Bat Swarm should disable other attacks while active.

wsvdyk · August 2014

Bat swarm is maybe realy strong I do agree with that. But hit me with fire and I'm nearly dead. I know there are some enchantments that will fix that.

Less health regen. If that should be nerfed why would the negative effects about a vamp not be less or non.

I think if ZOS removes bat swarm allot of people don't want to be a vamp because the 1 best thing about a vamp is being removed.

I'm a nightblade and use vamp for 2 reasons bat swarm (lvl 5) for a health boost when I'm low health. And I want to be a vamp to sneak faster (lvl 9)

I became a vamp 14-08 and I'm now lvl 2 with it it takes allot of time for most of us to be using those good attacks.

I only see posts of nerf bat swarm, nerf bat swarm and more people cring because someone is using bat swarm. 8 haven't see any posts of the negative affects. I don't know the perfect numbers but. 40% less health regen this can be nerfed abit when you get allot of xp with vamp. 50% more damage while hit be fire.

Because there are 2 types play o t her than a humanoid. I show the strenght and weakness of them.

Werewolf Strengths

Stamina based attacks
Fights well in groups thanks to passive effects and perks
Has devastating potential for melee damage
Large bonuses to all combat related stats
Strong crowd control potential

Vampire Strengths

Magicka based attacks
Can utilize abilities to compliment stealth during combat
Delivers more potency during night
Can still use Ultimate slot
Can still wear weapons/armor

Werewolf Weaknesses

Weakness to Poison
Must eat to remain transformed
Has devastating potential for melee damage
Prime target of Fighters Guild members
Vampire Weaknesses

Weak to Fire (More frequently used than poison)
Weak to abilities that deal extra damage to undead
All negative elements are in effect all the time as there’s no transformation
Requires regular enemy encounters to remain at full strength
Prime target of Fighters Guild members

coryevans_3b14_ESO · August 2014

Makkir wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

Interesting to note that most of the "opposition" has no argument, they just assume you don't know how to dodge AoE. Then they use this to make an Ad Hominem attack.

Why do some abilities have an AoE cap right now while others like Bat Swarm do not? Curious, if we go with your option #2 what about other ultimates with a "summoned" effect (Like storm Atronach)? Would you want that cancelled as well?

I have not had any serious encounters with bat swarmers. Most of the time I just roll out of the way...
If you play or have played WoW then I am sure you are familiar with the Tunnel Vision Pugs you get in Random Battleground games (Basically they run to middle of map and start slashing at each other). I noticed same thing over in this game as well. Most unorganized Pug raids lacking voice comm and structure tend to just run around in a zerg without any kind of strategy. I think that's the group that's more likely to "stand in fire."

This ^^

If you stand in it, you're bad. Period.

ThisOnePosts · August 2014

This is a terrible idea. For that matter, all powerful Ultimates should grey out abilities. Did you eat some moldy cheese that Uncle Sheo told you not to?!!

Terrible idea. My DK isn't even a vamp so that combo wouldn't even be something I do, however that is still the worst idea I've read on these forums since the nerf wars between classes.

Oh you don't know how to move out of the way of talons and bat swarm? Well then you don't belong in PVP! It's not "Hey make this game so easy that I never have to worry" what it should be is: "Well, there must be ways to deal with it, let me work at it". I know EXACTLY how to deal in those situations.

Spoiler for you:

L 2 P

ADDITIONALLY: Bat Swarm is an AOE. It's not a single target beam that must be focused on one enemy, so it makes sense about Soul Assault being that way but they should NOT be compared. Compare this with other AOE ultimates and then you will see, they either all need to grey out abilities, or none. You can't single out one that works perfectly fine just because you can't roll out of Talons fast enough to move out of the Bat Swarm. Veil of Blades, Storm Atronach, Negate, Nova, Banner, and etc.. would have to be given the same treatment since they are all AOE and you know.. you could potentially get caught in Talons (and forget to dodge roll) by an enemy DK since Cyrodiil is full of more than just 1 enemy. And yeah, that would be a horrible thing to do to the game. If this game is too tough for you, there are other MMOs out there which require less thought in battle.

Bad idea is bad. Lock this thread and start handing out infractions moderators!!! LOLLL

ravenhartb14_ESO · August 2014

I personally am tired of semi trucks travelling on U.S. interstates. Every time I walk in the middle of freeway lanes I keep getting hit.

coryevans_3b14_ESO · August 2014

ravenhartb14_ESO wrote: »

I personally am tired of semi trucks travelling on U.S. interstates. Every time I walk in the middle of freeway lanes I keep getting hit.

LOL..sums it up perfectly.

Soloeus · August 2014

I can no longer respond to this thread because people are allowed to tell me to "change my tactics" but I am not allowed to say the same. I am allowed to be personally attacked and portrayed as a bad player who just stands in AoE's but I am not allowed to tell players to stop making fallacious arguments.

Oh and Pro Tip:

You cannot use Silver Shards or Silver Bolts on DK Vamps because they just use Reflective Scales - Dark Talons - Reflective Scales - Dark Talons. Scales reflects back the Silver Bolts.

Also, your actual chance of hitting the 2-3 vamps in a group of 12+ people isn't very high. And the Zergballs I have been in (and against) always have 1-2 people with Combat Prayer which also keeps the vamp healed and thus the ball rolling.

ravenhartb14_ESO · August 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

I can no longer respond to this thread because people are allowed to tell me to "change my tactics" but I am not allowed to say the same.

1) If your tactics aren't working, you need to change your tactics if you even have the slightest hopes for success.

2) You can absolutely say the same. The reality is; other people have run into this issue, changed their tactics and are now successful. The only thing holding you back from being successful as well is the fact that you've pigeonholed yourself into only using 1 tactic and are getting angry when it doesn't work.

The fact that you refuse to adapt and overcome ultimately means your frustration level will increase. It's up to you to change it.

SienneYviete · August 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

I can no longer respond to this thread because people are allowed to tell me to "change my tactics" but I am not allowed to say the same. I am allowed to be personally attacked and portrayed as a bad player who just stands in AoE's but I am not allowed to tell players to stop making fallacious arguments.

Oh and Pro Tip:

You cannot use Silver Shards or Silver Bolts on DK Vamps because they just use Reflective Scales - Dark Talons - Reflective Scales - Dark Talons. Scales reflects back the Silver Bolts.

Also, your actual chance of hitting the 2-3 vamps in a group of 12+ people isn't very high. And the Zergballs I have been in (and against) always have 1-2 people with Combat Prayer which also keeps the vamp healed and thus the ball rolling.

Pro Tip: Use lots of fire

demonlkojipub19_ESO · August 2014

Then so should every other ultimate.

Or, get over it.

Maulkin · August 2014

The only issue I see is the very low cost for what it offers.

I've a v12 Sorc that's a Vamp and a v12 DK that isn't. None of them suffers that much from vamps. Just sayin'

shadowz081 · August 2014

Still haven't answered the question of why you can't move out of it? Besides devouring swarm only makes vamp invincible for 5-6sec and the attack is pretty weak, after that you can kill them fairly easily unless they are jamming down block, which all players with half a brain do when they are being attacked.

Also you only have 2 channeling ult in this game, which you have named, one does 3.3k damage to a player in 3 sec, the other is purely a support ult, which are completely different things to devouring swarm and should not be compared.

So how about AoE ults? Veils of blades from NB, you drop it you get 60% damage mit and half that to allies in it, and if you hold block, even the strongest attacks only scratches you while dealing damage to any enemies in it and it last 17sec, Standard from DK, people on the forums discussed it more than enough that most people who have never played a DK knows what it generally does, so how about that? Negate magic, do you think it is 'fair' that the moment a sorc drops it everyone inside can't cast spell, while the sorc and it is allies CC you like no tomorrow? Sure they may have AoE caps, but the effects of these ults can be potentially more devastating and tide turning if used in the correct situation in contrast to batswarm and the chance of killing the caster before the duration of the ult ending is miniscule at best.

And lets talk about invincibility for a moment here, while it is true that batswarm can potentially make you a god for a short time, templars specced in healing can pretty much do the same thing for another player, or at least come close, for I have seen enemy players simply getting healed faster than they are getting dps, from soul assault, light attacks and other random skills. Why not nerf templar healing as well while your at it(Because you 'fix' IS a nerf for batswarm, a very big one despite what you may claim) because people simply won't die when a temp is around. What about green dragon blood for DK should we put an ability where the DK cant block for 'x' amount of second when they use that?

And devouring swarm has already been nerfed, have you been in pvp since the game began? DKs could freaking solo groups of 20 player sieging a keep or outpost, and actually kill 3/4 of the group, and anyone denying it is outright lying. Is batswarm currently powerful, yes it is. Is it over powered to the point where you need to 'fix' it? No it is not.

Because for devouring swarm to be effective, you have to be in the middle of a group of enemy because of it is limited radius, and once it ends the vampire have two options, stay and die, stay hold block and hope reinforcement can get to you before they die or get the hell out of dodge as fast as you can with a swarm of pissed off players on your tail, most likely killing said vamp in the process.

And if the vampire is not in the middle of an enemy group when DS is active? Not very effective now is it? DS strength scales with the number of enemies in it, but it is weakness is having little to nothing to damage, and there are a lot of abilities that out ranges DS, crystal shards, strife, cripple, poison arrow, crushing shock, etc. So next time, instead of standing in it, back off and wait for it to end before attacking, or backing off and attacking with something that has superior range to the ult.

ravenhartb14_ESO · August 2014

Clearly; the OP hasn't put much effort into alternate tactics.

Newton said, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". If you can't react to an action, that's your problem; because the rest of us can and do.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

GaldorP · August 2014

Bat Swarm is currently too strong and needs a nerf.

An AoE damage ultimate that moves with the user, has almost twice the dps of Standard of Might, costs less ultimate, has a higher range than the standard or Impulse and has unbelievably strong morph effects is simply too strong compared to other ultimates.

Just imagine, if the Dragonknight Standard had the same morph effects: 100% of the damage done gained as Health, or the Dragonknight would turn invisible for the duration of the standard. Nobody in their right mind would consider that well-balanced.

Sure, bat swarm has a shorter duration. But that doesn't mean much if vampires with a high PvP rank can chain-cast it as long as there's a few people around who don't react fast enough (btw, if a Vampire is right next to you and following you, there is NO WAY you can escape from a bat swarm unless you're a Sorcerer using Bolt Escape, so you get the full 2k damage + whatever damage the vampire is doing on top of that with skills and weapon attacks). Also, the fact that the swarm's dps is so much higher than that of the standard is already a huge plus, since burst damage is all that matters in PvP.

And yes, organized groups of experienced PvP players have no problem dealing with enemy vampires but that doesn't change the fact that the ultimate is just incredibly strong in comparison to other ultimates (at least the invisibility morph effect is simply too good in PvP).

Bat Swarm definitely needs a nerf and I think taking away the ability to use any other skills while it's in use is one viable way to do it. Another would be to make Bat Swarm static and give it the same morphs the Dragonknight Standard has (can be replaced once or 20% more damage done and 20% less damage taken for the vampire while standing in the swarm). Again, this makes you realize just how overpowered the current morph effects of Bat Swarm are

As for the pros and cons of werewolves and vampires, I see it more like this, from a practical perspective:

WEREWOLVES

Positives:

- You gain access to an ultimate that grants you a low amount of extra ultimate (5 every 3 seconds when you take damage) while slotted.

Negatives:

- You take more poison damage (not sure if this actually affects the human form; my Werewolf character is a wood elf so I never noticed any difference)

Irrelevants:

- You have access to an incredibly expensive ultimate skill that temporarily makes you a lot weaker in both offense and defense (you lose your weapon trait, your weapon enchantment, your weapon passives, access to all your regular skills and instead gain access to 2 new bad skills; Fighter Guild skills work on you now; you cannot use siege weapons anymore, etc.)

VAMPIRES

Positives:

- Faster sneaking speed
- Access to two useful active skills and an ultimate that has unbelievably good morph effects
- Reduced cost for vampire skills (including the ultimate)
- Increased Magicka and Stamina Recovery
- Faster hiding at night (not sure if that works)

Negatives:

- You take more fire damage
- You're vulnerable to Fighter Guild abilities
- Reduced Health Recovery

Irrelevants:

- Undeath is currently not working according to what most people say

ravenhartb14_ESO · August 2014

m.stollb16_ESO wrote: »

VAMPIRES

Summary: You do more damage, you take more damage.

I'm being ganked by a vampy; what should I do?
1) Vampires do AOE damage that can be seen for miles. Avoid Bat Swarms
2) Vampire Bat Swarms are not indefinite; maybe I should stop facerolling with the rest of my zerg ball; hang back a bit, wait for the Bat Swarm to expire and gank the vampy in turn.
3) Vampires have weaknesses. I'm disgruntled by how vampires also have strengths. I don't want to succeed against a foe, so instead I'll die and rage on the forums instead of attacking them with fire attacks that are available to every single player in the game.

It's no matter that there are more fire based attacks that can kill vampires than there are vampire skills that can kill anyone else. The vampire skill line should be all negatives that offer no benefits. Hell, I'm too lazy to use fire.

Ghenra · August 2014

BAT SWARM SHOULD BE ERASED FROM GAME.

ravenhartb14_ESO · August 2014

Ghenra wrote: »

BAT SWARM SHOULD BE ERASED FROM GAME.

There we go. Irrefutable proof. Who can argue with that impressive display of logic? Instead, lets give them "Bunny Smash: Do additional damage to critters for 8 seconds".

shadowz081 · August 2014

m.stollb16_ESO wrote: »

Bat Swarm is currently too strong and needs a nerf.

An AoE damage ultimate that moves with the user, has almost twice the dps of Standard of Might, costs less ultimate, has a higher range than the standard or Impulse and has unbelievably strong morph effects is simply too strong compared to other ultimates.

Just imagine, if the Dragonknight Standard had the same morph effects: 100% of the damage done gained as Health, or the Dragonknight would turn invisible for the duration of the standard. Nobody in their right mind would consider that well-balanced.

Yes the caster can chase after people...and? Caster can only chase after one person, the moment you see devouring swarm activate, scatter in different directions, and the vamp will be forced to choose only one person to chase while the other dps at range. Unlike a standard, where you can drop and run if things gets too hot, and it could still be somewhat useful, devouring swarms needs you to be right in the middle of a hoard of enemies, which can outmaneuver and surround you as they wait for the ult to end before simply barraging you with a torrent of spells and abilities.

And having devouring swarm on doesn't make vamp immune to CC either, so if you are the guy being chased, what is stopping you from talon and running? Shard and running? Agony/cripple and running, silver bolt and running? Yes, those that slotted immovable are immune to CC, but they do that, they lose out on a damage or sustain skill. Also standard is not that op, it is only op if you stand in it, just like veils of blades, impulse, and AoE in general.

Sure, bat swarm has a shorter duration. But that doesn't mean much if vampires with a high PvP rank can chain-cast it as long as there's a few people around who don't react fast enough (btw, if a Vampire is right next to you and following you, there is NO WAY you can escape from a bat swarm unless you're a Sorcerer using Bolt Escape, so you get the full 2k damage + whatever damage the vampire is doing on top of that with skills and weapon attacks). Also, the fact that the swarm's dps is so much higher than that of the standard is already a huge plus, since burst damage is all that matters in PvP.

And about not reacting fast enough, everyone should be punished for making a mistake. You don't react fast enough? You die and the rest of your team gets punished for it. This is the same in PvE, you stand in red circles you die, you don't block when you are suppose to you die, etc.

And if the vampire got up right next to you and you cant get away, than he probably deserves the kill, and in sieges, there will usually be a healer healing you through the ult unless you run with zergs and even than there are usually a couple of healers/off healers around.

Even if there isn't any healers around, you should be mostly fine, DK can just counter by dropping a standard to mitigate damage or pop dragon blood to heal, sorc, as you say bolt escapes, templars...They can heal through a soul assault and two other guys attacking, a puny vampire ultimate should be easy to survive and NB, drop a Veils of blade and you get 60% damage mit right there. Oh and don't forget to hold block, blocking increases survivability.

And yes, organized groups of experienced PvP players have no problem dealing with enemy vampires but that doesn't change the fact that the ultimate is just incredibly strong in comparison to other ultimates (at least the invisibility morph effect is simply too good in PvP).

Bat Swarm definitely needs a nerf and I think taking away the ability to use any other skills while it's in use is one viable way to do it. Another would be to make Bat Swarm static and give it the same morphs the Dragonknight Standard has (can be replaced once or 20% more damage done and 20% less damage taken for the vampire while standing in the swarm). Again, this makes you realize just how overpowered the current morph effects of Bat Swarm are

To counter invisibility get a detection potion and your set. And you don't need to be an experienced pvp player to counter bat swarm, any player who has played the game for 2-3 weeks should be able to handle it.

And bat swarm has already been nerfed, remember when DK were able to solo twenty players with it and kill 3/4 of said group of 20 players? Well they are not doing that now are they? If not than the ult is fine as it is.

Soloeus · August 2014

m.stollb16_ESO wrote: »

Bat Swarm is currently too strong and needs a nerf.

An AoE damage ultimate that moves with the user, has almost twice the dps of Standard of Might, costs less ultimate, has a higher range than the standard or Impulse and has unbelievably strong morph effects is simply too strong compared to other ultimates.

Just imagine, if the Dragonknight Standard had the same morph effects: 100% of the damage done gained as Health, or the Dragonknight would turn invisible for the duration of the standard. Nobody in their right mind would consider that well-balanced.

Sure, bat swarm has a shorter duration. But that doesn't mean much if vampires with a high PvP rank can chain-cast it as long as there's a few people around who don't react fast enough (btw, if a Vampire is right next to you and following you, there is NO WAY you can escape from a bat swarm unless you're a Sorcerer using Bolt Escape, so you get the full 2k damage + whatever damage the vampire is doing on top of that with skills and weapon attacks). Also, the fact that the swarm's dps is so much higher than that of the standard is already a huge plus, since burst damage is all that matters in PvP.

And yes, organized groups of experienced PvP players have no problem dealing with enemy vampires but that doesn't change the fact that the ultimate is just incredibly strong in comparison to other ultimates (at least the invisibility morph effect is simply too good in PvP).

Bat Swarm definitely needs a nerf and I think taking away the ability to use any other skills while it's in use is one viable way to do it. Another would be to make Bat Swarm static and give it the same morphs the Dragonknight Standard has (can be replaced once or 20% more damage done and 20% less damage taken for the vampire while standing in the swarm). Again, this makes you realize just how overpowered the current morph effects of Bat Swarm are

As for the pros and cons of werewolves and vampires, I see it more like this, from a practical perspective:

WEREWOLVES

Positives:

- You gain access to an ultimate that grants you a low amount of extra ultimate (5 every 3 seconds when you take damage) while slotted.

Negatives:

- You take more poison damage (not sure if this actually affects the human form; my Werewolf character is a wood elf so I never noticed any difference)

Irrelevants:

- You have access to an incredibly expensive ultimate skill that temporarily makes you a lot weaker in both offense and defense (you lose your weapon trait, your weapon enchantment, your weapon passives, access to all your regular skills and instead gain access to 2 new bad skills; Fighter Guild skills work on you now; you cannot use siege weapons anymore, etc.)

VAMPIRES

Positives:

- Faster sneaking speed
- Access to two useful active skills and an ultimate that has unbelievably good morph effects
- Reduced cost for vampire skills (including the ultimate)
- Increased Magicka and Stamina Recovery
- Faster hiding at night (not sure if that works)

Negatives:

- You take more fire damage
- You're vulnerable to Fighter Guild abilities
- Reduced Health Recovery

Irrelevants:

- Undeath is currently not working according to what most people say

This guy gets it.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

nobody cares that you won't be able to cheese out mobs in pve, pvp needs the balance.

I don't agree with this idea, unless batswarm does more damage, but it does need a nerf imo.

heyguyslol · August 2014

Bats has already been nerfed there is no need to nerf it again. Leave the ultimate alone.

kitsinni · August 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

Or better yet make it so that it doesn't hurt stationary targets at all. That way players that don't know to gtfo of AOE's will stop complaining,

How exactly do you gtfo of AOE's when it goes knockdown/stun > talons > talons > talons > talons > talons? Why even waste the stamina trying to get out when you have another one spammed before you can roll?

AlienSlof · August 2014

The PvP'ers QQ'ing again. Leave vampires alone. No more nerfs, please.

Get your Fighters Guild skills readied and learn to use strategy against them instead of just crying for more nerfs.

Braddass · August 2014

The best way to balance Vampires is to make them die in the sunlight, and be attacked on sight by all city guards.

Maybe then, all the top PvP builds would not all be Vamps (and all the kids used to using hacks to get godmode would find something else to play).

Mephos · August 2014

I don´t understand if there are vampire, why are there no vampire hunter?
just use silver bolt and your problems are solved.

by the way, if you give me a skill line where I can knock down every DK in the game then you can give them OP standard of might as you want. who the *** cares if they lay on their back while OP standard is up?

Animus0724 · August 2014

How about no, try using the skill yourself before you call it OP. The damage is mediocre at best and is easily avoidable if you just walk the other way. Wanna know what is more OP than bat swarm? Veil of blades, but no one *** about that now do they...

Vamp are already squishy as is, thats the whole point of being a vamp, you sacrifice survivability for power, vamps are balanced as is, nerfing one of their most useful skills will tip that balance, making vamps more unplayable.

And if I'm not mistaken, bat swarm has already been nerfed in both duration, size of AoE, and max amount of enemies affected. Please stop calling for nerfs and just work on your gameplay.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2014

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

Bat Swarm + Impulse/Talons

One of the biggest improvement that can be made to Vampires is to stop the Bat Swarm + Dark Talons, Bat Swarm + Impulse, Bat Swarm + Streak, Streak, Streak...

To Fix: There are 2 easy fixes that don't "nerf" Bat Swarm.

1. When Bat Swarm is active, your other abilities grey out until Bat Swarm ends. This is easy but removes the choice, which brings me to 2.

2. When activated, Bat Swarm should have the same effect as Soul Assault. If you activate an ability while Bat Swarm is active, the Bat Swarm ends. This means a player mid Bat Swarm has a choice to finish it, or start spamming Dark Talons and Impulse.

This will keep Bat Swarm powerful but deny stacking it with other abilities which is one of the biggest reasons the Zergball technique works so well.

It's real strong, but so is Negate Magic.

QFT. Let's disable casting while an atronarch, banner, veil of blades, or nova is active too while we're at it!

kitsinni · August 2014

Fighters guild is pretty much the biggest joke in the world. Don't get me wrong there are some nice PvE skills in that line.

.. just "silver bolts and problem solved" translates to "I don't PvP".

Attorneyatlawl · August 2014

timidobserver wrote: »

I've had a lot of luck killing vamp clouding swarm bombers with blazing spear. I basically just spam it on their general location when they are swarming over a large group and my scrolling combat text confirms for me that they get stunned. Shortly after that they usually die.

I let them hop into the group then spam frag shield a few times, they usually kill themselves and if not I throw out a fiery pulsar.

Obus · August 2014

There is a thing called roll dodge. If you spend your stamina on other things, is your problem.

technohic · August 2014

I'm using vamp myself right now and I get a kick out of the "Get out of the way" argument. I just know that if I want you dead, Im going to charge at you to stay on top of you, and its going to stun you. You're not getting away.

Now; there are more effective ways to get a single target like that and bat swarm is wasted on a single target, but a lot of times the crowd has no idea whats going on behind them and other bads. Or the one guy trying to get away is moving in the same direction as everyone else providing a target to charge right at the lot of them.