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ZoS: Was Impen designed to totally hose crit?
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So reducing crit damage by 70% would impact crit builds more than negating an attacking players crit chance? That makes zero sense. But, I can tell that you are a NB who uses abilities that give you auto-crit(which impenetrable does not block) and thus you don't want to be effected any changes here.
...
All characters can build to have the capacity to auto-crit from Sneak, regardless of class.
Buffing Impenetrable to reduce crit damage would nerf those players as well; it's not class specific.
Nightblade's Shadowy Disguise skill adds 100% crit rate to the base stats.
A Nightblade needs 70% base crit to "auto-crit" on an Impenetrable build with Shadowy Disguise buff.
A Nightblade with 0% base crit would only have a 30% chance to crit on a player with 70% Impenetrable after buffing Shadowy Disguise.
At least now I know why you want to buff Impenetrable to reduce crit damage.
Impenetrable is fine as it is; the other traits need to be made viable to PvP.Edited by Samadhi on August 18, 2014 7:05PM"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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c0rp✭✭✭✭✭
✭So reducing crit damage by 70% would impact crit builds more than negating an attacking players crit chance? That makes zero sense. But, I can tell that you are a NB who uses abilities that give you auto-crit(which impenetrable does not block) and thus you don't want to be effected any changes here.
...
Impenetrable is fine as it is; the other traits need to be made viable to PvP.
It most absolutely is not fine. There are numerous reasons throughout this thread as to why it is not.
Force weapon swap to have priority over EVERYTHING. Close enough.
Make stamina builds even with magicka builds.
Disable abilities while holding block.
Give us a REASON to do dungeons more than once.
Remove PVP AoE CAP. It is ruining Cyrodiil.
Fix/Remove Forward Camps. They are ruining Cyrodiil.
Impenetrability needs to REDUCE CRIT DAMAGE. Not negate entire builds.
Werewolf is not equal to Vamps/Bats.6 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So reducing crit damage by 70% would impact crit builds more than negating an attacking players crit chance? That makes zero sense. But, I can tell that you are a NB who uses abilities that give you auto-crit(which impenetrable does not block) and thus you don't want to be effected any changes here.
...
Impenetrable is fine as it is; the other traits need to be made viable to PvP.
It most absolutely is not fine. There are numerous reasons throughout this thread as to why it is not.
Impenetrable works fine, has multiple counters, and stops me from melting people instantly through an abundance of crits.
If the effect of Impenetrable gets reduced to 5% per gear piece at yellow refine, that is fine by me; I'll just kill people twice as quickly.
The real issue remains the fact that none of the other traits are worth using in PvP.
Change the other traits to something meaningful that people will build for, and the complaints about Impenetrable will be solved while also promoting build diversity.
This will also get rid of the issue that some of the traits on PvP gear sets are laughably bad.Edited by Samadhi on August 18, 2014 7:59PM"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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griszax✭✭✭So reducing crit damage by 70% would impact crit builds more than negating an attacking players crit chance? That makes zero sense. But, I can tell that you are a NB who uses abilities that give you auto-crit(which impenetrable does not block) and thus you don't want to be effected any changes here.
...
Impenetrable is fine as it is; the other traits need to be made viable to PvP.
It most absolutely is not fine. There are numerous reasons throughout this thread as to why it is not.
Impenetrable works fine, has multiple counters, and stops me from melting people instantly through an abundance of crits.
If the effect of Impenetrable gets reduced to 5% per gear piece at yellow refine, that is fine by me; I'll just kill people twice as quickly.
The real issue remains the fact that none of the other traits are worth using in PvP.
Change the other traits to something meaningful that people will build for, and the complaints about Impenetrable will be solved while also promoting build diversity.
This will also get rid of the issue that some of the traits on PvP gear sets are laughably bad.
Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.Edited by griszax on August 18, 2014 8:09PMSandriks EU Auriel's bow4 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭After 3.0 damage is a little crazy now...you can easily drop now in less then 2 secs without crit resists... I would like to damage dropped across the board...PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables1 -
Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So reducing crit damage by 70% would impact crit builds more than negating an attacking players crit chance? That makes zero sense. But, I can tell that you are a NB who uses abilities that give you auto-crit(which impenetrable does not block) and thus you don't want to be effected any changes here.
...
Impenetrable is fine as it is; the other traits need to be made viable to PvP.
It most absolutely is not fine. There are numerous reasons throughout this thread as to why it is not.
Impenetrable works fine, has multiple counters, and stops me from melting people instantly through an abundance of crits.
If the effect of Impenetrable gets reduced to 5% per gear piece at yellow refine, that is fine by me; I'll just kill people twice as quickly.
The real issue remains the fact that none of the other traits are worth using in PvP.
Change the other traits to something meaningful that people will build for, and the complaints about Impenetrable will be solved while also promoting build diversity.
This will also get rid of the issue that some of the traits on PvP gear sets are laughably bad.
Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.
Building for Weapon or Spell damage instead of crit.Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
Once a General, now a Citizen
Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!3 -
madangrypally✭✭✭✭Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.
Yes, when it is easy to stack nearly 100% crit chance. Having an insane amount of crit in PvE is not game breaking, but having it in PvP will just greatly increase the TTK rate which is not what the game needs.
Boost other traits, but dont nerf impenetrable.Edited by madangrypally on August 18, 2014 8:13PM6 -
Jaxom✭✭✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »So reducing crit damage by 70% would impact crit builds more than negating an attacking players crit chance? That makes zero sense. But, I can tell that you are a NB who uses abilities that give you auto-crit(which impenetrable does not block) and thus you don't want to be effected any changes here.
...
Impenetrable is fine as it is; the other traits need to be made viable to PvP.
It most absolutely is not fine. There are numerous reasons throughout this thread as to why it is not.
Impenetrable works fine, has multiple counters, and stops me from melting people instantly through an abundance of crits.
If the effect of Impenetrable gets reduced to 5% per gear piece at yellow refine, that is fine by me; I'll just kill people twice as quickly.
The real issue remains the fact that none of the other traits are worth using in PvP.
Change the other traits to something meaningful that people will build for, and the complaints about Impenetrable will be solved while also promoting build diversity.
This will also get rid of the issue that some of the traits on PvP gear sets are laughably bad.
Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.
Building for Weapon or Spell damage instead of crit.
You can actually do both now. I'm at 220 Weapon Power and 60% crit.2 -
Strakand✭✭✭madangrypally wrote: »Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.
Yes, when it is easy to stack nearly 100% crit chance. Having an insane amount of crit in PvE is not game breaking, but having it in PvP will just greatly increase the TTK rate which is not what the game needs.
Boost other traits, but dont nerf impenetrable.
Nobody here is complaining about the Crit percentage that is achievable in the game. The concern is that the current structure of impenetrable.4 -
madangrypally✭✭✭✭Nobody here is complaining about the Crit percentage that is achievable in the game. The concern is that the current structure of impenetrable.
They go hand in hand. Impenetrable is the only defense against the insane critical percentages in the game. Nerfing Impenetrable discussions should thus include critical percentage values. To do otherwise would be misleading the discussions in favor of nerfs.
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.
Formost, both of these players touched on concerns at play:Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »madangrypally wrote: »Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.
Yes, when it is easy to stack nearly 100% crit chance. Having an insane amount of crit in PvE is not game breaking, but having it in PvP will just greatly increase the TTK rate which is not what the game needs.
Boost other traits, but dont nerf impenetrable.
Beyond that, let's go with a 60% base crit rate across the board, though some players might argue this stat to be low (ie: character has to be built for crit to be concerned with crit reduction to begin with):
Properly executed Sneak attacks auto-crit ignoring Impenetrable
Works for all classes
Crit potions add 20% (26% for Nightblades; I think 23% for Argonians and 29% for Argonian Nightblades, but someone can correct me) crit rate, and stack with all class effects.
60% + 20% = 80% ; with a potion alone characters built for crit have a minimum 10% chance to crit on Impenetrable players, unless the Impenetrable player is built with a shield.
Works for all classes
Adding class effects on top of that 10% we have:
Nightblade Shadowy Disguise adds 100% crit rate for 2.9 seconds and a single attack
Templar Biting Jabs adds 70% crit rate as an executioner attack
Dragonknight Molten Armaments provides a 30% crit rate buff for themselves and allies (though I have read complaints about it bugging out), but limited to Weapon attacks
Sorceror has 15% added crit rate on targets impacted by Dark Magic
So all classes (presuming they built for crit in the first place, and barring bugs) are able to crit on Impenetrable built players; Impenetrable just reduces the capacity to do so, which makes sense for the trait.
The largest bonuses (Nightblade and Templar) are the most limited in application; while the more versatile options (Dragonknight and Sorceror) provide the lowest buffs.
Some players may still want to be able to crit on everyone simply by building stats without managing buffs or resources, but buff and resource management is an important part of PvP.
A player with a "crit build" is only going half-way if they don't properly use their skills and potions that synergize with their build.
The largest issue with Impenetrable is that it's run on all builds, rather than just on tanks.
The fix for this is to make the other traits more viable, adding diversity to the game."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Galrukh✭✭✭I LOVE impenetrable, finally a choice I can make so crit doesnt become the auto choice it always is in every system.
If they nerf Impenetrable I seriously hope they nerf crit as well because otherwise crit becomes what everyone builds for as usual.
It is WAY too easy to get 60%+ crit rate in this game.
Now if crit was maxed out at like 30% or so I could see them removing impenetrable since a crit wouldnt be assured on the vast majority of attacks (unlike how it is now, if you dont use impenetrable), crit is too cheap in this game and luckily so is impenetrable.
Also, I think impenetrable can block auto critting attacks, I have definately used more than one critical rush that didnt crit even though it is supposed to always crit.Edited by Galrukh on August 18, 2014 9:41PM1 -
KBKB✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think it was designed to make crit next to useless in Cyrodiil, I can't recall any game that could balance PvE and PvP close to well. This is there way of doing so I guess?0 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agree with OP. Impenetrable seems far out of line in comparison to the benefits of any other armor trait.
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Raeder✭✭✭I think PvP stats are stupid. SWG solved the one hit wonder stuff by putting a 50% damage reduction if you hit another player. Problem solved, and no PvP stat.1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »Agree with OP. Impenetrable seems far out of line in comparison to the benefits of any other armor trait.
And you never stopped to consider that this might be an issue with the other traits rather than impenetrable?EU | PC | AD2 -
p_tsakirisb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since there are no defences in Cyrodiil, Impenetrable should stay as is, until they nerf the Crit stacking, and spell/armour penetration, while quadrupling the mitigation of Armour & Spell Resistance.
Anyone who stacks critical is simply crippling themselves.
Put more power and max Magicka/Stamina to raise your damage.
I have had guild mates that struggle to do damage with 80% crit+. But that was the only stat they bothered about.
Until they saw how balanced and powerful my toon is on both Stamina & Magicka setups with only 6% crit (Khajiit Templar), and since then all of them got away from the crit stacking, while performing much much better with their new balanced builds.
This game is about balance. So Learn 2 Play.0 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭"My crit stack build doesn't work that well against impen builds so please nerf impen."
No thanks.5 -
griszax✭✭✭Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.
Formost, both of these players touched on concerns at play:Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »madangrypally wrote: »Seriously a trait that totally counter all crit builds is fine in Your world ?:) Would love to hear those "counters to impenetrable " also.
Yes, when it is easy to stack nearly 100% crit chance. Having an insane amount of crit in PvE is not game breaking, but having it in PvP will just greatly increase the TTK rate which is not what the game needs.
Boost other traits, but dont nerf impenetrable.
Beyond that, let's go with a 60% base crit rate across the board, though some players might argue this stat to be low (ie: character has to be built for crit to be concerned with crit reduction to begin with):
Properly executed Sneak attacks auto-crit ignoring Impenetrable
Works for all classes
Crit potions add 20% (26% for Nightblades; I think 23% for Argonians and 29% for Argonian Nightblades, but someone can correct me) crit rate, and stack with all class effects.
60% + 20% = 80% ; with a potion alone characters built for crit have a minimum 10% chance to crit on Impenetrable players, unless the Impenetrable player is built with a shield.
Works for all classes
Adding class effects on top of that 10% we have:
Nightblade Shadowy Disguise adds 100% crit rate for 2.9 seconds and a single attack
Templar Biting Jabs adds 70% crit rate as an executioner attack
Dragonknight Molten Armaments provides a 30% crit rate buff for themselves and allies (though I have read complaints about it bugging out), but limited to Weapon attacks
Sorceror has 15% added crit rate on targets impacted by Dark Magic
So all classes (presuming they built for crit in the first place, and barring bugs) are able to crit on Impenetrable built players; Impenetrable just reduces the capacity to do so, which makes sense for the trait.
The largest bonuses (Nightblade and Templar) are the most limited in application; while the more versatile options (Dragonknight and Sorceror) provide the lowest buffs.
Some players may still want to be able to crit on everyone simply by building stats without managing buffs or resources, but buff and resource management is an important part of PvP.
A player with a "crit build" is only going half-way if they don't properly use their skills and potions that synergize with their build.
The largest issue with Impenetrable is that it's run on all builds, rather than just on tanks.
The fix for this is to make the other traits more viable, adding diversity to the game.
Yeah and look what You need to do to achieve a little crit ( 20-30 % MAX ) for a short time or just 1 skill. If You really think that a player going full crit and wasting potion each time he want to have a CHANCE to crit on players that use impenetrable is fine then I guess You are the guy using full impenetrable and being happy of killing those crit builds.
Crit build is gonna always loose to a player who use impenetrable and plays builld balanced for offensive and defensive . I would say that this is not balanced in any way. Not only that but impenetrable makes some abilities totally useless (crit surge comes to my mind from sorc).
On the other hand if they nerf impenetrable they might go from crit being useless to crit being king in pvp.
There is just no point going crit when a simple trait on gear reduces crit chance by 70% or 80 %.
If You want to prove that that impenetrable is fine then build Your character for max crit and duel some good players in full impenetrable. Let me know how it went.Sandriks EU Auriel's bow1 -
Jaxom✭✭✭✭hasselhoffman wrote: »Does anybody know if the piercing trait on weapons effectively counter impen?
Not that I'm aware of. I don't believe Precise is considered "Unresistable Crit"0 -
Anazasi✭✭✭✭✭
✭OMG....I have a crit build and I can't kill you....Nerf whatever it is that stopping me from having that I win button...... Are you serious? Seriously...3 -
griszax✭✭✭OMG....I have a crit build and I can't kill you....Nerf whatever it is that stopping me from having that I win button...... Are you serious? Seriously...
I heard reading is hard these days
I'm not using crit build for a long time but when simple trait makes whole stat totally worthless then in my book there is something wrong with the balance.
I would say that impenetrable is Your I win button for dealing with crit builds not the otherway around.
Next time try to bring something useful to the topic instead of comment like this.Sandriks EU Auriel's bow2 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The funny thing is, Even with this stat in PvP, I still crit a crap ton of people...so its not like Crit is going to waste...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos3 -
griszax✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »The funny thing is, Even with this stat in PvP, I still crit a crap ton of people...so its not like Crit is going to waste...
Lets be honest most people are clueless in pvp. This thread is about those decent pvp'ers that actually use good gear and builds.Sandriks EU Auriel's bow1 -
Krinaman✭✭✭Meh, if a character can stack everything into crit why shouldn't someone be able to stack everything into preventing crits?1
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Pixysticks✭✭✭✭✭Meh, if a character can stack everything into crit why shouldn't someone be able to stack everything into preventing crits?
If a character wants to stack crit they need-- gear, traits, mundus stones, passives, abilities, potions.
All of this is negated by any type of gear, any set, any mundus stone, with any combination of passives, using any abilities, not even using potions, JUST by having the impen trait on your gear.
So your quote is a little misleading.Alacrity
Retired 05/04/15.2 -
Draxys✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »The funny thing is, Even with this stat in PvP, I still crit a crap ton of people...so its not like Crit is going to waste...
Lets be honest most people are clueless in pvp. This thread is about those decent pvp'ers that actually use good gear and builds.
So you want them to nerf Impen so you can have an easier time against the remaining PvPers that aren't included in your "most people"?2013
rip decibel0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yeah and look what You need to do to achieve a little crit ( 20-30 % MAX ) for a short time or just 1 skill. If You really think that a player going full crit and wasting potion each time he want to have a CHANCE to crit on players that use impenetrable is fine then I guess You are the guy using full impenetrable and being happy of killing those crit builds.
...
If You want to prove that that impenetrable is fine then build Your character for max crit and duel some good players in full impenetrable. Let me know how it went.
As a crit build Nightblade, yes I actively buff my crit in order to successfully crit on Impenetrable characters in combat.
If I didn't utilize my crit buff, I wouldn't actually be a crit build.
I've also had my Alchemy at level 50 to craft all my own potions since the first few weeks of game release; because I studied the crafts during Beta and came to the conclusion that Alchemy would help me most, so it was the first one I leveled.
People whine about Impenetrable because all builds use it but no one is willing to counter it.
The other traits need to be buffed to make them appealing and viable in PvP.
Impenetrable is fine; the other traits are the issue."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
1
