ZeniMax, You've Got a LOT of Explaining To Do

sotonin · August 2014

Well. you are not entirely accurate. They nerfed Veteran difficulty which was a HUGE improvement to solo content. Just saying...

Korinth · August 2014

TLDR from the OP...

First I will say when is Zenimax going to balance ALL ABILITES so we don't see every class running around with a Resto staff because of the damage and heals are about the only way to really max dps and survivability. Im sorry but I will NOT have my NB running around with a resto staff.... but because of my stance on that, Im being left out of guild raids.

Second...solo content... pfft... if you want solo content go play Skyrim. This is a MMO not a MSO (massively single player online).

What I would like to see is MUCH higher Vet points given in vet dungeons and pvp, as quite frankly, I don't have the stomach to trudge through ALL areas grinding grinding grinding. I did enough of that to get to Vet 1.

I would also like to see Zeni fix the stupid phasing issue where I cant help a guildmate or other player if I have already completed the storyline. SWTOR did this very well.... TESO seems to have improved a bit with the last patch, so one can hope they are working on it.

Anyway that's my not so humble opinion.

Korinth · August 2014

Elad13 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »

Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.

yeah, next year.

so why not charge solo player differently than group players? since solo players get 1/6 of the new content?

You get 100% of the content. If you choose to ignore 5/6 of it, that's your choice.

Wrong....I want to play group stuff but my dw redgaurd templar v12 is not welcomed....case in point I spent 48 minutes yesterday looking for group...I finally got in and then once they saw I was a heavy armor dw...I got kicked...I then got into another group who said they didn't care....at this point it was an hour to get into trial. ...att which point 8 mins into the trial 2 members left to go find another group.

When the pure stupidity of grouping is forced to call for specific builds and has long as there is no punishment for leaving a group....your statement is 100% incorrect. Why should I pay to wait while you are happily playing the game?
It's not a choice.

THIS...exactly what I was pointing to in my post. TESO was touted as "play as you want to play"....yet we are being railroaded into specific builds, with specific skills, specific armor loadout, using a small amount of weapons (mostly resto staff)...or we cant compete.

Sallington · August 2014

Korinth wrote: »

Elad13 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »

Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.

yeah, next year.

so why not charge solo player differently than group players? since solo players get 1/6 of the new content?

You get 100% of the content. If you choose to ignore 5/6 of it, that's your choice.

Wrong....I want to play group stuff but my dw redgaurd templar v12 is not welcomed....case in point I spent 48 minutes yesterday looking for group...I finally got in and then once they saw I was a heavy armor dw...I got kicked...I then got into another group who said they didn't care....at this point it was an hour to get into trial. ...att which point 8 mins into the trial 2 members left to go find another group.

When the pure stupidity of grouping is forced to call for specific builds and has long as there is no punishment for leaving a group....your statement is 100% incorrect. Why should I pay to wait while you are happily playing the game?
It's not a choice.

THIS...exactly what I was pointing to in my post. TESO was touted as "play as you want to play"....yet we are being railroaded into specific builds, with specific skills, specific armor loadout, using a small amount of weapons (mostly resto staff)...or we cant compete.

Did you actually think "play as you want" meant every build and every style of play was going to be 100% equally efficient?

You can get through most of the game's content with a really, really terrible build. And I think that's awesome that there is that amount of freedom. Any class can use any armor, any weapon, and be somewhat effective? That's a first for me.

There's always going to be a "best build" that the theorycrafters and min-maxers use, and there's always going to be groups that will only accept those builds. There's many many more getting by with whatever build they damn well feel like using.

Korinth · August 2014

Sallington wrote: »

Korinth wrote: »

Elad13 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »

Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.

yeah, next year.

so why not charge solo player differently than group players? since solo players get 1/6 of the new content?

You get 100% of the content. If you choose to ignore 5/6 of it, that's your choice.

Wrong....I want to play group stuff but my dw redgaurd templar v12 is not welcomed....case in point I spent 48 minutes yesterday looking for group...I finally got in and then once they saw I was a heavy armor dw...I got kicked...I then got into another group who said they didn't care....at this point it was an hour to get into trial. ...att which point 8 mins into the trial 2 members left to go find another group.

When the pure stupidity of grouping is forced to call for specific builds and has long as there is no punishment for leaving a group....your statement is 100% incorrect. Why should I pay to wait while you are happily playing the game?
It's not a choice.

THIS...exactly what I was pointing to in my post. TESO was touted as "play as you want to play"....yet we are being railroaded into specific builds, with specific skills, specific armor loadout, using a small amount of weapons (mostly resto staff)...or we cant compete.

Did you actually think "play as you want" meant every build and every style of play was going to be 100% equally efficient?

You can get through most of the game's content with a really, really terrible build. And I think that's awesome that there is that amount of freedom. Any class can use any armor, any weapon, and be somewhat effective? That's a first for me.

There's always going to be a "best build" that the theorycrafters and min-maxers use, and there's always going to be groups that will only accept those builds. There's many many more getting by with whatever build they damn well feel like using.

Agreed... but right now it is broken. I like to be a tank, and my guild will tell you I do a good job of it, but what I refuse to do (as being in character and RP'ing) is be a Orc tank waving around a RESTO-STAFF. That's just silly.

Can I still do decent DPS...sure. Can I min/max no... but close. Can I tank fairly well...you bet. But you have to admit there are skills in ALL skill lines that NO ONE with half a brain will use as they are a waste of skill points (burning talons post nerf comes to mind...) which I think is a shame.

leandro.800ub17_ESO · August 2014

I generally play solo too but i also like 4 man groupings for dungeons , arenas , trials etc.

Having more group content is great , what is strange is that getting new content out is getting priority over updating the grouping tool and updating the reward system for completing group contents.
I've been stuck in Craglorn struggling for grouping for a long time so having new content wont matter cuz i cant finish this zone.

I know you will tell me to find a guild and yes believe me i am trying but come on this needs to be easier

Varicite · August 2014

Korinth wrote: »

Elad13 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »

Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.

yeah, next year.

so why not charge solo player differently than group players? since solo players get 1/6 of the new content?

You get 100% of the content. If you choose to ignore 5/6 of it, that's your choice.

Wrong....I want to play group stuff but my dw redgaurd templar v12 is not welcomed....case in point I spent 48 minutes yesterday looking for group...I finally got in and then once they saw I was a heavy armor dw...I got kicked...I then got into another group who said they didn't care....at this point it was an hour to get into trial. ...att which point 8 mins into the trial 2 members left to go find another group.

When the pure stupidity of grouping is forced to call for specific builds and has long as there is no punishment for leaving a group....your statement is 100% incorrect. Why should I pay to wait while you are happily playing the game?
It's not a choice.

THIS...exactly what I was pointing to in my post. TESO was touted as "play as you want to play"....yet we are being railroaded into specific builds, with specific skills, specific armor loadout, using a small amount of weapons (mostly resto staff)...or we cant compete.

You can play however you want.

But everyone else is not forced to play w/ you if you are trying to get into high end content w/ a subpar build.

Maybe you didn't realize that Trials are timed, and you are bringing nothing to the table w/ your build but low DPS.

Rune_Relic · August 2014

Varicite wrote: »

Korinth wrote: »

Elad13 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »

Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.

yeah, next year.

so why not charge solo player differently than group players? since solo players get 1/6 of the new content?

You get 100% of the content. If you choose to ignore 5/6 of it, that's your choice.

Wrong....I want to play group stuff but my dw redgaurd templar v12 is not welcomed....case in point I spent 48 minutes yesterday looking for group...I finally got in and then once they saw I was a heavy armor dw...I got kicked...I then got into another group who said they didn't care....at this point it was an hour to get into trial. ...att which point 8 mins into the trial 2 members left to go find another group.

When the pure stupidity of grouping is forced to call for specific builds and has long as there is no punishment for leaving a group....your statement is 100% incorrect. Why should I pay to wait while you are happily playing the game?
It's not a choice.

THIS...exactly what I was pointing to in my post. TESO was touted as "play as you want to play"....yet we are being railroaded into specific builds, with specific skills, specific armor loadout, using a small amount of weapons (mostly resto staff)...or we cant compete.

You can play however you want.

But everyone else is not forced to play w/ you if you are trying to get into high end content w/ a subpar build.

Maybe you didn't realize that Trials are timed, and you are bringing nothing to the table w/ your build but low DPS.

Because other builds don't compare...ie suck... ie unbalanced.
And yes they could balance every and any build to be effective.
I have built a system that does actually do that where some areas are more effective and others suffer.
Playing the characters to their max would leave no one winning.
Because any build is part of an equation that always has the same answer.
But then most dont understand... balance != WIN
I am sure if this useless pleb can manage such a thing then I damn hope Zenimax is more than upto it

Stx · August 2014

This game has so much single player content it is crazy. I just finished the third faction zones a few weeks ago... And not only that, but now I can go back and finish the lorebook collection, skyshard achievements etc.

This is a multiplayer game... if you want more solo content, then challenge yourself to solo some of the group content. Thats what I did, and it is satisfying to solo veteran dark anchors, world bosses, and public dungeons.

None of the things you listed are really that big of an issue. I think fixing the bugs in the game should take top priority over any new content, but whatever.

Halorin · August 2014

It is too difficult to not see the original post as self entitled whining. Solo-oriented players were able to convince the developers to make the veteran ranks as easy (or in some cases, easier) than the normal 1-50 progression, which has in effect become solo content. That should hold you over until Wrothgar and other solo content comes along.

If not, well, there's plenty of group content and PVP to involve yourself in as you've pointed out. Who knows. You might actually like some of the content if you step out of your perceptibly narrow vision of what content should be added to a massively multiplayer online RPG.

If you don't like that, either wait while paying a sub or don't. There's plenty I don't like about the latest road ahead (Justice System and Spellcrafting seemingly not coming any time soon), but I have the foresight to know that these games are extremely difficult to develop and that it's best to wait for a quality release than to rush something out which stops me from coming to the forums ranting and demanding things like the OP has.

Badh0rse · August 2014

Wait ............. there is group content in this game?!?!?!? Seriously, my major complaint about this game would be that it feels like a glorified single player game ... soooooo yeah. The people who enjoy solo get hours and hours and hours of quests to do and I get a handful of vet dungeons .... I think you are ahead in the game my friend.

elrusho1 · August 2014

Drazhar14 wrote: »

It seems like everything released so far have been things that weren't ready for launch. For the most part, they aren't addressing what players want in the new updates, which shows that they are not actually working on new content yet. They are finishing up old projects.

Exactly, single player content was pretty complete (with 15 zones and tons of quests) from day one, now they've focused on improving group content.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

.. you're trying to assert ZOS have had no time to produce the content he and many others like me wanted .. ZOS HAVE managed to produce a LOT of hardcore content for their friends in Entropy Rising.

No matter how large or powerful a company is they still have a limited number of people working on a project, because of this they have to prioritize some features above others. As the system moderators they have access to way more information than we do since we only hear from our friends and vocal minorities, and so we really can't wail on them for prioritizing features that might not feel important to us because we can't see the bigger picture.

All we can do is try to get ourselves heard and trust that they will try to make this a better and better game and understand that development takes time... as opposed to getting upset/angry.

Burnemdown · August 2014

I guess if ESO is just too soloy for you groupies, maybe it isn't the right game for you. Could it be time for you to move on?

Tyr · August 2014

forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »

Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.

Lol it's not coming until spring next year at the earliest.

Tyr · August 2014

The problem with solo players is NOT that it's group content, it's that it can't be PUG'd and requires PLANNED grouping which an incredibly tiny percentage of players can organize.

Make the phasing and grouping work for PUGs in Craglorn and most of these solo complaints will evaporate.

nerevarine1138 · August 2014

Tyr wrote: »

The problem with solo players is NOT that it's group content, it's that it can't be PUG'd and requires PLANNED grouping which an incredibly tiny percentage of players can organize.

Make the phasing and grouping work for PUGs in Craglorn and most of these solo complaints will evaporate.

I've done PUGs for every single Craglorn quest. No idea what you're talking about.

Braddass · August 2014

The problem is ... once you hit VR 12, you have to group to do anything ... and it is often hard to find a group.

I have tried numerous times to find a group to do the quests in Crag, but no one wants to do the quests. They want to grind the same few bosses over and over for XP.

I would love to do some of the trials, but my wife is ill and I have to afk from time to time to take care of her. Having raided in WoW for years, I know that would not go over well with most groups.

So, what is there left for people like me to do? Sadly, ESO is following the same path taken by other MMOs ... spending 50% of their time developing content for 5% of their playerbase.

NorthernFury · August 2014

I couldn't get past the fact that I read the title in Ricky Ricardo's voice

Damn Im getting old.

Badh0rse · August 2014

NorthernFury wrote: »

I couldn't get past the fact that I read the title in Ricky Ricardo's voice

Damn Im getting old.

Thanks for the laugh man!

Braddass · August 2014

he should have said "splaining" ...

Srugzal · August 2014

forbarcusb16_ESO wrote: »

Wrothgar. Case closed. It's coming.

Mmmm.... guess you didn't have time to read the whole thing, right? Sure, that must be it...

ers101284b14_ESO · August 2014

NorthernFury wrote: »

I couldn't get past the fact that I read the title in Ricky Ricardo's voice

Damn Im getting old.

I've been thinking that since I first saw the post. Didn't think anyone else would get it.

Srugzal · August 2014

A lot of insight shown in this post, @Korozenn‌ , and a lot of shallow thinking in many of the replies. I hope that rather than gauging by the knee-jerk reaction that ZOS actually pays attention to this.

One thing I'd like to see is the ability to craft items which require more than one crafter to complete, like an "engines of war" crafting discipline. Take a trebuchet for instance. A woodworker crafts the frame, passes it on to a clothier to craft the slings, ropes, and various binding materials, and the passes it on to a blacksmith to supply the hardware (nails, screws, buckets, whatever) and then requires all of them to group in order to assemble it. Something a guild could do, and something only a guild could afford to buy, resulting in an epic bit of gear. Think how crafted, destructible gear would change the siege dynamics in the game.

Crafted wayshrines & forward camps that can go anywhere, not just in Cyrodiil. Pay a toll to the owner to use it. Create rival transportation networks.

And then there's the whole issue of player housing. One of the most popular mods I remember in Skyrim was the "build it yourself" player home. You had to gather your own mats to use to build it. So how about a "home building" craft, an offshoot of all three crafts, using elements of all three?

As far as questing goes, all you need to do is start to tell some of the stories that are hinted at as the main story draws to a close. Get another Daedric Prince involved (more deeply than Sheogorath was. My personal choice would be Hermaus Mora, but any of them would do). They could easily have a mix of group/solo content, and, since both Coldharbour and Craglorn show that the "alliance instanced" zone is a done deal, no new mechanic will be involved.

Once you start thinking beyond the confines of the current design, there are a ton of interesting things that could be added. I think the OP has nailed it with this one. Hope it goes somewhere.

Srugzal · August 2014

pilotfish wrote: »

I dread the thought of a Craglorn delve scaled down to accommodate a solo player in light of how worthlessly easy VR1-10 zones have become. As it is now, many Craglorn delves with a duo feel trivial compared to attempting them alone.

But that isn't what the OP is suggesting. I think what he's talking about is scaling by instance, so when there's one person, that one person will find an equivalent challenge. For 2 it will be more challenging, etc.

Nobody is talking about making the game a faceroll. If anything, this would allow them to make the whole level higher, which I gather some people would like. For you, perhaps they'll allow you to tell the game to calibrate the difficulty for a group of 12, which you then take on solo. Why not? It would make for a pretty short YouTube video, but I'd watch it... ;-)

Srugzal · August 2014

The divisions in this community are very much on display here. The arguments I see are very much the same ones I remember from when I first started reading these forums. They consist of "this is an MMO" and "there's already lots of solo content" and of course the new one, invoking the name"Wrothgar" as if it were some kind of talisman.

I still see a lot of insults, a lot of straw-man burning, a lot of "go play Skyrim" (which is an old favorite).

What I would like to see is some rational discussion not of the issue of whether or not "Elder Scrolls" and "Online" mean anything or have anything to do with each other, but of the quite insightful and interesting questions that the OP has posed for the developers.

It's as if raising these questions were some kind of blasphemy that needed to be beaten back by the mob, rather than discussed, on its merits, point by point.

Tapio75 · August 2014

I wish that close minded MMO fanatics would just accept that MMO comes with RPG and when you add Online to Elder Scrolls, the requirements for game are online RPG more than just boring MMO.

I do not understand why you MMO fanatics want everything to be the exact copy paste of other games.

Let us just accept that this is really just another Elder Scrolls game with Online added to enrich the world. Content like Craglorn, delves and even mini dungeons should scale with player level and number of people in group and they should also has checkbox in settings that can be used to play any delve, dungeon and what ever as solo if you so wish.. In any area, player needs to be scaled to current zone like in Cyrodil.

I think that very good solution would be to give plenty of options in setting about how you want to play in different areas.

-Option to scale player stats to current zone and type of zone

-Option to make instances like caves and such to be solo only.

-Option to scale players by size of group.

By making these as options, you are free to choose whether you are always about the same level as the content you play or play as what your level is to get extra challenge. Do Craglorn as solo or do it with group, all having equal challenge. You could also leave these options unchecked to go group Craglorn alone to try and survive it or just go as group. However you want.

These two come to my mind right now.

Pheefs · August 2014

There are times when my quest objective/progress will be triggered by someone else's actions in a delve, or times where the presence of so many other players makes it feel like a parade...

At one ice cave/crazy ghost quest in particular, I found myself wishing every player character except my Duo ALSO looked like a ghost, because it really didn't make any sense in the quest story that we'd all be trapped in there together...

Rune_Relic wrote: »

there should be dungeons/zones etc that are isolated for 1-12 players.
This is what we mean by 'solo' content..."alone! at your pace without interference"

...especially for the sake of good Elder Scrolls Stories, I like this idea!
or possibly as a choice?
the solo player or group leader could chose which version they wanted to walk into on the other side.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

There's currently more solo content in the game than group content. The group content is just repeatable.

Are you just asking for repeatable daily quest?

Why not have repeatable, daily PvE quests. There are repeatable PvP daily's in Cyrodiil.

there are, they are also in cyrodiil.

Well thought out post, OP, I would like answers to these questions, as well.

The quests themselves are OK but doing them in Cyrodiil can be grim if you have high level gankers out looking for PvE scalps for their own daily quests.

One of my guildies who doesn't do much PvP was trying to do these for the achieve's and was repeatedly getting back stabbed by the same two guys any time he tried to collect or turn in quests there... Luckily there were a couple of us around who could come in and so we used him as bait and then took them out in return a couple of times until they slunk away. But a solo player doesn't always have friends available to help out like that.

It can be a small and unpleasant window on what open world PvP could be if it were ever enabled.

this is what I do, personally. Hang out a quest hubs and gank people. It's a great place for it, and since other people on opposing factions do it too, you usually get to fight someone that wants to kill you often enough.

if you don't want to pvp in cyrodiil, you can just go to a different town.

Besides the justice system being opt in and therefore being irrelevant to pvp in cyrodiil, it shouldn't be unpleasant. The risk makes it funner. You have smarter enemies.

Tyr · August 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

The problem with solo players is NOT that it's group content, it's that it can't be PUG'd and requires PLANNED grouping which an incredibly tiny percentage of players can organize.

Make the phasing and grouping work for PUGs in Craglorn and most of these solo complaints will evaporate.

I've done PUGs for every single Craglorn quest. No idea what you're talking about.

I'm talking about those people who have stated in zone and in the forums as well as my own experience that forming a group and questing through the craglorn quest series has taken weeks and weeks if you didn't reach the content early post launch because the phasing of quest stages makes it impossible to group with other sot complete a phase they aren't on.

I mean even the number of people that are experiencing problems and those who didn't like yourself is anecdotal.
However, it is an objective fact that both the current phasing system and grouping requirements reduces the overall pool of available players at a given time to complete a given phase of the quest another player is one.
By itself grouping doesn't cause this in single instance situations like group dungeons.
Likewise, it's not as great in group-focused non-phased areas like public dungeons, because even if you don't manually group up, another player will eventually pass through that area to aid you.

The combination of not being able to complete quests solo and being locked out of phases from other potential group members is the biggest impediment to overall questing progress.

Srugzal · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

There's currently more solo content in the game than group content. The group content is just repeatable.

Are you just asking for repeatable daily quest?

Why not have repeatable, daily PvE quests. There are repeatable PvP daily's in Cyrodiil.

there are, they are also in cyrodiil.

Well thought out post, OP, I would like answers to these questions, as well.

The quests themselves are OK but doing them in Cyrodiil can be grim if you have high level gankers out looking for PvE scalps for their own daily quests.

One of my guildies who doesn't do much PvP was trying to do these for the achieve's and was repeatedly getting back stabbed by the same two guys any time he tried to collect or turn in quests there... Luckily there were a couple of us around who could come in and so we used him as bait and then took them out in return a couple of times until they slunk away. But a solo player doesn't always have friends available to help out like that.

It can be a small and unpleasant window on what open world PvP could be if it were ever enabled.

this is what I do, personally. Hang out a quest hubs and gank people. It's a great place for it, and since other people on opposing factions do it too, you usually get to fight someone that wants to kill you often enough.

if you don't want to pvp in cyrodiil, you can just go to a different town.

Besides the justice system being opt in and therefore being irrelevant to pvp in cyrodiil, it shouldn't be unpleasant. The risk makes it funner. You have smarter enemies.

I'm as un-excited about being ganked as the next guy, but the danger aspect of questing in Cyrodiil does, I have to admit, make things on the whole a bit more interesting. Not only do you have to watch out not to walk into mobs, but you have to be wary lest you get ambushed. It makes things take longer, but I'll agree here, it does make it more fun... in a hair-on-fire kind of way. True, but not everyone has an appetite for that kind of excitement.

My other hobby is car racing simulations (like Assetto Corsa or GT Legends). Practicing driving around the track is one thing; actually racing, on the other hand, is something else entirely. It's the heightened element of risk that isn't there normally.

So when you walk into Cyrodiil, that "danger" element should always be there. It would severely hamper the game to make the place "safe."