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ZeniMax, You've Got a LOT of Explaining To Do
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »The problem with solo players is NOT that it's group content, it's that it can't be PUG'd and requires PLANNED grouping which an incredibly tiny percentage of players can organize.
Make the phasing and grouping work for PUGs in Craglorn and most of these solo complaints will evaporate.
I've done PUGs for every single Craglorn quest. No idea what you're talking about.
I'm talking about those people who have stated in zone and in the forums as well as my own experience that forming a group and questing through the craglorn quest series has taken weeks and weeks if you didn't reach the content early post launch because the phasing of quest stages makes it impossible to group with other sot complete a phase they aren't on.
I mean even the number of people that are experiencing problems and those who didn't like yourself is anecdotal.
However, it is an objective fact that both the current phasing system and grouping requirements reduces the overall pool of available players at a given time to complete a given phase of the quest another player is one.
By itself grouping doesn't cause this in single instance situations like group dungeons.
Likewise, it's not as great in group-focused non-phased areas like public dungeons, because even if you don't manually group up, another player will eventually pass through that area to aid you.
The combination of not being able to complete quests solo and being locked out of phases from other potential group members is the biggest impediment to overall questing progress.
Does it take some time to find a pick-up group for Craglorn questing? Yes. Of course. Until they nerf grinding in to the ground, it will always be harder to find groups for questing.
However, the notion that Craglorn requires planned grouping is ridiculous. I finished the main quest line today, and it was a pick-up group.----
Murray?3 -
Probitas✭✭✭There needs to be something for PVE, to balance out the PVP, not everyone WANTS to PVP. I know, to you PVP folks that's care bear attitude, but those people pay money just the same, and it takes both types of players to keep a game floating.
If there are repeatable PVP quests, then the PVE should have the same thing.
And the OP is quite right, a lot of people signed up for this due to the Elder Scrolls solo games, and you can't just ignore their expectations in favor of PVP and group content. I know it's an MMO, but that does not mean everyone has to be grouped, it just means there are other players to interact with, in the manner of each persons choosing, nothing should be forced. I've been playing MMO's since I was 25, back when World of Warcraft wasn't even a dream. So I think I have the right to make this claim.Edited by Probitas on August 24, 2014 3:41AM6 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There needs to be something for PVE, to balance out the PVP, not everyone WANTS to PVP. I know, to you PVP folks that's care bear attitude, but those people pay money just the same, and it takes both types of players to keep a game floating.
If there are repeatable PVP quests, then the PVE should have the same thing.
And the OP is quite right, a lot of people signed up for this due to the Elder Scrolls solo games, and you can't just ignore their expectations in favor of PVP and group content. I know it's an MMO, but that does not mean everyone has to be grouped, it just means there are other players to interact with, in the manner of each persons choosing, nothing should be forced. I've been playing MMO's since I was 25, back when World of Warcraft wasn't even a dream. So I think I have the right to make this claim.
There are repeatable PvE quests.----
Murray?5 -
Probitas✭✭✭Where, I have yet to find one? Everything so far is one time, and then that's it.
If you are referring to the ability to enter an area and kill off boss mobs, that's not quite the same thing.1 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Where, I have yet to find one? Everything so far is one time, and then that's it.
If you are referring to the ability to enter an area and kill off boss mobs, that's not quite the same thing.
Cyrodiil has five cities worth of repeatable PvE quests, and every non-storyline quest in Craglorn is repeatable.----
Murray?3 -
Probitas✭✭✭Isn't Cyrodil lvl 50 content? Where is the content for the remainder of the game that is repeatable?
And Craglorn is group trials (from the webpage "Take on 12-player Trials and get on the leaderboards".2 -
Ohioastro✭✭✭✭The three hundred hours of single player questing in the game count. It does also make some sense to have repeatable ones at high level. Why would you want them at level ten?2
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1ne2woBe✭✭✭Apologies for not reading all 4 pages of comments. I'll just stick to adding my opinion to the thread. I enjoyed playing ES as it was, and do so while playing ESO. I enjoy playing alone. It is nice meeting people, and making friends. However, when it comes to questing... I enjoy doing so on my own terms, my own pace, and my own way. I wish (just as dungeons change once a vet comes to play) that you could choose to play the game as 'solo' at whim, and still be able to go through most of the content without being devastated by a boss or
Thank you OP for the thread. You've made very valuable points.3 -
michaelb14a_ESO2✭✭✭✭It seems like everything released so far have been things that weren't ready for launch. For the most part, they aren't addressing what players want in the new updates, which shows that they are not actually working on new content yet. They are finishing up old projects.
This is the most insightful post in this entire thread, agree 100%
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Rodario✭✭✭✭✭I agree with the sentiment that leveling and questing should always be soloable, including craglorn. Soloable dungeons go too far for my taste though, unless it's something like "story mode" that will give you crap loot.Victoria Lux - Templar Tank
{EU/DC}2 -
pilotfish✭✭✭I dread the thought of a Craglorn delve scaled down to accommodate a solo player in light of how worthlessly easy VR1-10 zones have become. As it is now, many Craglorn delves with a duo feel trivial compared to attempting them alone.
But that isn't what the OP is suggesting. I think what he's talking about is scaling by instance, so when there's one person, that one person will find an equivalent challenge. For 2 it will be more challenging, etc.
Nobody is talking about making the game a faceroll. If anything, this would allow them to make the whole level higher, which I gather some people would like. For you, perhaps they'll allow you to tell the game to calibrate the difficulty for a group of 12, which you then take on solo. Why not? It would make for a pretty short YouTube video, but I'd watch it... ;-)
The four person delves are instanced. I took the suggestion to mean that by entering alone, I would be forced to play at "single player difficulty". I am not a fan of auto-scaling content. Even if there were a slider which you could use to select a difficulty setting, I don't trust anyone to do a very good job at designing content which scales like that. Especially from single player difficulty to twelve players. I don't think it really works. What do you do, buff mobs HP? It is more of a design challenge than it is worth.1 -
Brizz✭✭✭✭I would be very interested in more solo endgame content.:.,_,.:*"'"*:.,_,.:*"'"* Guild of Shadows *"'":.,_,.:*"'"*:.,_,.:
Briizz - v14 EP Werewolf Nightblade <Former Emperor - Chillrend NA>
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Brizeer - v4 Stamina Sorcerer - Prophet of Zazeer-Destroyer of Buff Severs and Eater of Sweet Rolls-
Watch LIVE @ www.twitch.tv/brizztv1 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wait...solo end-game content? That's a thing? Aren't most single player games over once you beat them? Save for going back through on HARDCORE mode?Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
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WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭WHICH by the way we get do not ONCE but TWICE as every single player gets to experience every quest of every alliance. So if that amount of solo content doesn't slake your thirst, methinks it's time to admit you have a problem with being social.Edited by WraithAzraiel on August 24, 2014 8:47AMShendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
"No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."
P2PBetaTesters
#Tamriel_BETA_Team
#BETA_TESTER4LYF
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#GOAHEADTHEYGOTCANDY
#SEEMSLEGIT2 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭I dread the thought of a Craglorn delve scaled down to accommodate a solo player in light of how worthlessly easy VR1-10 zones have become. As it is now, many Craglorn delves with a duo feel trivial compared to attempting them alone.
But that isn't what the OP is suggesting. I think what he's talking about is scaling by instance, so when there's one person, that one person will find an equivalent challenge. For 2 it will be more challenging, etc.
Nobody is talking about making the game a faceroll. If anything, this would allow them to make the whole level higher, which I gather some people would like. For you, perhaps they'll allow you to tell the game to calibrate the difficulty for a group of 12, which you then take on solo. Why not? It would make for a pretty short YouTube video, but I'd watch it... ;-)
The four person delves are instanced. I took the suggestion to mean that by entering alone, I would be forced to play at "single player difficulty". I am not a fan of auto-scaling content. Even if there were a slider which you could use to select a difficulty setting, I don't trust anyone to do a very good job at designing content which scales like that. Especially from single player difficulty to twelve players. I don't think it really works. What do you do, buff mobs HP? It is more of a design challenge than it is worth.
The devs would design them based on 12 players.....simplifying the content to suit less players would then be much easier. Adding challenge is far more difficult than removing it.Anything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭I dread the thought of a Craglorn delve scaled down to accommodate a solo player in light of how worthlessly easy VR1-10 zones have become. As it is now, many Craglorn delves with a duo feel trivial compared to attempting them alone.
But that isn't what the OP is suggesting. I think what he's talking about is scaling by instance, so when there's one person, that one person will find an equivalent challenge. For 2 it will be more challenging, etc.
Nobody is talking about making the game a faceroll. If anything, this would allow them to make the whole level higher, which I gather some people would like. For you, perhaps they'll allow you to tell the game to calibrate the difficulty for a group of 12, which you then take on solo. Why not? It would make for a pretty short YouTube video, but I'd watch it... ;-)
The four person delves are instanced. I took the suggestion to mean that by entering alone, I would be forced to play at "single player difficulty". I am not a fan of auto-scaling content. Even if there were a slider which you could use to select a difficulty setting, I don't trust anyone to do a very good job at designing content which scales like that. Especially from single player difficulty to twelve players. I don't think it really works. What do you do, buff mobs HP? It is more of a design challenge than it is worth.
You have a point, it does seem to be reaching around your back to scratch your ear. Perhaps "auto scaling" would be switchable, like the "vet/non vet" in instanced dungeons. On the other hand, something of the sort is already done with dolmens--the more people there are there, the more mobs there are.1 -
pilotfish✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »I dread the thought of a Craglorn delve scaled down to accommodate a solo player in light of how worthlessly easy VR1-10 zones have become. As it is now, many Craglorn delves with a duo feel trivial compared to attempting them alone.
But that isn't what the OP is suggesting. I think what he's talking about is scaling by instance, so when there's one person, that one person will find an equivalent challenge. For 2 it will be more challenging, etc.
Nobody is talking about making the game a faceroll. If anything, this would allow them to make the whole level higher, which I gather some people would like. For you, perhaps they'll allow you to tell the game to calibrate the difficulty for a group of 12, which you then take on solo. Why not? It would make for a pretty short YouTube video, but I'd watch it... ;-)
The four person delves are instanced. I took the suggestion to mean that by entering alone, I would be forced to play at "single player difficulty". I am not a fan of auto-scaling content. Even if there were a slider which you could use to select a difficulty setting, I don't trust anyone to do a very good job at designing content which scales like that. Especially from single player difficulty to twelve players. I don't think it really works. What do you do, buff mobs HP? It is more of a design challenge than it is worth.
The devs would design them based on 12 players.....simplifying the content to suit less players would then be much easier. Adding challenge is far more difficult than removing it.
I think this would amount to the same difference. That is watered down or broken versions of an instance somewhere inside the slider. Much easier to design for a specific number of players inside a small level range. I prefer well designed content in spite of these sorts of stipulations. One size fits all compromises too much. We can agree to disagree.1 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »WHICH by the way we get do not ONCE but TWICE as every single player gets to experience every quest of every alliance. So if that amount of solo content doesn't slake your thirst, methinks it's time to admit you have a problem with being social.
How I prefer to game and how I prefer to socialize don't necessarily have anything to do with each other, and the suggestion that a gaming preference is an indicator of a "problem" is rather insulting, not to mention unfounded.
There are many levels of social interaction in this game (this forum, by the way, being one of them), and preferring one kind over another really indicates pretty much nothing.4 -
1ne2woBe✭✭✭I agree with the sentiment that leveling and questing should always be soloable, including craglorn.
Indeed. Some of us just enjoy playing ESO, just as we did when we played ES. The options are fine to be able to play ESO within groups. However, please don't prevent the solo group from the same options of receiving the same content/prizes/trophies/etc.. Why take away something from a person's playing style?
It's not like you're a psychiatrist, attempting to get lonely people to make new friends... right? If not, then please allow our type of playing style the options of the same content at our own pace/style of playing.
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Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭Isn't Cyrodil lvl 50 content? Where is the content for the remainder of the game that is repeatable?
Ummm... not exactly. Your stats are boosted into level 50 territory when you enter Cyrodiil, so that's not the issue. You can go there any time after you hit level 10. The mobs are VR5, which can be rough if you're questing alone and < level 35 or so. But those Cyrodiil city quests are indeed repeatable. AND BORING.
Take another look at the Craglorn information, you missed a few things, like the 4 man instanced dungeons, the group quests, and some other things. But no, it's not really solo content. Some say that's why you can't get groups together, everyone is running around farming bosses...
But really, what is the point of repeatable content? I can't think of anything more boring than running around and around, doing the same content over and over. Isn't "repeatable content" just an euphemism for "officially sanctioned grinding?"
I really love those quests that provide you all the re-spawning mobs you want, so you can farm and murder to your heart's content, then once you finish the quest, they all turn non-hostile, like The Orchard in Coldharbour. Once I'm done with the "harvest," it's time to move on IMHO. Just my preference, YMMV.1 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Isn't Cyrodil lvl 50 content? Where is the content for the remainder of the game that is repeatable?
And Craglorn is group trials (from the webpage "Take on 12-player Trials and get on the leaderboards".
As someone else mentioned, Cyrodiil quests are VR5 (still a challenge at endgame), and Craglorn is much more than trials.----
Murray?4 -
Korinth✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.
yeah, next year.
so why not charge solo player differently than group players? since solo players get 1/6 of the new content?
You get 100% of the content. If you choose to ignore 5/6 of it, that's your choice.
Wrong....I want to play group stuff but my dw redgaurd templar v12 is not welcomed....case in point I spent 48 minutes yesterday looking for group...I finally got in and then once they saw I was a heavy armor dw...I got kicked...I then got into another group who said they didn't care....at this point it was an hour to get into trial. ...att which point 8 mins into the trial 2 members left to go find another group.
When the pure stupidity of grouping is forced to call for specific builds and has long as there is no punishment for leaving a group....your statement is 100% incorrect. Why should I pay to wait while you are happily playing the game?
It's not a choice.
THIS...exactly what I was pointing to in my post. TESO was touted as "play as you want to play"....yet we are being railroaded into specific builds, with specific skills, specific armor loadout, using a small amount of weapons (mostly resto staff)...or we cant compete.
You can play however you want.
But everyone else is not forced to play w/ you if you are trying to get into high end content w/ a subpar build.
Maybe you didn't realize that Trials are timed, and you are bringing nothing to the table w/ your build but low DPS.
That's my point though... why should a Nightblade be forced to use a Resto-staff Magica build to do 700 -1,000+ dps (My guild mate has this build and its amazing). Meanwhile my Nightblade with more of a stamina build, dual weld is maxing around 600 dps...and the only reason is because the Resto staff build just cant be beat. Period.
Weapons/skills need balanced. Min/Maxing should be more a result of you knowing how to synergize your skills (and maintaining a good rotation) vs. having one weapon/skill package far outpower another.
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.
yeah, next year.
so why not charge solo player differently than group players? since solo players get 1/6 of the new content?
You get 100% of the content. If you choose to ignore 5/6 of it, that's your choice.
Wrong....I want to play group stuff but my dw redgaurd templar v12 is not welcomed....case in point I spent 48 minutes yesterday looking for group...I finally got in and then once they saw I was a heavy armor dw...I got kicked...I then got into another group who said they didn't care....at this point it was an hour to get into trial. ...att which point 8 mins into the trial 2 members left to go find another group.
When the pure stupidity of grouping is forced to call for specific builds and has long as there is no punishment for leaving a group....your statement is 100% incorrect. Why should I pay to wait while you are happily playing the game?
It's not a choice.
THIS...exactly what I was pointing to in my post. TESO was touted as "play as you want to play"....yet we are being railroaded into specific builds, with specific skills, specific armor loadout, using a small amount of weapons (mostly resto staff)...or we cant compete.
You can play however you want.
But everyone else is not forced to play w/ you if you are trying to get into high end content w/ a subpar build.
Maybe you didn't realize that Trials are timed, and you are bringing nothing to the table w/ your build but low DPS.
That's my point though... why should a Nightblade be forced to use a Resto-staff Magica build to do 700 -1,000+ dps (My guild mate has this build and its amazing). Meanwhile my Nightblade with more of a stamina build, dual weld is maxing around 600 dps...and the only reason is because the Resto staff build just cant be beat. Period.
Weapons/skills need balanced. Min/Maxing should be more a result of you knowing how to synergize your skills (and maintaining a good rotation) vs. having one weapon/skill package far outpower another.
You aren't forced to use a staff build to be competitive, much less viable. My guild's been running trials with half melee/half staff groups, and we're doing pretty insane damage. So either our staff users are just the best in the game, or our melee people actually know how to use their weapons well.----
Murray?1 -
Aldarenn✭✭✭Charge 1/6 of grouped players? So you're willing to pay $2-4 to run the game without being able to do AvA, Trials, or even Group dungeons? Sounds boring, especially when you'll have trouble doing delves and dolmens and even world bosses by yourself at times.
Also, you won't have anyone to brag about your armor and you have to find all of your mats when I enjoy buying mine from people since I'm lazy.Templar - Noel Kreiss - DC
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Korinth✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Sallington wrote: »forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.
yeah, next year.
so why not charge solo player differently than group players? since solo players get 1/6 of the new content?
You get 100% of the content. If you choose to ignore 5/6 of it, that's your choice.
Wrong....I want to play group stuff but my dw redgaurd templar v12 is not welcomed....case in point I spent 48 minutes yesterday looking for group...I finally got in and then once they saw I was a heavy armor dw...I got kicked...I then got into another group who said they didn't care....at this point it was an hour to get into trial. ...att which point 8 mins into the trial 2 members left to go find another group.
When the pure stupidity of grouping is forced to call for specific builds and has long as there is no punishment for leaving a group....your statement is 100% incorrect. Why should I pay to wait while you are happily playing the game?
It's not a choice.
THIS...exactly what I was pointing to in my post. TESO was touted as "play as you want to play"....yet we are being railroaded into specific builds, with specific skills, specific armor loadout, using a small amount of weapons (mostly resto staff)...or we cant compete.
You can play however you want.
But everyone else is not forced to play w/ you if you are trying to get into high end content w/ a subpar build.
Maybe you didn't realize that Trials are timed, and you are bringing nothing to the table w/ your build but low DPS.
That's my point though... why should a Nightblade be forced to use a Resto-staff Magica build to do 700 -1,000+ dps (My guild mate has this build and its amazing). Meanwhile my Nightblade with more of a stamina build, dual weld is maxing around 600 dps...and the only reason is because the Resto staff build just cant be beat. Period.
Weapons/skills need balanced. Min/Maxing should be more a result of you knowing how to synergize your skills (and maintaining a good rotation) vs. having one weapon/skill package far outpower another.
You aren't forced to use a staff build to be competitive, much less viable. My guild's been running trials with half melee/half staff groups, and we're doing pretty insane damage. So either our staff users are just the best in the game, or our melee people actually know how to use their weapons well.
Interesting... I have followed every Melee DPS guide I can find and cant seem to pull more than 400 - 600 dps sustained (can do MASSIVE burst damage at 1,700 dps to 2,000 dps..but that is just burst). Yet I have seen magica/staff builds where guys are pulling 1,000+ dps consistently.
Would love to see some numbers comparing the two with your group. Or from someone that has really done the research. The numbers guy in our guild (a BIG min/max'er) tends to side with the magica/staff build as being largely better than stamina/weapons.
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Stonesthrow✭✭✭✭@ the OP…
Some interesting ideas/questions in there, but as far as the references to Group and Veteran Group Dungeons needing to be solo able with some sort of scaling, I disagree. Those don't need to be and shouldn't be related to the single player game progression in anyway unless the player wants them to be. You can skip all the "group" type dungeons and do just fine leveling your character with quests.
All MMOs have group content made for small and large groups… its the point of an MMO for the most part. Outside of PvP there is little need to group in any of these games. This should not however be required in any means to LEVEL your character. You should never have to group to "level". Grouping is for harder progressive content with better rewards, gear grinds, etc...
I agree that Craglorn however screws it up a bit. The quests in Crag should have been solo able so everyone can experience them at their own pace. Leave the delves as group, leave the anomalies and everything else as group, but let people do the quests at their own pace. It is a storyline, and a pretty good one if you actually take the time to absorb it, that some people who don't have enough friends or guildees willing to help by going backwards will miss out on.
Just my thoughts.Edited by Stonesthrow on August 26, 2014 4:19PM2
