost and I barely ever run out of stam even blocking and dodging eats very little of the stam I need. I am temped to switch to LA (which seems just silly for a NB in mage clothing wth) from HA (which also seems weird) but MA is what a NB by general design should be wearing but it would be over kill for to wear it for that one power and it isn't even that primary to use that one power. Why do all my attacks need to be magic based as a NB? it just doesn't make sense. Just my .02 cents worth.

Lionxoft · September 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

My take is that ZOS never intended there to be only stamina-based builds, and that players choosing to do so are simply choosing to be gimped. Proof of my argument, I feel, is the reliance on stamina for 'finesse' abilities which define good players (block, interrupt, break free, etc), and all class skills (the most powerful abilities in the game) being magicka based.

The problem with the balance at the moment is while stamina-only builds suck, and mixed builds are getting stronger, there is the capability to build only for magicka that synergizes well with light armor passives, staff weapon abilities and class skills. While that player still has to use stamina for finesse, that's ALL they use it for, otherwise pooling all abilities and resources into magicka.

I believe that the ultimate response will eventually just be a nerf to light armor passives so that they aren't nearly as synergetic as they currently are. The addition or conversion of certain class skills into stamina users is another move I think will eventually happen.

Something of the imbalance the Op forgot to mention is the number of gear sets that focus on magicka builds.

Why give medium armor feat cost reduction if it was never intended? Why have a feat cost reduction glyph?

You hit the nail on the head with the gear sets. Seducer grants 8% cost reduction to spells... Is a low trait crafted set. The stam equiv. is a trials set (Ophidian) where you're stuck with the garbage traits they give you. It's a fun set and looks awesome but in PvP you get sliced like butter.

I'd love to see some sort of powerful damage shield that scales off of stamina. Nightblades lack a class shield and annulment 244 hit points for my stam build just doesn't work that well when a sorc's shield can go well over 900 since it scales off of magicka. DK's shield scales off of health and I'd still love to have a damage shield that scaled like that even. Maybe that will be a possibility when spellcrafting comes out. Das Konk (Nick) has a way of impressing us so I hope he continues. 1h/s has a shield from invasion but it's only 400ish points and only lasts for 4 seconds which is a lot of meh.

With all that said... I have multiple VR12 characters that are magicka focused. I absolutely love my stamina Nightblade. Something about it just feels right and awesome. Sure, he's gimped a little bit when compared to the magicka counterpart but I won't give up on it because it is just that fun.

Sarenia · September 2014

Idea: the percentage of stamina used for dodging/rolling should be reduced based on points dipped into the stamina stat (hard allocations, not item boosts).

If someone has 50 stamina, they should be free to dodge and roll around basically for free IMO.

That would free up stamina exclusively for skills, while encouraging true persistent mobility. They'd have to compensate for health or magic on gear though, taking a hit on one.

Just theorycrafting there. I haven't played a high end stamina build, and obviously can't test the actual mechanics of this idea. Feel free to nitpick or refine the idea.

Lionxoft · September 2014

Sarenia wrote: »

Idea: the percentage of stamina used for dodging/rolling should be reduced based on points dipped into the stamina stat (hard allocations, not item boosts).

If someone has 50 stamina, they should be free to dodge and roll around basically for free IMO.

That would free up stamina exclusively for skills, while encouraging true persistent mobility. They'd have to compensate for health or magic on gear though, taking a hit on one.

Just theorycrafting there. I haven't played a high end stamina build, and obviously can't test the actual mechanics of this idea. Feel free to nitpick or refine the idea.

Would be better that one would get x% dodge roll reduction per weapon or stam ability slotted.

Soloeus · September 2014

Wow, just no. This whole thing is a bad idea. Leave it how it is now, you can use 2 Stamina Weapon Lines and I was told Werewolf is also Stamina Based.

Undaunted doesn't need to be Stamina Based. Really? Look at it, that isn't Stamina. No way, just no. How about making every class Ability cost Stamina while we are at it and just leave Magicka for the Destro/Resto Staff?

No way.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2014

I'd like to see Weapon Combinations help in this regard. Skyrim is a fine example of this, as they were simple weapon combinations but had a valid function in gameplay. Since weapon damage is based off of Stamina as well, Combination attacks would effectively enhance your general gameplay. Additionally, they could go one step further, and have combination moves create certain modifiers which could in turn make your spells better. DCUO did something like this, and its quite fun to use. There are many builds in that game which use your super powers, weapon combinations or both, and there's a synchronous effect between the two. I'd love it, and it would be a great development of the Fighters guild, Undaunted, and even weapon skill lines. I wouldn't call such a thing as 'weapon crafting' but 'Martial Mastery' or "Martial Techniques' would be a great way to put it. Even the Staffs could benefit from something like this (in some ways the Restoration staff already does).

Vaelen · September 2014

At least make some of the class skills stamina based, doesn't make sense that the majority of them are magicka based anyway.

GnatB · September 2014

Vaelen wrote: »

At least make some of the class skills stamina based, doesn't make sense that the majority of them are magicka based anyway.

Meh, think of them as spell schools and not class skills. Light, Shadow, Dragon, and I don't know, Ether.

Still hoping that at some point they'll either add quest lines to learn the other spell schools, or spell crafting will make 'em all redundant anyways.

jelliedsoup · September 2014

Sethriel wrote: »

@ruze84b14_ESO‌

I agree that by building only stam in ESO in its current form, is choosing to be gimped, because it doesn't compare with magicka. But that shouldn't be the case, nor do I believe that ZOS intended that to be the case. In the inverview at Quakecon, they said specifically that they are going to continue buffing stamina builds until they see as just as many players using stamina as their primary resource. You can look up this video on youtube, these comments were made by the lead game designers.

They most certainly do intend for stamina to be a primary resource, but the current state of the game prohibits that being viable, which is why I made this post in the first place. I'm try to gather support, and the attention of ZOS to make some of these changes a reality

Dude if zos didn't intend this they really messed it up. It was obvious to many after a quick look at the class setup and amount of damage per class and weapon skills.

Kypho · September 2014

Since block eating stamina, sprint eating stamina, roll eating stamina, and almost every skill stuns and stun break eating stamina.... you are very limited what you can do with weapons, even if its almost as good as magicka abilities, but they arent sadly, a magicka build is far superior... sadly again...

Need a whole overhaul, or more stamina/twice stamina regen is needed, but that would boost the currently OP 1h+sh build DKs. Maybe magicka abilities should cost more, or magicka regen should be lower. But that will cause MUCH MUCH complain again sadly. Since -2% penetration nerf caused QQ too (lol). But the game need ballance, and nerf is needed.

Another option is to lower the weapon abilities costs, stun break cost, roll cost.

Thats just IMO, no need to flame. Magicka is far superior even with the penetration nerf, what is needed and not as big nerf as it should be. BTW all know that even if they cry.