A Solution For Tanks

Chubbaz · August 2014

If you've ever tanked end-game content in games like WoW for example you would know that bosses could do devastating damage unless you reached a certain Defense cap with Heavy Armor. How is this relevant? Well, I think Zenimax should add Defense Rating to Heavy Armor to reduce the likelihood of Critical Hits and to add a certain meta that makes them valuable and needed in PvE. Or maybe increase Boss damage on Cloth users?

This way, Tanks will have to be present to hold the bosses damage as doing so in a skirt would be suicide.

Heavy Armor is clearly aimed towards the defensive protection role and should excel above all other armor types at doing this, it makes absolutely no sense for a mage to tank a boss.

TL:DR Make bosses crit more on those not using Heavy Armor/Add a system for tanks to stack Crit resist.

Iam_Epiphany · August 2014

I think you're being too close minded, using magic for mitigation instead of armour has always been a part of TES. Having a tank is important, forcing all tanks to play the way you want them to is not...

Heavy armour does need another buff to be considered a valid alternative to light/medium but it shouldnt be the only way to go. ,

Ser Lobo · August 2014

At this stage, I would love to see a passive in the heavy armor line that provides outright damage resistance per piece. That would go a long way to making heavy armor more viable, as the actual armor rating can only go so far in a game where armor rating plays such an insignificant role.

And making armor skills requiring five pieces of that armor before being used.

But we are more likely going to see a nerf in the passives for restoration staff (lowering damage output, especially on light and heavy attacks) and light armor (lowering magicka generation) to bring light down a notch. I think these will address damage output, but not necessarily tanking.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Chubbaz wrote: »

If you've ever tanked end-game content in games like WoW for example you would know that bosses could do devastating damage unless you reached a certain Defense cap with Heavy Armor. How is this relevant? Well, I think Zenimax should add Defense Rating to Heavy Armor to reduce the likelihood of Critical Hits and to add a certain meta that makes them valuable and needed in PvE. Or maybe increase Boss damage on Cloth users?

This way, Tanks will have to be present to hold the bosses damage as doing so in a skirt would be suicide.

Heavy Armor is clearly aimed towards the defensive protection role and should excel above all other armor types at doing this, it makes absolutely no sense for a mage to tank a boss.

TL:DR Make bosses crit more on those not using Heavy Armor/Add a system for tanks to stack Crit resist.

I agree, but it goes far beyond this issue unfortunately . there are several things wrong with the tanking role. no true agro management, No LOS, techniques mobs hit through walls pillars and enviroment. No pulling or social agro pulling techniques. you pull one you pull a whole room. No true damage mitigation is half the problem. At the end a tank in ESO is simply a DPS with a taunt. the alck of real Utility, CC or any Dynamic other then DPS and heals to accomdate 4 man groups and 12 man trials is not going to change.

ZOS is goin to stick to their vision no matter how poor it translates into certain aspects of the game , and no matter how much the Player population see's it as rudimentary mechanics.

PBpsy · August 2014

I stopped reading at WOW.

Cogo · August 2014

First. This is not WoW. Forget everything from there. It doesn't apply in ESO.

Second, Heavy armor is for protection against normal attacks and HP + a mix of weapons passives.

Heavy armor is not just for tanks.

And tanking in heavy in vet dungeons is very much possible.

Its not really heavy armor that's the problem (they got a few buffs).
Its how damage is done vs AC and AC on light armor.

Zeni are balancing it out.

Audigy · August 2014

WOW stopped with def stats a few years ago.

Last time that I used resistance gear was with WOTLK at ICC and defense rating was removed around that time as well.

Btw. if you knew how to play then tanking at WOW was possible as Mage, Warlock and Rogue as well. Illidian, Council are two example from BT.

Personally I would like to see the tanking role more viable at ESO, I often feel a bit useless with my shield and sword. I wont be able to dodge forever and this is what should make a tank a tank. Being able to dodge everything as a good player, something a DPS or Healer wont be able to due their lack of Stamina.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Cogo wrote: »

First. This is not WoW. Forget everything from there. It doesn't apply in ESO.

Second, Heavy armor is for protection against normal attacks and HP + a mix of weapons passives.

Heavy armor is not just for tanks.

And tanking in heavy in vet dungeons is very much possible.

Its not really heavy armor that's the problem (they got a few buffs).
Its how damage is done vs AC and AC on light armor.

Zeni are balancing it out.

o ya sure i dont think anyone said it was not possible. i have a DK tank V12 in full yokeda , unassailable jewelry, yokeda mace and shield, and the rest is hist bark. It's completely Doable he just stands there and soaks damage as he has no magica to really do DPs and no crit .

then i have my sorc. 5 piece Martial knowledge and 5 piece Warlock.
Running ageis and storm armor i have the same Armor as my dk , actually 100 more and 1200 more spell resistance. I pumpout 600 to 700 ST DPS while tanking and 2k AOE. there is no difference in mitigation and Did COH with that set up and did it in a faster time then my DK. the healers never noticed i was not wearing heavy armor lol. for tanking in 95% of the situation LA >Heavy

Cyberdown · August 2014

FFS why do people continually try to standardize this game with all the rest.

Being able to tank in any gear you want is a positive not a negative with this game. Yeah you might have a more difficult time with some set ups vs others...

does it really upset you so much that some are breaking the rules of tanking or something?

Ser Lobo · August 2014

Cyberdown wrote: »

FFS why do people continually try to standardize this game with all the rest.

Being able to tank in any gear you want is a positive not a negative with this game. Yeah you might have a more difficult time with some set ups vs others...

does it really upset you so much that some are breaking the rules of tanking or something?

As long as one set of armor has to work just as hard as another to tank, I'm fine. If that light-armor tank has to spend a lot of magicka to keep up those wonderous magical shields that stop all damage, that's cool. If my medium-armor tank has to be more active in avoiding large hits, dodging, and evading? Also cool.

It seems obvious that the tanking in the different gear should WORK different, mechanically. But tanking shouldn't be about doing damage, it should be about controlling the mobs and absorbing damage.

Right now, tanking is a fair afterthought to even support and especially dps. The mechanic is generally the same, and can be achieved just as easily in each type of armor. It's very simple and doesn't feel different, no matter what gear you are wearing.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Cyberdown wrote: »

FFS why do people continually try to standardize this game with all the rest.

Being able to tank in any gear you want is a positive not a negative with this game. Yeah you might have a more difficult time with some set ups vs others...

does it really upset you so much that some are breaking the rules of tanking or something?

Because its not actually tanking. its DPs with a taunt. Many people who enjoy the role find this pretty lame and un fun. Personally I have DPs specs on both my V12 chr's and they tank far better then my heavy armor survivablility spec.

Natjur · August 2014

Just trying to work out one thing.
Why do most tanks want to force all players in the 'tank' role (keeping the main boss busy, blocking and controlling the pull) to be wearing heavy armor?

I like playing a templar who wears 7 light armor and use the same armor for healing or tanking. In fact, I just have one bar for healing and one for sword/board tanking.
I am at the armor soft cap, so why force me to wear heavy armor by changing things?

It means I can fulfill either role with just a switch of the action bar. Its also the same action bar for PVP by just replace the taunt (Inner Beast) with a PVP skill.

I like the way it currently works.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO · August 2014

Natjur wrote: »

Just trying to work out one thing.
Why do most tanks want to force all players in the 'tank' role (keeping the main boss busy, blocking and controlling the pull) to be wearing heavy armor?

I like playing a templar who wears 7 light armor and use the same armor for healing or tanking. In fact, I just have one bar for healing and one for sword/board tanking.
I am at the armor soft cap, so why force me to wear heavy armor by changing things?

It means I can fulfill either role with just a switch of the action bar. Its also the same action bar for PVP by just replace the taunt (Inner Beast) with a PVP skill.

I like the way it currently works.

I think the biggest problem is that you can do this while outputting crazy dps.

I don't get why they don't make armor boosting abilities temporarily cripple damage. Similarly heavy armor could have a passive that reduces its protection bonuses for some extra damage.

I sounds so easy to allow different play styles and armor combos. Hopefully the reality isn't as complex as I suspect it is.

Chubbaz · August 2014

Alright so there's quite a bit of feedback to work with so I'll try and explain a few things.

@Cyberdown - I don't see why you're getting so upset. I'm glad you enjoy tanking in a skirt but from a guys point of view who has played a tank in many MMO's I'm sure you can see why I feel it's absurd. Sorceror's SHOULD NOT be able to fill all 3 roles this damn well. It's game breaking and of course I expect you to be biased as it's your main.

@Natjur - Because if you look at the Heavy Armor passives it is clearly tailored towards those who want the defensive option in Dungeons yet they are penalized for taking that option which is not fair at all. Why give someone the tools to do a job when they're so ineffective compared to other builds.

@wifeaggro13 - This is what I was trying to get across albeit badly worded.

@PBpsy - Thank you for showing me you are ignorant, I wasn't using WoW as the only example, I used it instead of listing every MMO to date by saying SUCH AS.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Cyberdown wrote: »

FFS why do people continually try to standardize this game with all the rest.

Being able to tank in any gear you want is a positive not a negative with this game. Yeah you might have a more difficult time with some set ups vs others...

does it really upset you so much that some are breaking the rules of tanking or something?

No whats up setting is there is no negative to it. Whats upsetting is it does the job far better than heavy. I have heavy armor set ups with unassailable jewelry on both my sorc and dk V12 and i've tanked everything in game VR aside from a boss in AA and 4 in hel ra. And i have light dps armor set ups with warlock. Both my chr's tank better in my light dps set ups then my heavy. My sorc actualy has more armor in light with 2 buffs then my dk in full yokeda lol and better spell resistance by a large portion. While. Retaining all the crit and magica bonus. The only thing heavy offers is block reduction which is easily overcome in light with Sns slotted defensive ability.

What people are pissed about is the imbalance. YOU CANT DPS IN HEAVY ARMOR AT ALL!! . That is what people are upset about is that the game has a completely broken end game dynamic. Heavy armor is good for a couple bosses in trials. That's what the issue is. Since your fine with light armor , i am betting you would be screaming obscenities at the dev's if you logged in next week and heavy armor was doing 1.4 k DPS. And light set up was pulling 450 with an adjusted armor cap making tanking completely impossible. Because that is the situation with heavy armor currently. DPS is impossible in heavy , and tanking in heavy is far under the benefits of light for 95% percent of VR content

Natjur · August 2014

I think three small changes can balance most of the armors and make each a valid option for tanking or dps

(1) Chance the armor 'active' skills to be only allowed to use if you have 5 slots of that type, so you will not see 5 light using Immoveable, but they can still tank in light if at the armor soft cap and using other skills to help

(2) Change the mitigation caps based on armor. Light cap at 40%, Medium 50% and Heavy 60%, its only a small difference so not to break anything now.

(3) Change the heavy armor passives to give even more stamina back.