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Yet Another 2 Handed Weapon Skill Idea Thread

Gravis
Gravis
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These are merely my thoughts of what would be appropriate changes to bring the two handed tree up to a some what competitive level while retaining its current style.

Actives

Cleave: Remove the bleed portion of this ability and instead add 50% of the removed bleed damage to the instant damage. Decrease cost by 10%

-I propose this one because frankly no one uses it for its bleed damage, and its current damage is much too low. This change would make it more viable in settings that require aoe *as it is meant to be used* but does not increase it too dramatically in small scale *1 vs 1*

Brawler: Same changes as to Cleave, but damage shield boosted by 15% or so per target *so if each target hit gave 100 before, this would make it each target hit gives 115* Additionally boost damage shield by 10% of damage you take within 2 second of activation. *Will help get the shield out without instantly being destroyed*

-This would allow Brawler to come closer to accomplishing what it was intended to do which was to grant a bit more survivability while still dealing AoE damage to enemies. If it was raw health like a heal it would definitely be imbalanced like this, but since damage shields do not take into account defenses and act as raw health, I feel that makes up for this change.

Carve: Same changes as to Cleave, but damage is halved, but to make up for this ultimate generated per target hit is drastically increased.

-Carve was never meant to be the damage dealing morph or the sustainability more, it was intended to build ultimate relatively fast when facing multiple enemies. Currently the extra ultimate gain is hardly noticable and could use a buff. TO compensate for such a buff which causes increased Ult use, the damage being cut was required.

Critical Charge: Overall good as is, perhaps a slight cost reduction.

-Sometimes it actually doesn't crit, but that is a bug so it shouldn't effect the balance. Other than that, since it is only usable at the beginning of a fight or at the very end, a slight cost reduction should allow a bit more flexibility.

Stampede: Add a Disarm for the duration of the root.

-At times it seems as if the root doesn't work, but overall I feel that a Disarm will help this ability differentiate itself from other similar abilities such as Shield charge without becoming too similar.

Critical Rush: Good as is. Perhaps slightly more damage scaling? Or Perhaps added damage if going down hill to simulate gravity giving the charger momentum.

- Overall this morph is working as intended and works wonderfully, mostly just QoL changes to it, though it would be fine if nothing changed to it.

Uppercut: Decrease cast time to .5 from 1.0. Increase damage by 30%. Increase cost by 20%. If enemy is unaffected by the knock back *immune, already knocked down, ect* Damage is instead increased by 20%.

-Its function is great, but 1 second channel time is simply too long for such a close combat skill. The damage increase is mostly due to the fact that the 2handed tree does not really have a hard hitting ability, but this one comes the closest. The change to already cc'd targets is to allow for it to be effective against bosses, world bosses, and to be a viable stamina dump when DPS is needed since its knock back would be unusable.

Dizzying Swing: Same changes as Standard, make the weakened state only count down for when it is not cc'd. *so it starts after they get back up, if they get knocked back down the timer essentially pauses, if it is another dizzying swing, it refreshes* Weakness applies whether it cc's the enemy or not, so that it can still be used against elite enemies. Though, its effect on elites is severely diminished *say, down to 10% from its usual 20%*

-As it stands of the 7.5 duration, only 4 or so of it is actually used since for 3.5 of it the enemy is on the ground and unable to act. The pausing when the enemy is cc'd is theory due to them not having time to steady themselves, and on none boss enemies to keep the weakness constant.

Wrecking Blow: Same changes as Standard, increase the damage dramatically of the follow up strike.

- As it stands, the current damage boost for the next hit is barely even noticeable, and due to this it falls behind Dizzying Swing, but if the damage of the follow up is increased it will be able to stand by itself.

Reverse Slash: Up potential damage bonus from 300% to 400%. Change the damage scaling so it does not start at 50% but at 100% so that it is a very gradual gain, reaching the 400% at around 20% enemy health. So for every 1% of enemy health lost this ability would gain 5% of its bonus damage. Change stamina cost to scale with damage done. Reduce cost to 100. So if it is used when the enemy is at 100% health it cost 100 stamina, nearly free. If used at around enemy 50% health however, it would cost approximately 250 stamina since it would be at 250% bonus damage. Essentially meaning that the increase in cost is the same as the increase in bonus damage increased by enemy health lost.

-Right now Reverse Slash is good for executing an enemy, but it just isn't all that helpful since most none elite enemies that get into the execution range will be killed with a power attack for free or just a few regular hits anyways. With this change it would be functional at any time but true to its intention increasingly deadly at execution range.

Executioner: Same changes as to Standard, gradual increase of 2 handed abilities and melee attacks instead of instant when in execution range. For every 4% of enemy health lost, you would gain 1% damage with 2 handed melee attacks and abilities, capping at 20% at 20% enemy health.

-Overall this would make this an almost essential pick for any stamina dependent 2 handed build, but since it limtis its effect to only 2 handed abilities, it can be controlled, allowing 2 handed to essentially get stronger as the fight goes on.

Reverse Slice: Same changes as to Standard, cut bonus damage down to 200% but cause the additional 2 targets to take full damage instead of only 20%.

-It helps 2 handed spread its damage a bit while still retaining some of its teeth, and still manages to not encroach too much on dual wieldings AoE executioner, Whirlwind. Even at the full 200% damage that is not terribly great damage, but it is also rare to have all 3 targets in execution range at the same time.

Momentum: Increase duration from 23 seconds to 45 seconds. Increase cost by 50%. Allow it to ignore the weapon damage cap.

- As it is the ability is great, but runs into the cap much too often. Add to that the fact that it often expires mid combat and this change would make it last through most battles. It should be noted how,ever that with this change would be a massive buff since it gains 2% damage every 2 seconds, as well as an initial 10%. Before right before it ended it would be at 34% damage. With this change right before it expires it would grant 54% damage. This is the reason for such a massive cost increase, which should help equal out the damage boost as well as help limit the ability to spam abilities after activation.

Forward Momentum: Same changes as to Standard, change breaking 4 snares at activation to adding 4 snares and slows to be broken during the duration. Stuns, roots, and other incapacitating effects are changed to 80% movement reduction. All of these will consume one of the 4 counters.

- This would allow momentum to shine in pvp and help 2 handed users to actually get in range and help fight against kiting a bit more. Stuns and incapacitating effects will no longer stop them in their tracks, but instead inflict a massive snare that will allow them to escape the one using momentum. Considering that this lasts for 45 seconds and only has 4 counters, this should be fairly balanced since after the 4th stuns, roots, slows, and other incapacitating effects will fully work then.

Rally: Same changes as to Standard, change the heal to over time and based off of maximum health. Regen 1% of maximum health per second for a total of 45% by the end.

- 45% might sound like quite a lot for an ability that is essentially a toggle, but considering that most hits take about 5-20% of your health in VR zones, this would be more of a supplement to whatever other healing you are using. It also would help dps deal with stray AoE's that hit them without missing a beat.

Passives

Forceful: Current - Light and Heavy attacks deal 25% damage to 1 adjacent enemy.
Proposed - Same, except effect abilities as well. *Aoe abilities can only effect ones not hit by the ability*

Heavy Weapons: Current - Sword (5% dmg increase), Maul (static armor decrease), Axe (bleed)
Proposed - Sword is fine, but change Maul to a % of armor decreased *built up to, not instant after a single hit.* Make the Axe bleeds smaller, but able to stack.

Balanced Blade: Current - 20% cost reduction for 2 handed abilities.
Proposed - Keep as is.

Arcane Fighter: Current - 100% chance increase to activate status effects.
Proposed - Same but add a reduction to the cool down of the effects.

Battle Rush: Current - 30% stamina regeneration boost after killing an enemy.
Proposed - Change to take effect after a critical hit.

Overall these changes would allow 2 handed to have quite the damage boost and a bit more usability in difficult content while allowing them the ability to have vastly different morphs. The numbers might need tweaking, but over all I tried to keep it some what reasonable. Feedback is welcome.
Edited by Gravis on June 25, 2014 9:53PM
  • SirPuppingtonVonHat
    SirPuppingtonVonHat
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    I've had some similar thoughts about the two handed line, and was thinking about making a thread just like this one. Kudos on a good write-up!

    Some thoughts:
    Cleave/Brawler/Carve: On one hand, I like the bleed that these have, but on the other, it really doesn't do much at present. So I would be okay with truncating the bleed into up-front damage. Can't comment on Brawler, since I've never really used it. Carve could end up being a nightmare for balancing; on one hand, less damage does make it weaker, but greatly increased ultimate gain (and it builds ultimate fast as it is) could offset that. Finding the sweet spot between being a fluffy skill that doesn't do much and enabling near 100% ultimate uptime would not be an enviable job.

    Charge/Stampede/Rush: Charge and Rush are great where they are, and I agree that any changes should be limited to quality of life. For stampede, what would a disarm be? I don't think that it should throw the weapon on the floor, but a forced bar swap would be very interesting.

    Uppercut/Dizzying/Wrecking: Uppercut needs a lot of the changes you suggest, although I don't think the innate increase in damage is necessary. The decreased cast time most certainly is, and the bonus damage against targets uneffected by CC is an interesting idea. I just have to wonder how that would interact with CC-prevention abilities like immovable.

    Reverse Slash/Executioner/Reverse Slice: I don't think that boosting the ability up to 400% and added cost is necessary, but I wholeheartedly agree that these should start scaling upward as soon as the enemy starts losing health (its an idea that I had myself). If Uppercut is supossed to be 2H's super-bursty nuke, then this should be our long sustained combat option. The change to Executioners added effect is also cool, but I don't think you really need to change whats already there very much. I like your version of Reverse Slice, it opens up the possibility of an AoE focus much better than the current version.

    Momentum/Forward/Rally: This is an interesting take on the ability, but I could see it being highly prone to bugs due to circumventing the weapon cap. I'm also hesitant to let the weapon damage attribute go so high, since that could have unintended consequences. Also not a huge fan of the giant cost increase, and I have mixed thoughts on the duration increase (really want it, don't know if I should get it). It might just be easier to have the ability boost crit chance instead of weapon damage. Fully support the changes to Forward Momentum and Rally.

    Passives: First three are fine, although I would also like Forceful to increase critical hit damage as well to make it useful in single target fights (this would be icing on the cake).

    For Arcane Fighter, I have the crazy idea that it should also effect the frequency of abilities with a percent chance of triggering an effect, like Crystal Fragments, Silver Bolts, Evil Hunter, etc. It would give some cool synergy with skills outside of the 2H tree, and would really enforce the idea that wielding a 2H weapon is about slow, explosive hits that spray giblets all over the ceiling.

    I'm hesitant to link Battle Rush with critical hits, since I'm not too fond of turning anything into a god-stat. That said, don't have any ideas that are much better.


    TL;DR: I have some minor stylistic disagreements with OP's proposal. That said, I would accept them in a heartbeat and rejoice if they went live. So again, nice work. :D
    The Psijic Order
  • Gravis
    Gravis
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    Thank you for the feedback, even though I have since thought of other changes, I have decided to not add them in since that would add too much to balance, and leaving it as is by itself would be difficult.

    Your concern for the game balance is a good one, and Carve indeed would have to be monitored heavily. Though, perhaps they could also change Carve to only effect up to say, 3 targets, so that they can control just how fast that ult generation is.

    As for Momentum, think of it as a guilty pleasure, go ahead, want the duration boost, and changes aside, that damage boost, you wants it! Which is why I have actually been thinking that only a 50% cost boost when it had a 100% duration boost, just seems off. Perhaps 75% cost boost to make it still viable, but make it an active decision to trade that much stamina for it.
  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    The following was part of a larger reply in the game developer discussion thread about stamina builds, but it seems appropriate as a brief comment for this thread...

    Given that they are large, two-handed weapons swung with great force, what about this change to the first passive for Two Handed weapons:

    Forceful: Light and heavy attacks with Two-Handed weapons deal 13%/25% splash damage to 1 nearby enemy. Heavy attacks have a 50% chance to stun both targets for 5 seconds.

    Or maybe this version:

    Forceful: Light and heavy attacks with Two-Handed weapons deal 13%/25% splash damage to 1 nearby enemy. Heavy attacks have a 75% chance to stun the primary target for 5 seconds.

    I am not saying those ought to be the exact numbers for either example. Maybe they are too high for the odds of a stun. Whatever the numbers, the general concept of adding a decent chance for a stun kind of makes sense from a "being hit with a very large weapon with a long wind-up" perspective, and it would help with the player character being a target during that windup for multiple blows.
    Edited by tinythinker on July 11, 2014 9:45PM
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  • Cody
    Cody
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    Give the skill line some block penetration. a passive that allows you to ignore 15-20% of an opponents block, while draining additional stamina. or put it in as an ability. This would make people with 2H weapons seem more fearsome, especially to players with a shield that like to block 90% of the fight.
  • Khivas_Carrick
    Khivas_Carrick
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    For the love of Talos ZoS, please listen to the original poster here and implement these changes. Hell, buff Two Handed weapons in anyway you see fit, as long as it's a buff because I quit a few months back and I'm returning and seeing threads like these.

    It's freaking scary man since my favorite weapon type are 2handers XD
    Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!
  • Cody
    Cody
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    For the love of Talos ZoS, please listen to the original poster here and implement these changes. Hell, buff Two Handed weapons in anyway you see fit, as long as it's a buff because I quit a few months back and I'm returning and seeing threads like these.

    It's freaking scary man since my favorite weapon type are 2handers XD
    sometimes it just makes no sense. I can understand a shield blocking my giant two handed sword, but how the heck does a freaking STAFF block it? A STAFF.
    Edited by Cody on August 16, 2014 5:01AM
  • Thejollygreenone
    Thejollygreenone
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    NookyZooky wrote: »
    For the love of Talos ZoS, please listen to the original poster here and implement these changes. Hell, buff Two Handed weapons in anyway you see fit, as long as it's a buff because I quit a few months back and I'm returning and seeing threads like these.

    It's freaking scary man since my favorite weapon type are 2handers XD
    sometimes it just makes no sense. I can understand a shield blocking my giant two handed sword, but how the heck does a freaking STAFF block it? A STAFF.

    I feel like a system of block-breaking should be put in place, it would greatly improve ability to counter the constant-blocking epidemic we see in PvP.

    For example, I would personally enjoy it if a system like this were in place:
    Enemy blocking can be broken in the following ways:

    With shield and talented:
    -Heavy attacks from 1h/shield and DW users set the player off balance for 2 seconds, and takes away their ability to block for 2 seconds.
    -Heavy attacks from 2h users with proper talents set the player off balance for 3 seconds and takes away their ability to block for 3 seconds, and adds a 1 second stun. Without the talent, 2h heavy attacks behave the same as 1h/shield and DW.
    -Heavy attacks from Frost staff/Fire staff/Bow users won't set off balance or take away ability to block, but will drain stamina at an increased burst-oriented rate.
    -Heavy attacks from Lightning/Resto staff users won't be able to set off balance or take away ability to block, but will drain stamina at an increased rate per tick, netting more stamina drained than Frost staff/Fire staff/Bow bonus.

    Without shield:
    -Heavy attacks from 1h/shield and DW users stun for 2 seconds, set off balance for 2 seconds, and adds inability to block for 2 seconds (in case blocker uses break free).
    -Heavy attacks from 2h users, when talented, stun for 3 seconds, set off balance for 2 seconds, and adds inability to block for 3 seconds(in case blocker uses break free).
    -Heavy attacks from Frost staff/Fire staff/Bow users will set the player off balance for 2 seconds, and adds inability to block for 2 seconds.
    -Heavy attacks from Lightning staff/Resto staff users won't be able to set off balance, or take away ability to block, but will drain stamina at an alarming rate per tick, netting more stamina than any other weapon type.

    Talents to reduce guard breaking on self would be in 1h/shield line, and MAYBE in the heavy armor line, while talents to increase guard breaking on enemies would solely be in the 2h line.

    Such a change as this is aimed specifically giving an advantage to 2h users against physically defensive enemies that as of yet doesn't exist in eso, whereas it was quite a prevalent factor in previous tes games, which is why I personally would like to see it done, being a fan of previous tes games, and a current 2h user :)
  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    A block-breaking or block-reducing mechanic seems like it would be a good fit for 2 handed weapons.

    Heavy weapons like greatswords, great axes, and heavy hammers were generally used because of their crushing force against armored opponents.

    This really isn't reflected currently in game.
  • Cody
    Cody
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    Varicite wrote: »
    A block-breaking or block-reducing mechanic seems like it would be a good fit for 2 handed weapons.

    Heavy weapons like greatswords, great axes, and heavy hammers were generally used because of their crushing force against armored opponents.

    This really isn't reflected currently in game.

    agreed. right now, with my 2H character, I may as well be using a normal sword. every single thing in the game can block 95% of it. its ridiculous. heck it does not stop with 2H weapons. a bow, sword, or a staff should not be able to block arrows and spells as well as they do. it, again, is ridiculous. You know how much I laugh when someone with a staff manages to block most of the damage from my arrows?(from behind in fact) last I checked, a staff was not that good at blocking, nor was a lone one handed weapon or a bow.
    Edited by Cody on August 21, 2014 4:20AM
  • Khivas_Carrick
    Khivas_Carrick
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    NookyZooky wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    A block-breaking or block-reducing mechanic seems like it would be a good fit for 2 handed weapons.

    Heavy weapons like greatswords, great axes, and heavy hammers were generally used because of their crushing force against armored opponents.

    This really isn't reflected currently in game.

    agreed. right now, with my 2H character, I may as well be using a normal sword. every single thing in the game can block 95% of it. its ridiculous. heck it does not stop with 2H weapons. a bow, sword, or a staff should not be able to block arrows and spells as well as they do. it, again, is ridiculous. You know how much I laugh when someone with a staff manages to block most of the damage from my arrows?(from behind in fact) last I checked, a staff was not that good at blocking, nor was a lone one handed weapon or a bow.

    This^
    Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!
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