Stop incrementally increasing the level cap. Stop it. Just stop.

Malveria · August 2014

I honestly don't know what the logic behind increasing the level cap is in such small, but frequent stages, but I'm not seeing it. Every single person I've spoken to about it does not want this change. Moving from VR10, to VR 12, to VR 14 in less than six months is ridiculous. The reasons for this are numerous, especially in PVP:

PVP becomes a rat race once again, where people are scrambling to get to the top level, get the sky shards, complete the quests, get the skill points needed to make sure they and their faction doesn't lose the edge against others.

Upgrading gear, especially gear that is a drop chance, to top vet legendary level is nigh unto impossible in this period of time.

Upgrade mats are expensive, and for people that have more than one character upgraded to top Vet level with good gear, PVE or PVP, is a laborious task. Getting the skills, the upgrade mats through refining chance, hirelings, or buying the materials in open world trade (which you encourage) strips a large portion of the enjoyment away for people. One piece of gear requires eight legendary mats to upgrade, and assuming you buy even half, that's 12k per item, 60k for a complete set, not including weapons.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for someone who games, say, two to three hours a day.

Please, Zenimax, listen to your player base. Please stop increasing the level cap like that. Release your content, fine. Release areas and quests and whatever you want. But leave the level cap for AT LEAST six months at a time.

Please.

And player base, please voice your agreement.

Potenza · August 2014

Yea but, everyone at endgame was screaming they were bored.

Mission · August 2014

Well guess I just invalidated your post. Cause I enjoy that they are adding levels, yes levels..I don't care that people dont call they levels and say that the max level is 50. I love constantly being able to level. So, I am glad they are continually adding more.

Illumous · August 2014

Less frequent level updates where the increase are more substantial. I really hate the 2 ranks every 2-3 months... It's too frequent, especially as a PvP player.

Ragefist · August 2014

Zenimax does listen to its playerbase. We dont all share your vision of "race to levelcap - geargrind - hand around capitol city and complain about lack of content"

Legendary is tough ey? Well that why we call it legendary. Its a choice, you dont have to upgrade all your stuff. Keyword you got right is INCREMENTAL. It doesnt make anyone overpowered, tho minmaxers can loose their heads around it.

Just relax, take a deep breath and try to enjoy the game

Super_Sonico · August 2014

I want this change.

I want experience and level increases as rewards for engaging new content. I like to see my character advance and grow as she faces new challenges.

Your argument based on PvP is invalid with the mechanism of level scaling. A race to the top is perceived as fun by many of the players.

Illuvatarr · August 2014

Problem is a set of vr12 legendary gear currently costs about 250k gold. The frequency of these level increases needs to slow down. I completely agree.

Muletide · August 2014

Actually, my voice is the voice of disagreement. If there is one thing that will make me cancel a subscription, it's sitting for a year on the same level cap waiting for the next xpac.

Nestor · August 2014

Thing is, no matter where they set the level cap, some players, perhaps most PvP players, will race to the cap.

While I like gaining new abilities and buffs over time, we don't need to have Levels to do this. We can gain new skills or perks or buffs that don't require levels at all to achieve.

KhajitFurTrader · August 2014

Strange, last thing I heard was that VR will go away completely and be replaced by the Champion system. So, in a sense, they've already decided to stop. Now what? ^_^

Hadria · August 2014

Nestor wrote: »

Thing is, no matter where they set the level cap, some players, perhaps most PvP players, will race to the cap.

While I like gaining new abilities and buffs over time, we don't need to have Levels to do this. We can gain new skills or perks or buffs that don't require levels at all to achieve.

I agree with it being the pvpers racing to cap. They need to stop it! That is all.

But but play how I want blah blah this is what pvpers do and it ruins everything in every game.

Audigy · August 2014

Sorry OP but I disagree with you.

I am tired of raid or die MMOs so everything that actually changes that pattern is more than welcome.

By adding new VR ranks, the Champion levels in future or new zones those of us who don't raid have something to do and this is just as important as your raid content.

WOW offers all you want, sit at the same progress for two years and count the days until 5 more levels are added just to be bored again after a few weeks - no thanks

Illumous · August 2014

Hadria wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Thing is, no matter where they set the level cap, some players, perhaps most PvP players, will race to the cap.

While I like gaining new abilities and buffs over time, we don't need to have Levels to do this. We can gain new skills or perks or buffs that don't require levels at all to achieve.

I agree with it being the pvpers racing to cap. They need to stop it! That is all.

But but play how I want blah blah this is what pvpers do and it ruins everything in every game.

Nice that all you PvE players have gotten content in the last major patches and we've gotten none. That's fair.

Nox_Aeterna · August 2014

I agree that there was no reason to upgrade the VR until they finally now change it to champ lvls , which they already said they would do anyway.

The only ONE group of players that benefit from this call are the PvE group players.

Anyone outside this is already writing their name down for another grind till they reach max lvl as fast as possible.

This content is irrelevant to many players , they dont want to do it at all , but the 2VR matter.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

They have still not been clear on whether they will ultimately remove vet ranks or not.

No other games increases the level cap like this. Including games that are all about the grind. You get a 5 level increase once or twice a year. That's it. At that time you can grind up those levels and then upgrade your gear afterwards.

Constantly raising the level cap might appease what is left of the content locusts in the game but some of us want to enjoy playing instead of constantly being forced into this tedious treadmill.

I just stopped using legendary mats and started selling them because it is pointless to improve my gear. I'm starting to question making them purple either.

And with this increase we are not getting anymore crafted sets, while we get more and more pve achieved sets, all of which are relevant and preferable in pvp. You HAVE to pve currently to be viable in pvp and that is ***.

Metrobius · August 2014

Mission wrote: »

Well guess I just invalidated your post. Cause I enjoy that they are adding levels, yes levels..I don't care that people dont call they levels and say that the max level is 50. I love constantly being able to level. So, I am glad they are continually adding more.

[snip]
The constant level cap increases seem like a very lazy means of adding content to me.
I suppose that you could equate it to raiding tiers in other games. I don't know if the power increase of 2 vet ranks is way more than the increase of a tier of raid gear but I suspect it is.
Its the same with the storage system. They claim to use storage to limit our crafting, by making it tedious and boring. Nice. It just seems like some lazy design choices to me.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Super_Sonico · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

They have still not been clear on whether they will ultimately remove vet ranks or not.

No other games increases the level cap like this. Including games that are all about the grind. You get a 5 level increase once or twice a year. That's it. At that time you can grind up those levels and then upgrade your gear afterwards.

Then go play another game. I'm glad this game is different. I want evolving content.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Constantly raising the level cap might appease what is left of the content locusts in the game but some of us want to enjoy playing instead of constantly being forced into this tedious treadmill.

It's your choice to view it as a 'tedious treadmill'. It's actually not for a lot of players. We enjoy the content by playing the game, just like we did with every other game in the TES series.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

I just stopped using legendary mats and started selling them because it is pointless to improve my gear. I'm starting to question making them purple either.

And with this increase we are not getting anymore crafted sets, while we get more and more pve achieved sets, all of which are relevant and preferable in pvp. You HAVE to pve currently to be viable in pvp and that is ***.

This game is not based on PvP play. PvP is an extension from a base game built on The Elder Scrolls series which has much more to it. If you want a game based on PvP, go play WoW or CoD. The heart of this game is the Elder Scrolls content, which is not centered in PvP but in PvE. It really sounds like you should go back to WoW.

Audigy · August 2014

Metrobius wrote: »

Mission wrote: »

Well guess I just invalidated your post. Cause I enjoy that they are adding levels, yes levels..I don't care that people dont call they levels and say that the max level is 50. I love constantly being able to level. So, I am glad they are continually adding more.

Your post comes off so childishly beligerant that I can't even take it seriously. I hope either you didn't intend that, or you're 13 years old.

The constant level cap increases seem like a very lazy means of adding content to me.
I suppose that you could equate it to raiding tiers in other games. I don't know if the power increase of 2 vet ranks is way more than the increase of a tier of raid gear but I suspect it is.
Its the same with the storage system. They claim to use storage to limit our crafting, by making it tedious and boring. Nice. It just seems like some lazy design choices to me.

The VR system is the total opposite to raid tiers at WOW or similar MMOs.

With VRs and in future Champion points you can actually improve your char further with every new update and don't need to grind dungeons or raids at all. Its their answer to the raid or die philosophy that ruined MMOs.

Right now the VR system is not fully working and they know that, that's why the Champion points are coming but the basic idea is great. To improve your char every 2 or 3 months is wonderful, no more waiting for two full years to learn a new recipe for your professions, no more two years until you can go to a new zone and get new quests etc.

I think that many of those who complain don't fully get the idea behind the raise and the new zone as you only know the WOW system where new gear is added every few months that you then grind in the same boring dungeon that you grinded the last set already.

SirAndy · August 2014

Illumous wrote: »

Nice that all you PvE players have gotten content in the last major patches and we've gotten none. That's fair.

@Illumous
And here i thought the only guys i ever saw in Craglorn were people grinding to VR12 to get back into PvP as soon as possible.

Not sure what game you were playing but i hardly ever saw any PvE players in Craglorn at all and i don't expect that to be any different in upper, lower, middle or sideways Craglorn.
;-)

Nestor · August 2014

Audigy wrote: »

I think that many of those who complain don't fully get the idea behind the raise and the new zone as you only know the WOW system where new gear is added every few months that you then grind in the same boring dungeon that you grinded the last set already.

I think what most that complaint are the ones who need to stop PvPing to raise levels, and those who waited until VR12 to make their Epic or Legendary set of gear. Those Tempers are quite rare and I myself will not use them until my last set of armor.

BTW, I am used to reaching some level in TES games and pretty much staying there. This is the first game where I have to level or I die (more often)

Skafsgaard · August 2014

Super_Sonico wrote: »

Your argument based on PvP is invalid with the mechanism of level scaling. A race to the top is perceived as fun by many of the players.

It's a boring necessity to be competitive. If I could do it in a weeks time in pvp fine. Having to resort to Hircine grinding really is annoying.

Illumous · August 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

Illumous wrote: »

Nice that all you PvE players have gotten content in the last major patches and we've gotten none. That's fair.

@Illumous
And here i thought the only guys i ever saw in Craglorn were people grinding to VR12 to get back into PvP as soon as possible.

Not sure what game you were playing but i hardly ever saw any PvE players in Craglorn at all and i don't expect that to be any different in upper, lower, middle or sideways Craglorn.
;-)

So your saying the developers made Craglorn with the intent of it being a grinding zone instead of a group PvE zone?

rekina · August 2014

I can't wait for canceling my sub for this. When vet 14 goes live I wouldn't hesitate even a second before unsubbing.

Nestor · August 2014

Illumous wrote: »

So your saying the developers made Craglorn with the intent of it being a grinding zone instead of a group PvE zone?

What the Developers intended and what the players do with it are usually two different things.

And, if it's a Public Dungeon it's Grind Time for me. But I am farming loot so my crafters can get the last 5 or 6 levels in WW, Cloth and BS. Then I can start selling my loot rather than deconstructing it all.

Morduil · August 2014

The trouble with raising the level cap with every content release is that it makes all previous top tier content out of date. If you keep the level cap static for all but major expansions, then when you release new dungeons, trials etc. you broaden the endgame. As it is, the Devs are currently replacing one rather limited range of options with another.

Given, for example, the amount of time it takes for a team of programmers to create a trial, surely it is more sensible and economical NOT to make it obsolete within three months?

Maverick827 · August 2014

Morduil wrote: »

The trouble with raising the level cap with every content release is that it makes all previous top tier content out of date. If you keep the level cap static for all but major expansions, then when you release new dungeons, trials etc. you broaden the endgame. As it is, the Devs are currently replacing one rather limited range of options with another.

Given, for example, the amount of time it takes for a team of programmers to create a trial, surely it is more sensible and economical NOT to make it obsolete within three months?

Yeah, this is pretty much MMO Endgame PvE 101 stuff. VR12 Craglorn content will be useless now, and most people haven't even stepped foot inside yet.

This is stuff that WoW got right from day one when the genre was still growing up. How someone manages to get it wrong a decade later is amazing in a bad way.

Skafsgaard · August 2014

Didnt they say that if u revisit vr12 trials after doing the new one, something changed? Id assume it means taht it will still, in someway, be 'endgame'

Ive only tried a trial once to check it out and it was enough, since I didnt like the time being the important thing and prefer pvp anyway. but when i get bored by blue trains on haderus would be nice to try aa even if im vr14 tho

This is an honest question/obeservation, no flaming intended

DDuke · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

Morduil wrote: »

The trouble with raising the level cap with every content release is that it makes all previous top tier content out of date. If you keep the level cap static for all but major expansions, then when you release new dungeons, trials etc. you broaden the endgame. As it is, the Devs are currently replacing one rather limited range of options with another.

Given, for example, the amount of time it takes for a team of programmers to create a trial, surely it is more sensible and economical NOT to make it obsolete within three months?

Yeah, this is pretty much MMO Endgame PvE 101 stuff. VR12 Craglorn content will be useless now, and most people haven't even stepped foot inside yet.

This is stuff that WoW got right from day one when the genre was still growing up. How someone manages to get it wrong a decade later is amazing in a bad way.

Agreed. I really hope the Champion system will introduce this kind of progression (and soon, preferably pre-Murkmire).

I was somewhat anticipating a VR cap increase with this patch, but some small part of me kept the hope alive that they'd just add another layer of gear progression. Those hopes were brutally crushed

MasterSpatula · August 2014

The sense of achievement of reaching the level cap and getting top-level gear is pretty meaningless if the goalpost moves every few weeks. Keeping the level cap in one place for too long may be a bad idea, but raising it this often just invalidates the accomplishment.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Malveria wrote: »

I honestly don't know what the logic behind increasing the level cap is in such small, but frequent stages, but I'm not seeing it. Every single person I've spoken to about it does not want this change. Moving from VR10, to VR 12, to VR 14 in less than six months is ridiculous. The reasons for this are numerous, especially in PVP:

PVP becomes a rat race once again, where people are scrambling to get to the top level, get the sky shards, complete the quests, get the skill points needed to make sure they and their faction doesn't lose the edge against others.

Upgrading gear, especially gear that is a drop chance, to top vet legendary level is nigh unto impossible in this period of time.

Upgrade mats are expensive, and for people that have more than one character upgraded to top Vet level with good gear, PVE or PVP, is a laborious task. Getting the skills, the upgrade mats through refining chance, hirelings, or buying the materials in open world trade (which you encourage) strips a large portion of the enjoyment away for people. One piece of gear requires eight legendary mats to upgrade, and assuming you buy even half, that's 12k per item, 60k for a complete set, not including weapons.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for someone who games, say, two to three hours a day.

Please, Zenimax, listen to your player base. Please stop increasing the level cap like that. Release your content, fine. Release areas and quests and whatever you want. But leave the level cap for AT LEAST six months at a time.

Please.

And player base, please voice your agreement.

Hahahahaha . its because these dudes cant actually fix the game and add relevant content at while develping the Console version. i knew this *** would happen , its more evidnece they have no intention of fixing the poor itemization. just increase the cap so we have to get the same gear we have only higher lvl

Audigy · August 2014

Morduil wrote: »

The trouble with raising the level cap with every content release is that it makes all previous top tier content out of date. If you keep the level cap static for all but major expansions, then when you release new dungeons, trials etc. you broaden the endgame. As it is, the Devs are currently replacing one rather limited range of options with another.

Given, for example, the amount of time it takes for a team of programmers to create a trial, surely it is more sensible and economical NOT to make it obsolete within three months?

What you say is not true.

Have you played WOW in the past 6 years? Every three or four months Blizzard releases a new raid tier. Everything else then automatically turns dead and becomes a ghost town and all items become useless.

I was trying to do a raid at Cata as I wanted the achievement and guess what... nobody was up for it because the new raid tier was already released.

At the VR system this wont happen that fast. You can do the VR1 or 10 or the 12 or the 14 and you will always have players around as its the level content that everyone has to go through.

"Endgame" has never been bright or large at WOW, it was always about 1 raid and nothing else.