Bolt Escape still too cheap?

Luvsfuzzybunnies · August 2014

MorHawk wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Honestly, you people are like the people that sue mcdonalds because they burned themselves on the coffee just because they're too stupid to know that freshly brewed coffee is hot.

http://www.upworthy.com/ever-hear-about-the-lady-that-spilled-coffee-on-herself-at-mcdonalds-then-sued-for-millions
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

Might want to read up on what actually happened there. The woman had to have medical treatment for two years afterwards, including numerous skin grafts. Also, the amount of "Seriously Dude" lines on this thread are getting downright farcical.

So you're saying that when you get a cup of coffee from Mcdonald you expect it to be lukewarm or cold. Gtfo I don't care how much surgery you caused yourself to have coffee is gonna be hot. Don't put it on your dashboard then floor it out of the McDonald's drive thru.

Luvsfuzzybunnies · August 2014

Only to catch him.hit him once and have the sorc bolt again

NorthernFury wrote: »

Sheaden wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Actually, the fact that he was able to evade troll 6 or 7 of you for 15 mins makes him a good player. You guys being unable to figure out a way to catch him doesn't make BE a broken mechanic.

The only way I see that group taking him down is with a sorc, which they didn't have. So that's balanced to you then? The fact that you MUST have a sorc to catch/defeat another sorc? LOL

The point is .... ANY SORC can kite a group that size that doesn't have a sorc with them for 15 minutes if they build for it properly. That's part of the reason they changed the ability last time. It doesn't take much if any skill to kite like this the way the ability currently works.

Did you not read my post above about NB's in stealth being able to match horse speed?

You don't need a sorc to catch a sorc, that's your own hyperbole. All classes have damage and crowd control spells. the fact that you guys either didn't use them, or couldn't figure out how to coordinate for 15 mins says more about your own skill than it does the BE mechanic. Gee, I dunno, maybe 1 of the guys chasing him stops chasing him long enough to exit combat and mount up?

cmon, man. just because you chose to beat your head against a wall for 15 minutes does not mean BE is broken.

Bravo your assessment of the situation leads to one guy catching up on a horse to use 1 ability or auto attack once and have the sorc bolt again yay win!

Luvsfuzzybunnies · August 2014

MADshadowman wrote: »

@Sheaden‌ don't you get it? it's not his fault that everyone laughs at you now. it's your fault because you chose to run after ONE guy for 15 minutes! Just let him escape if you can't get him after 20 seconds and look for some other people. You're just stubborn and now you're frustrated because you couldn't let go.

7 or 8 people and no one can manage to pop rapid maneuver, mount a horse or just turn around and get back to real business.

stop right here pal, before it gets even more ridiculous.

Lol cause that sorc would never turn around and harass you some more. And mounting to catch them and hit them once before they bolt spam infinitely again will totally kill them.

MADshadowman · August 2014

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

@Sheaden‌ don't you get it? it's not his fault that everyone laughs at you now. it's your fault because you chose to run after ONE guy for 15 minutes! Just let him escape if you can't get him after 20 seconds and look for some other people. You're just stubborn and now you're frustrated because you couldn't let go.

7 or 8 people and no one can manage to pop rapid maneuver, mount a horse or just turn around and get back to real business.

stop right here pal, before it gets even more ridiculous.

Lol cause that sorc would never turn around and harass you some more. And mounting to catch them and hit them once before they bolt spam infinitely again will totally kill them.

If you do it right, then yes. OOOOOORRR you could just run after him for another 15 minutes. some might think this is the better idea.

Sheaden · August 2014

MADshadowman wrote: »

Wow @Sheaden you just keep on harping on this one string, don't you?

you lost this argument right at the beginning.

“Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.” - The Dude

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

Sheaden wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Another sorc could easily follow him with their own BE. Its like people say, each build has their own thing, be it either block, invisibility or blink etc. I see nightblades dodge and invis all the time to get away from a larger group and succeeding with it, I wont cry for a nerf. Get over it and maybe next time you might catch him. Stop the whining.

Since when is block exclusive to ONE class? Invisibility is still broken from any Nightblade I've talked to and I don't think you want to open THAT can of worms. As it stands Bolt Escape is world's ahead of any other defensive mechanism in the game.. it's not balanced.

Yes, Bolt Escape is a great defensive mechanism. The tradeoff is its incredibly high cost to recast. That is the balance.

If I flank the PvP zerg, throw a sneak attack snipe and some poison arrows, and bolt escape away, then my resources are completely depleted. I am out of the fight until I recover. It's a valid guerrilla tactic and the cost is the tradeoff. I do the same thing on my NB. Templars and DKs cannot do this. In place of escape tools like Bolt Escape or Cloak, they have survivability tools to mitigate damage and return health. Sorcs and NBs have no way to burst heal like Templars and DKs.

Nerf rock, paper is fine. - Scissors

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

You guys do realize that bolt escape got nerfed right? HARD. All of your complaining and crying were warranted pre-nerf. You can't just bolt around all willy nilly anymore.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

Hey kid, what's wrong? Please stop crying. I'm really sorry the mean bully pushed you. Will you stop crying if I change the tooltip? Would you feel better if I gave you a lollipop?

Bolt Escape
Stuns the caster for 10 seconds.

MADshadowman · August 2014

CLOSED

Sheaden · August 2014

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »

Sheaden wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Another sorc could easily follow him with their own BE. Its like people say, each build has their own thing, be it either block, invisibility or blink etc. I see nightblades dodge and invis all the time to get away from a larger group and succeeding with it, I wont cry for a nerf. Get over it and maybe next time you might catch him. Stop the whining.

Since when is block exclusive to ONE class? Invisibility is still broken from any Nightblade I've talked to and I don't think you want to open THAT can of worms. As it stands Bolt Escape is world's ahead of any other defensive mechanism in the game.. it's not balanced.

Yes, Bolt Escape is a great defensive mechanism. The tradeoff is its incredibly high cost to recast. That is the balance.

If I flank the PvP zerg, throw a sneak attack snipe and some poison arrows, and bolt escape away, then my resources are completely depleted. I am out of the fight until I recover. It's a valid guerrilla tactic and the cost is the tradeoff. I do the same thing on my NB. Templars and DKs cannot do this. In place of escape tools like Bolt Escape or Cloak, they have survivability tools to mitigate damage and return health. Sorcs and NBs have no way to burst heal like Templars and DKs.

Nerf rock, paper is fine. - Scissors

Umm, Nightblades don't have a burst heal I'll agree on that however Critical Surge is plenty capable of burst healing especially when coupled with the dark magic passive.

A 900 damage critical crystal fragment heals for 5% MAX health plus half of the crit damage. So 5% of say 2500 health = 125 plus half of 900 (450) is healing for nearly 600 damage (575) and those are conservative numbers. That's a solid bursty heal that's ALSO dealing a ton of damage SIMULTANEOUSLY.

High cost to cast? LOL Sorcs have insane reduction in ability cost. I've already covered this in a previous post. Clearly you're skimming through reading only what you want to see and completely disregarding clear examples of why it's not nearly as "expensive" as you try to make it out to be.

7 Light Armor - 21% reduction to all magicka based abilities
5 piece Seducer - 8% reduction
Unholy Knowledge passive- Reduce magicka and stamina ability cost 5%
Expert Mage passive - Reduce cost of Storm Calling abilities (Bolt escape) 10%

that's 44% reduction ... 47% if they are Breton due to the Breton racial

This doesn't take into consideration any other sets that may lower the cost of abilities, nor does it consider jewelry enchants that can lower this even further.

QQ some more about how expensive sorc abilites are please. Let's be real here.

Must also be rough having a passive 15% reduction in all ultimate costs. Sorcs have the best cost reduction passives in the game, period. Seriously, give me a break with that totally unrealistic argument that it's too expensive.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

So Sorcs are the only class that can wear 7/7 light for cost reduction?
So Sorcs are the only class that can wear cost reduction sets?
So Sorcs are the only class that have cost reduction passives?

I did read your thorough explanation on the cost of sorc abilities. I agree. However, not all sorcs wear skirts, hold sticks, and spam bolt escape. I myself, wear 7/7 med armor with bow/dw. That is besides the point. My point was that Bolt Escape is EXPENSIVE, post-nerf, compared to its class counterpart abilities used for survivability/mobility in PvP. You can apply those cost reductions to any classes abilities, albeit sorc has more. 11% more reduction compared to Templar, 15% compared to DK, and 15% compared to NB. What the other classes lack in cost reduction, they make up for in passives that boost the effectiveness of those survivability/mobility skills.

DK - Dragon Blood
7 Light Armor - 21% reduction
5 piece Seducer - 8% reduction
Breton - 3% reduction
Passive "Burning Heart" - +12% healing effectiveness
Total - 44% increased "effectiveness" (32% reduction, +12% healing)

Sorc - Bolt Escape
7 Light Armor - 21% reduction
5 piece Seducer - 8% reduction
Unholy Knowledge passive - 5% reduction
Passive "Expert Mage" - 10% reduction
Breton - 3% reduction
Total - 47% reduction

CONCLUSION:
You: Sorc abilities are NOT expensive! They're cheap! look at my math!
Me: So is every other survivability/mobility skill, and just as much cheaper from its base cost. Using Bolt Escape costs substantially more than Dragon Blood, Blazing Shield, or Dark Cloak. A tradeoff for its increased effectiveness of its use for survivability/mobility.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

To make a valid comparison you have to keep all factors equal except the ability in question.

A NB wearing skirt, spec'd for cost reduction, spamming cloak, invisible for 30 seconds

A DK wearing skirt, spec'd for cost reduction, holding block and spamming Dragon Blood when low on health.

A Sorc wearing skirt, spec'd for cost reduction, bolt escaping away.

A Templar wearing skirt, spec'd for cost reduction, holding block and spamming honor the dead when low on health.

All of these scenarios make these players seem unkillable.
Can they do this indefinitely? NO
Are they doing damage? NO
Are they surviving? YES

Sheaden · August 2014

So that's not an apples to apples comparison then. Now you're semantically changing the topic to "effectiveness". I'm talking straight up ability cost reduction.

Sorc reigns supreme in that category, sorry.

Oh and by the way the base cost of Green Dragon Blood and Dark Cloak is higher than Bolt Escape. Blazing shield costs less than bolt escape. #themoreuknow

Just created 3 brand new alts to verify this.. at level 3 with no ability points spent on any passives etc.. the base costs were as follows

Dragon Blood - 74 Magicka
Shadow Cloak - 72 Magicka
Bolt Escape - 63 Magicka
Sun Shield - 54 Magicka

So not only do Sorcs get the best ability cost reduction passives of any class, but with the exception of the templar's Sun Shield they have the cheapest base cost to start with of the abilities you're trying to compare.

Conclusion:
You don't fact check any "facts" you try and argue about. You just go on hunches of what you think you know, which turns out to be very little.

Cathexis · August 2014

Lol light armour and an arbitrary high end set lol so what about non-magika sorcs? You know the ones who don't get the benefit of those things? I guess fighting close range we shouldn't be able to have enough mana to use bolt escape and cast anything else. I guess I can just run away from a gank mobs 38 yard-range-or-more-for-snipe-or-range-stack

Sheaden · August 2014

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »

To make a valid comparison you have to keep all factors equal except the ability in question.

A NB wearing skirt, spec'd for cost reduction, spamming cloak, invisible for 30 seconds

A DK wearing skirt, spec'd for cost reduction, holding block and spamming Dragon Blood when low on health.

A Sorc wearing skirt, spec'd for cost reduction, bolt escaping away.

A Templar wearing skirt, spec'd for cost reduction, holding block and spamming honor the dead when low on health.

All of these scenarios make these players seem unkillable.
Can they do this indefinitely? NO
Are they doing damage? NO
Are they surviving? YES

The only difference between these of course which is pretty pertinent is that when the DK/NB/Templar run out of magicka they die. The sorc however is drinking a margarita on some white sandy beach 6 miles away. The rest of the classes are still definitively in harm's way.

Cathexis · August 2014

I fail to see how the other classes would be unable to remove themselves from harm.

Sheaden · August 2014

Cathexis wrote: »

Lol light armour and an arbitrary high end set lol so what about non-magika sorcs? You know the ones who don't get the benefit of those things? I guess fighting close range we shouldn't be able to have enough mana to use bolt escape and cast anything else. I guess I can just run away from a gank mobs 38 yard-range-or-more-for-snipe-or-range-stack

I certainly hope that sorc wasn't a stamina build... or we're all in trouble. LOL It should be pretty obvious why a stamina build isn't going to be able to exploit bolt escape which is a magicka based ability. If you need a more thorough explanation as to why, I'd encourage you to

Cathexis wrote: »

I fail to see how the other classes would be unable to remove themselves from harm.

Because the only other class besides sorc that has a mobility skill that moves them without taking them to a new hostile target is Nightblade. Nightblade does have refreshing path I guess but I don't know of many that actually use this ability. I've not used it myself but I've heard it's pretty underwhelming.

Templar - Toppling charge to an enemy
Nightblade - refreshing path run faster in a straight line.
Dragonknight - Take Flight - fly through the air to an enemy.
Sorc - Bolt Escape - lol lol lol look at me I can go where I please *teleport/stun* can't catch me can't catch me *teleport/stun* haha I'm immune to your CC ... can't catch me *teleport/stun* You mad bro? *teleport/stun* huehuehue

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Honestly, you people are like the people that sue mcdonalds because they burned themselves on the coffee just because they're too stupid to know that freshly brewed coffee is hot.

http://www.upworthy.com/ever-hear-about-the-lady-that-spilled-coffee-on-herself-at-mcdonalds-then-sued-for-millions
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

Might want to read up on what actually happened there. The woman had to have medical treatment for two years afterwards, including numerous skin grafts. Also, the amount of "Seriously Dude" lines on this thread are getting downright farcical.

So you're saying that when you get a cup of coffee from Mcdonald you expect it to be lukewarm or cold. Gtfo I don't care how much surgery you caused yourself to have coffee is gonna be hot. Don't put it on your dashboard then floor it out of the McDonald's drive thru.

did you even read the links? Have you ever spilled coffee on yourself? I have, and it didn't require two years of treatment. I didn't get third degree burns. She didn't sue them just because it was hot, the temperature was extreme.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

Sheaden wrote: »

Conclusion:
You don't fact check any "facts" you try and argue about. You just go on hunches of what you think you know, which turns out to be very little.

Reference: ESOHEAD

Bolt Escape
Teleports player forward and stuns nearby enemies for 1.5 seconds. Out of combat Magicka recovery is halved 4 seconds. After casting, the next Bolt Escape cast within 4 seconds costs 50% more.

You don't fact check any "facts" you try and argue about. You just go on hunches of what you think you know, which turns out to be very little.

THAT is why it costs more, to use it effectively, you need to cast it multiple times to "escape". Over a few uses, it costs substantially more per cast and it halves your magicka regeneration.

DO THE MATH

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

Sheaden wrote: »

The only difference between these of course which is pretty pertinent is that when the DK/NB/Templar run out of magicka they die. The sorc however is drinking a margarita on some white sandy beach 6 miles away. The rest of the classes are still definitively in harm's way.

lol. YES. That is why I chose sorc for my sneaky, guerrilla sniper. Sneak in, assassinate a target, and get the f u c k out of dodge. Is that so bad to want to play like this when you are completely outnumbered?

Is it OP and needs nerfing when a sorc is streaking through your zerg and loling, disorienting people, causing 312 dmg (2400 magicka, 130 spell dmg). It used to be when it could be done 20 times in a row. Now, after nerf, with max magicka, regen, and max possible cost reduction, maybe 5-6 times. But thats it. Fizzled out little candle that did nothing but annoy some people who came to the forum to complain.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

You guys are on the ropes. You're vision is tunneling, about to black out. You're swinging at air. Just go down. Stay down.

On second thought, I'm enjoying you 2 morons grasping at straws, fruitlessly clamoring for the sake of bliss ignorance.

This is fun.

What else u got?

Sheaden · August 2014

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »

Sheaden wrote: »

Conclusion:
You don't fact check any "facts" you try and argue about. You just go on hunches of what you think you know, which turns out to be very little.

Reference: ESOHEAD

Bolt Escape
Teleports player forward and stuns nearby enemies for 1.5 seconds. Out of combat Magicka recovery is halved 4 seconds. After casting, the next Bolt Escape cast within 4 seconds costs 50% more.

You don't fact check any "facts" you try and argue about. You just go on hunches of what you think you know, which turns out to be very little.

THAT is why it costs more, to use it effectively, you need to cast it multiple times to "escape". Over a few uses, it costs substantially more per cast and it halves your magicka regeneration.

DO THE MATH

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »

CONCLUSION:
You: Sorc abilities are NOT expensive! They're cheap! look at my math!
Me: So is every other survivability/mobility skill, and just as much cheaper from its BASE COST. Using Bolt Escape costs substantially more than Dragon Blood, Blazing Shield, or Dark Cloak. A tradeoff for its increased effectiveness of its use for survivability/mobility.

I was referring to YOUR post that was discussing the Base Cost which was completely inaccurate.

My point being that with the improved methods of reduction now available since the recent patches... this ability is still being utilized in a fashion more in line with how it was pre-nerf. Did I say it was the same or better than pre-nerf? No... I said it's closer to pre-nerf now that these changes are in effect. That point can not be argued. Builds based on magicka reduction have improved based on recent patches. In order to utilize Bolt escape in a way consistent with how this sorc I observed used it, he must have been running some sort of magicka reduction build.

So for ease of math if Bolt Escape costs 100 magicka and you have 20% reduction it'll cost 80 magicka. Use it again within 4 seconds it costs 120 magicka. (150% or 150 minus 20% 30 = 120)

if it costs 100 and you have 47% reduction it'll cost 53. Use it again within 4 seconds now it costs 79.5 (80). 150% of base (150) - 47% reduction (70.5) = 79.5 (80).

So once you get to a certain level of reduction even WITH the nerf... you're still casting it with some reduction in effect even with the penalty.

With recent patches the amount of reduction has increased ... and so have the overall resource pool sizes.. (the soft cap of max magicka has increased).

This is why I posed the question initially "Is Bolt Escape still too cheap?" After witnessing how effective it was being utilized in light of the new changes.

Sheaden · August 2014

I should probably stop now or I'm likely to convince even more sorcs (than there already are) to abuse this ability in Cyrodiil.

ghengis_dhan · August 2014

Sheaden, you are making your assessment based on ONE observation of a single sorcerer and a single group. You said you were not part of the group so you have no way of knowing the skill level of everyone you observed.

I did my own research today by using a skill point to unlock Bolt Escape, and I was unable to reproduce a 15 minute chase and taunt against a competent group using Bolt Escape alone. I kept getting snared, so I was unable to sprint when I ran out of magicka.

The only way to reproduce what you described was by using Bolt Escape with Retreating Maneuver and speed potions. So, the problem (if it really is a problem) was not Bolt Escape, but using the three together.

I am also convinced that a vampire using Elusive Mist, a nightblade using Path of Darkness, or another sorcerer using Boundless Storm would have no problem keeping up with a Bolt Escaping sorcerer. If all were using Retreating Maneuver and speed potions, the Bolt Escaping sorcerer would never get away unless they make it to a resource or keep.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

Alright, gloves down. Let's talk a bit.

You make a valid point. With the increased magicka pool, increased effectiveness of the new crafted sets, and increased magicka regen soft cap, your original question "Is Bolt Escape still too cheap?" is warranted. All of this equates to maybe 2 more casts, 3 if you can milk it. (an increase of 500-600 on the soft cap). Stronger than post nerf. Weaker than pre nerf. I will give you that.

That being said. All abilities, skills, damage, health, number of uses of survivability skills, number of uses of mobility skills, etc. have been increased as well.

The playing field is still even.

Play ball.

Yusuf · August 2014

@Sheaden Please stop doing insane math and applying it to every sorcerer who's using this skill, i'm a highelf with poor magickaregen and no costreduction through set-pieces at all which means i only have my 7/7 light-armorpieces so i only have half of your theoretical OP-ness.

I use this ability offensively in pvp and pve and have done so since almost launch even before people were crying about it.

When i'm outnumbered i try my best to escape but i do the same when i play on my v2 Nightblade (and no, Cloak is not comlpetely broken as long as you don't apply dots to anyone).

People who aren't intrested in fair fights and gang up on one player shouldn't be complaining about balance when they're outsmarted or the other player gets lucky.

Sheaden · August 2014

Yusuf wrote: »

@Sheaden Please stop doing insane math and applying it to every sorcerer who's using this skill, i'm a highelf with poor magickaregen and no costreduction through set-pieces at all which means i only have my 7/7 light-armorpieces so i only have half of your theoretical OP-ness.

I use this ability offensively in pvp and pve and have done so since almost launch even before people were crying about it.

When i'm outnumbered i try my best to escape but i do the same when i play on my v2 Nightblade (and no, Cloak is not comlpetely broken as long as you don't apply dots to anyone).

People who aren't intrested in fair fights and gang up on one player shouldn't be complaining about balance when they're outsmarted or the other player gets lucky.

So 7 players gang up on one player and can't kill him... how is one player supposed to fair any better? Since you're all up on the let's fight fair pedestal. Give me a break.

P.S. I'm sorry if my use of 5th grade mathematics is blowing your mind. I'll try hard in subsequent posts to keep my "insane math" to a minimum.

MADshadowman · August 2014

Snip

Dude get over it already, you're really getting ridiculous here. You try to defend your opinion which is obviously not shared by us, cause we are actual sorcs and pvp players and know what bolt escape can do, and what not. i get hit by bow users for 1300+ damage in only 1 shot and do i come to the forums to whine about it? i don't. I've tried to escape many times and i failed many times and i saw others trying to escape many times and they also failed.

Just yesterday, we were chasing a sorc after taking a resource and he was bolting away. So i got on my horse and ran past him. He stealthed, i turned around and when his stelth broke, i smacked him to the ground. Problem solved.

Everyone in your group could have done this, but no one did. so don't complain about it. since you like math so much, you should be able to follow this logic: someone who uses his full potential will always be better than someone who doesn't.

And don't try to justify this with "we couldn't mount our horses cause we were in combat" Stop attacking and it will take a maximum of 30 seconds for you to leave combat and mount your horse, so this chase could have been over after 1 minute.

Snip

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

dsalter · August 2014

nicholaspingasb16_ESO wrote: »

using blot escape should prevent stealth for 20 seconds after use. That way, you have to actually avoid people after spamming it 15 times.

make it 15seconds and i'd approve. also i use a sorc daily and even i can achieve this, it's stupid, bolt 5-6 times, press shift, auto win as they try find me

Mogdor · August 2014

Sheaden wrote: »

Cyberdown wrote: »

so someone escaped pvp from you...get over it.

Obviously reading comprehension wasn't a strong point for you in school. I watched him escape from an ENTIRE GROUP (about 6-7 people) that pursued him for about 15 minutes.

This entire group had no retreating manouver or mounts? And you had the opportunity to WATCH this whole thing happen, grats.