Samadhi wrote: »

griszax wrote: »

Yeah and look what You need to do to achieve a little crit ( 20-30 % MAX ) for a short time or just 1 skill. If You really think that a player going full crit and wasting potion each time he want to have a CHANCE to crit on players that use impenetrable is fine then I guess You are the guy using full impenetrable and being happy of killing those crit builds.
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If You want to prove that that impenetrable is fine then build Your character for max crit and duel some good players in full impenetrable. Let me know how it went.

As a crit build Nightblade, yes I actively buff my crit in order to successfully crit on Impenetrable characters in combat.
If I didn't utilize my crit buff, I wouldn't actually be a crit build.
I've also had my Alchemy at level 50 to craft all my own potions since the first few weeks of game release; because I studied the crafts during Beta and came to the conclusion that Alchemy would help me most, so it was the first one I leveled.

People whine about Impenetrable because all builds use it but no one is willing to counter it.
The other traits need to be buffed to make them appealing and viable in PvP.
Impenetrable is fine; the other traits are the issue.

There is no "counter" to impenetrable It basicly makes crit builds to be worthless against people that use this trait which just FORCES people to go for other stats than crit - that is not countering, thats just running away from the problem.

If You are going crit build You are just wasting most of the potential You put into that build. It's just more effective to completely ignore crit and build for other useful stats.

You only say that because there is *** of people that don't use impenetrable YET. But when most of cyrodiil population gonna stack impen Your whole build gonna be worthless. You need to waste potion to have a 20-30 % chance for crit ? Your enemy on the other hand got much better stats which totally ruins the whole crit build idea.

I don't see this as balanced.

Draxys wrote: »

griszax wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

The funny thing is, Even with this stat in PvP, I still crit a crap ton of people...so its not like Crit is going to waste...

Lets be honest most people are clueless in pvp. This thread is about those decent pvp'ers that actually use good gear and builds.

So you want them to nerf Impen so you can have an easier time against the remaining PvPers that aren't included in your "most people"?

I don't even use crit in my build, so You missed the point. Tell me what is the point of going crit build when You can get maximum 20-30 % of crit for a short of time (potion, skills etc) against enemy who use impenetrable ? There is no point at all.

Samadhi wrote: »

simply nerfing Impentrable will turn the game into crit build or get out.

Exactly.

griszax wrote: »

@Samadhi‌ If You are fine with impenetrable then make some videos dueling people with impenetrable. Because crit builds work fine for fighting people w/o that trait. By going full crit build You basicly lower Your damage output versus good players.

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It takes me 8-12 hours to upload around 20 seconds of video, on a connection that's capped at 30 gigs per month total traffic.
How about you make some videos of yourself losing to people on Impenetrable build and players can give you some advice?

Stx wrote: »

Burst is already high enough in this game. I think being able to use Impen is a good thing.

I would however be in favor of changing how it works. If Impenetrable reduced critical damage taken instead of critical chance, then it would still reduce burst by a lot, but it wouldn't cripple crit builds like my melee sorcerer that I am working on.

So lets say someone who currently has 70% critical reduction, would instead reduce critical damage taken by 70%, which means criticals would do almost the same amount of damage as normal hits. (This also makes it so Nightblades wouldn't have any sort of advantage with their +100% crit skill, even if its not really that OP).

I'd only support a change to Impenetrable to have it focused on reducing critical damage if we get new sources of building to increase critical damage in order to counter it.

What I'd really like to see is Sorceror's Critical Surge changed to Healing Surge with a 50% chance to provide 50% of damage as healing on all attacks.
Then I would have more flexibility with my PvE Sorceror, because I wouldn't be limited to building for crit to receive self-healing from my buff. This also would provide self-healing to Sorcerors in PvP, even against full Impenetrable players.

Samadhi wrote: »

The other traits need to be buffed to make them appealing and viable in PvP.
Impenetrable is fine; the other traits are the issue.

The most comparable other trait would be Divines with Thief mundus stone, which increases your chance to crit on other players. It has been some time since I tried this, but IIRC wearing all Divines gear with Thief stone increases your crit chance about 14-15%. Wearing all impenetrable reduces the chance for crits against you by 70%.

It is so much more powerful than the other traits, it would seem more reasonable to nerf impen slightly and buff the others a bit, but who knows, perhaps a crazy 5x buff to all the other other traits might be fun.

Samadhi wrote: »

With 60% base crit a Nightblade has 90% buffed chance to crit on Impenetrable builds without the need for a potion.

Let's put this into perspective.

To get that base 60%, the NB has to spend every ounce possible on increasing his crit. Set bonuses, weapon traits, mundus stone, everything.

For all that effort, the nightblade gets nothing at all, unless he also spends 420 base magicka on shadowy disguise to do no damage at all, except increasing his next attack's damage by 60%. One attack. Maybe. It still fails 10% or 20% of the time (depending on target having shield or not).

And, to make matters worse, the NB disappearing basically telegraphs "hey, i'm going to try and crit you, you better block!" - wasting another 50-80% of that effort.

That's an awful waste of resources.

If he instead spend his set bonuses, traits and mundus on something that works all the time, and spent those 420 magicka on an attack that actually does damage, he would be far better off.

Sharee wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

With 60% base crit a Nightblade has 90% buffed chance to crit on Impenetrable builds without the need for a potion.

Let's put this into perspective.

To get that base 60%, the NB has to spend every ounce possible on increasing his crit. Set bonuses, weapon traits, mundus stone, everything.

For all that effort, the nightblade gets nothing at all, unless he also spends 420 base magicka on shadowy disguise to do no damage at all, except increasing his next attack's damage by 60%. One attack. Maybe. It still fails 10% or 20% of the time (depending on target having shield or not)

That's an awful waste of resources.

If he instead spend his set bonuses, traits and mundus on something that works all the time, and spent those 420 magicka on an attack that actually does damage, he would be far better off.

With some of the new sets out there, you can hit 60% crit a bit easier. I'm at 60% and my sets focus on weapon damage. Granted, I'm using the Thief Mundus and Precise Traits, but I dont run Divines or go for crit set bonus'.

Jaxom wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

With 60% base crit a Nightblade has 90% buffed chance to crit on Impenetrable builds without the need for a potion.

Let's put this into perspective.

To get that base 60%, the NB has to spend every ounce possible on increasing his crit. Set bonuses, weapon traits, mundus stone, everything.

For all that effort, the nightblade gets nothing at all, unless he also spends 420 base magicka on shadowy disguise to do no damage at all, except increasing his next attack's damage by 60%. One attack. Maybe. It still fails 10% or 20% of the time (depending on target having shield or not)

That's an awful waste of resources.

If he instead spend his set bonuses, traits and mundus on something that works all the time, and spent those 420 magicka on an attack that actually does damage, he would be far better off.

With some of the new sets out there, you can hit 60% crit a bit easier. I'm at 60% and my sets focus on weapon damage. Granted, I'm using the Thief Mundus and Precise Traits, but I dont run Divines or go for crit set bonus'.

Yeah, critical rating isn't really a mutually exclusive stat from other forms of damage increase.
I build the biggest chunk of my critical rating out of Medium Armour passive, but have other sources such as weapon trait, mundus stone, and class passives.
I build the biggest chunk of my Spell Power and Magicka off of my gear and jewelery enchantments, which can't be used for Crit rating anyway.
I'm able to do all-around damage and crit pretty much whenever I want to. The key is simply choosing which skills I want to crit with.

The only thing that genuinely bothers me with Impenetrable is that it is a part of all builds. I should be having to use my crit buff to ensure crits on tanky characters built to counter me; instead I use my crit buff to ensure crits on casters in Light Armour, because they have no better trait option to use for their spells instead.
This would be remedied by making the other traits better for PvP.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

The other traits need to be buffed to make them appealing and viable in PvP.
Impenetrable is fine; the other traits are the issue.

The most comparable other trait would be Divines with Thief mundus stone, which increases your chance to crit on other players. It has been some time since I tried this, but IIRC wearing all Divines gear with Thief stone increases your crit chance about 14-15%. Wearing all impenetrable reduces the chance for crits against you by 70%.

It is so much more powerful than the other traits, it would seem more reasonable to nerf impen slightly and buff the others a bit, but who knows, perhaps a crazy 5x buff to all the other other traits might be fun.

Thief gives me 5% increase to Spell and Weapon critical.
Full Blue quality Divines gear brings this value up to 6.9% increase.

The large difference, of course, being that Critical rate is available via Mundus, Armour passive skills, Weapon trait, Set bonuses, Class passive skills, Class active skills, Mages Guild (spell crit), and Critical potions.
Crit resistance is available via Impenetrable.

I stand corrected - it has been quite some time since I tried this with a crit build. I take it full divines legendary gear would only increase crit chance in the range of 2-3% compared to Thief stone without divines, does that sound about right? This seems trifling compared to full impen which reduces crit chance against you by 70%.

I understand your point about there being lots of other ways to increase crit and only one way to reduce crits against you; however, it is way out of line with all the other traits in terms of how much it impacts gameplay, at least on the PVP side.

I'd be really genuinely supportive of cutting Impenetrable's effect drastically, if crit resistance were available through other means.
For example, knock Impenetrable down to 35% for a full set, but give Nightblades crit resistance buff as part of Shadow Barrier 4 second passive; give Sorcerer a crit resistance buff as part of Lightning Form; give Templar a crit resistance buff as part of Rune Focus; and give Dragonknight one on Coagulating Blood.
Options that would add depth and timing to gameplay rather than simply remove depth and timing from gameplay.

griszax wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

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To get that base 60%, the NB has to spend every ounce possible on increasing his crit. Set bonuses, weapon traits, mundus stone, everything.

For all that effort, the nightblade gets nothing at all, unless he also spends 420 base magicka on shadowy disguise to do no damage at all, except increasing his next attack's damage by 60%. One attack
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Correct, this is the way my crit build works.
I'm perfectly fine with that; I actually find it enjoyable having to actually time and use my buffs when I want to crit, rather than just critting constantly due to overpowering my target's stats (as it is with players that don't build for Impenetrable).
I also recognize and respect that some players want to simply be able to overpower target stats, and need Impenetrable nerfed to do that.
I'm also fine with Impenetrable's effect being cut in half though. I could drool on the keyboard and hammer on skills without needing to time my buffs anymore and simply giggle at the crits I'd get.
When everyone starts calling for nerfs to damage because an Impenetrable nerf makes them all drop like flies though, that's when I'll have an issue.

Seems like You are missing the point of this whole thread. I'm gonna try to put this as simple as it can be. You have to use every set bonus /mundus / weapon trait and even use skills / pots to achieve high crit enough to have a chance ( 20 % -30 % ) for a critical hit. Now go make some math how much actual damage boost You get. Then change those stats for weapon damage / stamina or w/e You actually need and come back.

Don't forget You can't keep that 100 % crit for a long time so whenever a fight last for longer Your build just get's worse over time.

If You are on EU we could arrange some duels and see how good is that crit build of Yours vs impenetrable user

Overcharge Spell Damage, fall just shy of overcharged Magicka, still have high enough crit rate for a crit build.
I don't use any weapon attacks on my bar (all Class skills), and I only left-click to deplete Stamina from people that are blocking, or to knock-down someone who is Off-Balance.

I only buff crit for skills that I want to crit with, such as my Ultimate, or a finisher if need be. I get freebie crits from the buff when I CC someone, because Nightblade needs to go invisible to activate CC.

I'm on NA, though it's cute that you're so interested in watching me fight. I don't even consider myself to be skilled.

griszax wrote: »

@Samadhi‌ Sooo basicly You put so much effort to get high crit just to have a low chance on critting with ultimate or finisher on guys with impenetrable ?:P Don't You see how bad critical actually is ?
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90% is a "low chance" now.
Go figure.

griszax wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

griszax wrote: »

@Samadhi‌ Sooo basicly You put so much effort to get high crit just to have a low chance on critting with ultimate or finisher on guys with impenetrable ?:P Don't You see how bad critical actually is ?
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90% is a "low chance" now.
Go figure.

And now fight a 700-800 impen guy. 10-20 % is a low chance for such a huge investment. You got what is the problem in that ?:P

60 (base crit) + 100 (crit buff) = 160% crit rate, with no potion
160 (buffed crit rate) - 70 (Impenetrable build, no shield) = 90% crit rate against someone with 700 Impenetrable.

Even on my AoE/caster build with a whopping 9% base crit, I still have 39% chance to crit on someone in 7 pieces of Impenetrable just by buffing.

griszax wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

griszax wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

griszax wrote: »

@Samadhi‌ Sooo basicly You put so much effort to get high crit just to have a low chance on critting with ultimate or finisher on guys with impenetrable ?:P Don't You see how bad critical actually is ?
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90% is a "low chance" now.
Go figure.

And now fight a 700-800 impen guy. 10-20 % is a low chance for such a huge investment. You got what is the problem in that ?:P

60 (base crit) + 100 (crit buff) = 160% crit rate, with no potion
160 (buffed crit rate) - 70 (Impenetrable build, no shield) = 90% crit rate against someone with 700 Impenetrable.

Even on my AoE/caster build with a whopping 9% base crit, I still have 39% chance to crit on someone in 7 pieces of Impenetrable just by buffing.

You can actually go beyond 100 % crit rate ? Because if You can't (never tested ) then I don't see how You get that 160 % crit rate.

Yes you can. Nightblade Shadowy Disguise buff adds 100% Spell Crit and Weapon Crit for the duration, stacked on top of base crit stats.

griszax wrote: »

@Samadhi‌ Just tested and yeah You are right. Still only nightblades got so huge (100% ) buff to critical hit and thats just for one single attack. Rest of the time Your 60 % crit which You got while sacrificing more useful stats is just useless. Still don't see the problem in that ?

When I'm on my crit build, I don't go into combat expecting to crit on anything but the skills I choose to by buffing. A good 40% of the crit rate comes simply from Medium Armour, slotted Nightblade skills, and having 2 daggers equipped; so I don't view much of what I do as a sacrifice, as it is the way I actively wanted to play Nightblade. I enjoy the challenge and need for proper timing.
This is part of why I am fine with making Impenetrable have half it's current value. I would have 100% buffed crit chance against Impenetrable players without having to put any effort into building for crit; alternatively, I could maintain that effort and have the ability to crit even on skills that I am not aiming to.
I also play the crit build expecting to be weaker than Light Armoured Staff-build caster players to begin with though, so I admit my view may be skewed.

On my caster build, I don't build for crit, but can still have chance to crit on Impenetrable characters just by buffing. My Shadowy Disguise buff is the source of single-target CC, as well as a prerequisite for buffing Spell Damage, so the crits are just a pleasant bonus at that point.

I totally respect that other classes have more difficulty with Impenetrable than I do as a Nightblade; however, I do not want to start seeing cries for Nightblade nerfs because of too many crits once Impenetrable gets nerfed. I see larger issue in that.

Buffing the other armour traits would provide diversity, tone down the frequency of Impenetrable builds, and (ideally) give me a better option to use as a DPS character.
I like ideas that add to the game rather than take away from what is already there.

Strakand wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

griszax wrote: »

Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.

Yes, when it is easy to stack nearly 100% crit chance. Having an insane amount of crit in PvE is not game breaking, but having it in PvP will just greatly increase the TTK rate which is not what the game needs.

Boost other traits, but dont nerf impenetrable.

Nobody here is complaining about the Crit percentage that is achievable in the game. The concern is that the current structure of impenetrable.

griszax wrote: »

@Samadhi‌ Just tested and yeah You are right. Still only nightblades got so huge (100% ) buff to critical hit and thats just for one single attack. Rest of the time Your 60 % crit which You got while sacrificing more useful stats is just useless. Still don't see the problem in that ?

It seems you think its fine to crit 60-100% of the time.
You really dont see a problem with that either ?

Until they seriously reduce the crit rate in this game they cant really nerf Impenetrable very much or it (like so many other games) turns into a constant crit fest.

Galrukh wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

griszax wrote: »

Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.

Yes, when it is easy to stack nearly 100% crit chance. Having an insane amount of crit in PvE is not game breaking, but having it in PvP will just greatly increase the TTK rate which is not what the game needs.

Boost other traits, but dont nerf impenetrable.

Nobody here is complaining about the Crit percentage that is achievable in the game. The concern is that the current structure of impenetrable.

griszax wrote: »

@Samadhi‌ Just tested and yeah You are right. Still only nightblades got so huge (100% ) buff to critical hit and thats just for one single attack. Rest of the time Your 60 % crit which You got while sacrificing more useful stats is just useless. Still don't see the problem in that ?

It seems you think its fine to crit 60-100% of the time.
You really dont see a problem with that either ?

Until they seriously reduce the crit rate in this game they cant really nerf Impenetrable very much or it (like so many other games) turns into a constant crit fest.

Noone said that and don't try to put words into my mouth. Right now with impen working as it is You can go full crit and have NO crits all the time and only get a SMALL chance with use of pots or skills giving additional crit. By going no crit and getting other stats You are actually doing more damage in cyrodiil right now. There is just no point to be using crit if You want to fight good players in cyrodiil.

You see a problem in that ?

I'm just gonna put it that way:

Sorcerer going for spellcrit

10 % ( LA ) + 10% + 7 % (wrath of the imperium 3pc + weapon trait ) + 8 % (wise mage 3 pc) + 4 % ( 4 pc twilight for crit and spelldmg) + 20 % (inner light) + 15 % (exploitation - only affected by dark magic targets) + 5 % (mundus) = 79 % crit without pot / 64 % crit on people not affected by dark magic.

So against 700 impen I would get wooping 9 % crit chance ONLY when the target is affected by dark magic and no chance at all against 800 impen .

Now we could add a potion to the mix ( 20% crit for 10 sec). That's a whole 29 % ( !!!) crit for 10 sec AND while the target is affected by dark magic on 700 impen.

I have no idea if that's the best armor sets You could go for crit but it seems like it for me.

Now You wasted every armor piece, mundus, weapon trait. Even have to use inner light and dark magic spells (basicly wasting slot skills) to achieve that silly 29 %.

Basicly going crit is just waste because how impenetrable works.

Now tell me You would go for crit with everyone running 700/800 impenetrable in cyrodiil ? I know there is lots of people that don't run impenetrable at all but that will change for sure when the slowpokes learn about this trait.