Tanks are unneeded end game.

Nicky_W · August 2014

I have a V12 DK in full light with staff.
I tank regularly in vet dungeons (not trials)
It's very easy to tank , even with no attributes in stamina and on top of that I still do 600+ dps whilst tanking.

I'm not saying its right, but that is just how the game is right now.

TehMagnus · August 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, (???) but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

*CURIOUS WHY balancing/raising stats/DPS would then make melee/warriors o-p to casters SINCE many posts in this thread keep hammering how TANKISH builds are needed only a smidge to none anyhow.

(*) IF we (all base classes) are supposed to be performing in that fantastical 'be everything you can be that you wanna be' mold...then strengthening melee types, giving them much higher STAM REGEN, and upping their DPS would be exactly what should be done to achieve that so they are just as 'needed' as the lucky magika flood builds. (*)

#2: "Be everything you can be/wanna be": I dare you to show me any official announcement from ZOS where they state that no matter how you play or what you decide to do, you'll always be able to do it with the same level of effectiveness. Nobody is stopping you from playing a heavy armor tank sorcerer, yet you will NEVER be as effective as the other classes, you'll still be able to tank though being everything you wanna be in the process. Nobody is stopping you from playing a caster in heavy armor, yet you will never be as effective damage-wise as a caster in light armor. Play as you want doesn't imply that no matter how you play you will succeed or be as good as the guys that play as they should. Thinking the oposite is just being unrealistic.

I have to stop you right here. I have both a DK in Heavy Armor V12 Yokeda 4 piece with hist bark and Yokeda weapon and shield,3 piece unassailable jewelry. Dk is supposed to be this high survivability high utility type class. Making it an obvious choice for a tank. He has 2800 armor when runnign spiked armor with that gear and 3400 hit points and is 8 over charged in spell resistance.

I also have a V12 sorc I have tanked with both extensively . In VR content i have all working dungeon achievments and have used both in trials.The sorc when tanking can either use a 5 piece martial knowledge Light with 5 piece warlock tanking running Aegis and storm armor. in that set up the sorc will have about 2400 armor and the spell resist will be through the roof like 1200 over soft cap. with about 3k hitpoints.
i also have a alessia and histbark set of heavy for the sorc. in that set up there the sorc has over 3k armor and 800 over soft cap spell resist.

By far the sorc destroys the Dk in performance for tanking and in my opinion it is the bet tank in game by far. Maybe a well played templar will do better as it will allow the healer to DPS more. The sorc handles trash far better then the DK while throing down 2k AOE DPS in heavy armor if i so chose to wear the worthless garbage.The sorc has roots and a massive CC that will recharge faster then any ultimate in game, it stops everything in trash pulls . As far as ST damage its not even close the sorc destroys the Dk in damage while tanking. Anyone who doubts i will bring to COH , shada or any VR dungeon of your choice and prove to you the simple fact. the DK GDB is useful for soling Talons is a buggy piece of crap that costs far to much to use.Reflective scales i can do the same thing with a SNS ability. the Dk brings nothing but some mediocre utility after all the nerfs . Banner is useful yes but only for a banner spammer spec it will produce some nice DPS.

This game does not function like you think it does. People dont use sorc as a tank because people who rolled a sorc didnt do it to tank. And if they tank with it and struggle i have no problem taking you along on some runs and showing you the ropes.

You clearly don't know how to tank as a DK then

. In a group play in a hard PVE dungeon against hard bosses DK > sorc and that's all that matters anyways since anyone can clear trash without even having to tank, just spam 1 impulse and the rest elemental rings.

You may think you actually did something while CCing the trash and using AOE spells but that's not tanking anymore and it will never be as effective as a sorc that isn't tanking.

Tank Crypt of Heats or do trials with a sorc tank and do as much DPS as a DK tank (And the DK tank in my guild does 1K+ DPS on some bosses), then we'll talk.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, (???) but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

*CURIOUS WHY balancing/raising stats/DPS would then make melee/warriors o-p to casters SINCE many posts in this thread keep hammering how TANKISH builds are needed only a smidge to none anyhow.

(*) IF we (all base classes) are supposed to be performing in that fantastical 'be everything you can be that you wanna be' mold...then strengthening melee types, giving them much higher STAM REGEN, and upping their DPS would be exactly what should be done to achieve that so they are just as 'needed' as the lucky magika flood builds. (*)

#2: "Be everything you can be/wanna be": I dare you to show me any official announcement from ZOS where they state that no matter how you play or what you decide to do, you'll always be able to do it with the same level of effectiveness. Nobody is stopping you from playing a heavy armor tank sorcerer, yet you will NEVER be as effective as the other classes, you'll still be able to tank though being everything you wanna be in the process. Nobody is stopping you from playing a caster in heavy armor, yet you will never be as effective damage-wise as a caster in light armor. Play as you want doesn't imply that no matter how you play you will succeed or be as good as the guys that play as they should. Thinking the oposite is just being unrealistic.

I have to stop you right here. I have both a DK in Heavy Armor V12 Yokeda 4 piece with hist bark and Yokeda weapon and shield,3 piece unassailable jewelry. Dk is supposed to be this high survivability high utility type class. Making it an obvious choice for a tank. He has 2800 armor when runnign spiked armor with that gear and 3400 hit points and is 8 over charged in spell resistance.

I also have a V12 sorc I have tanked with both extensively . In VR content i have all working dungeon achievments and have used both in trials.The sorc when tanking can either use a 5 piece martial knowledge Light with 5 piece warlock tanking running Aegis and storm armor. in that set up the sorc will have about 2400 armor and the spell resist will be through the roof like 1200 over soft cap. with about 3k hitpoints.
i also have a alessia and histbark set of heavy for the sorc. in that set up there the sorc has over 3k armor and 800 over soft cap spell resist.

By far the sorc destroys the Dk in performance for tanking and in my opinion it is the bet tank in game by far. Maybe a well played templar will do better as it will allow the healer to DPS more. The sorc handles trash far better then the DK while throing down 2k AOE DPS in heavy armor if i so chose to wear the worthless garbage.The sorc has roots and a massive CC that will recharge faster then any ultimate in game, it stops everything in trash pulls . As far as ST damage its not even close the sorc destroys the Dk in damage while tanking. Anyone who doubts i will bring to COH , shada or any VR dungeon of your choice and prove to you the simple fact. the DK GDB is useful for soling Talons is a buggy piece of crap that costs far to much to use.Reflective scales i can do the same thing with a SNS ability. the Dk brings nothing but some mediocre utility after all the nerfs . Banner is useful yes but only for a banner spammer spec it will produce some nice DPS.

This game does not function like you think it does. People dont use sorc as a tank because people who rolled a sorc didnt do it to tank. And if they tank with it and struggle i have no problem taking you along on some runs and showing you the ropes.

You clearly don't know how to tank as a DK then .

I clearly Do even nick konkle plays a sorc tank

i challenge you to tank off! you up for it? Dungeon of your choice

TehMagnus · August 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, (???) but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

*CURIOUS WHY balancing/raising stats/DPS would then make melee/warriors o-p to casters SINCE many posts in this thread keep hammering how TANKISH builds are needed only a smidge to none anyhow.

(*) IF we (all base classes) are supposed to be performing in that fantastical 'be everything you can be that you wanna be' mold...then strengthening melee types, giving them much higher STAM REGEN, and upping their DPS would be exactly what should be done to achieve that so they are just as 'needed' as the lucky magika flood builds. (*)

#2: "Be everything you can be/wanna be": I dare you to show me any official announcement from ZOS where they state that no matter how you play or what you decide to do, you'll always be able to do it with the same level of effectiveness. Nobody is stopping you from playing a heavy armor tank sorcerer, yet you will NEVER be as effective as the other classes, you'll still be able to tank though being everything you wanna be in the process. Nobody is stopping you from playing a caster in heavy armor, yet you will never be as effective damage-wise as a caster in light armor. Play as you want doesn't imply that no matter how you play you will succeed or be as good as the guys that play as they should. Thinking the oposite is just being unrealistic.

I have to stop you right here. I have both a DK in Heavy Armor V12 Yokeda 4 piece with hist bark and Yokeda weapon and shield,3 piece unassailable jewelry. Dk is supposed to be this high survivability high utility type class. Making it an obvious choice for a tank. He has 2800 armor when runnign spiked armor with that gear and 3400 hit points and is 8 over charged in spell resistance.

I also have a V12 sorc I have tanked with both extensively . In VR content i have all working dungeon achievments and have used both in trials.The sorc when tanking can either use a 5 piece martial knowledge Light with 5 piece warlock tanking running Aegis and storm armor. in that set up the sorc will have about 2400 armor and the spell resist will be through the roof like 1200 over soft cap. with about 3k hitpoints.
i also have a alessia and histbark set of heavy for the sorc. in that set up there the sorc has over 3k armor and 800 over soft cap spell resist.

By far the sorc destroys the Dk in performance for tanking and in my opinion it is the bet tank in game by far. Maybe a well played templar will do better as it will allow the healer to DPS more. The sorc handles trash far better then the DK while throing down 2k AOE DPS in heavy armor if i so chose to wear the worthless garbage.The sorc has roots and a massive CC that will recharge faster then any ultimate in game, it stops everything in trash pulls . As far as ST damage its not even close the sorc destroys the Dk in damage while tanking. Anyone who doubts i will bring to COH , shada or any VR dungeon of your choice and prove to you the simple fact. the DK GDB is useful for soling Talons is a buggy piece of crap that costs far to much to use.Reflective scales i can do the same thing with a SNS ability. the Dk brings nothing but some mediocre utility after all the nerfs . Banner is useful yes but only for a banner spammer spec it will produce some nice DPS.

This game does not function like you think it does. People dont use sorc as a tank because people who rolled a sorc didnt do it to tank. And if they tank with it and struggle i have no problem taking you along on some runs and showing you the ropes.

You clearly don't know how to tank as a DK then .

I clearly Do even nick konkle plays a sorc tank i challenge you to tank off! you up for it? Dungeon of your choice

As I edited after:

In a group play in a hard PVE dungeon against hard bosses DK > sorc and that's all that matters anyways since anyone can clear trash without even having to tank, just spam 1 impulse and the rest elemental rings.

You may think you actually did something while CCing the trash and using AOE spells but that's not tanking anymore and it will never be as effective as a sorc that isn't tanking.

Tank Crypt of Heats or do trials with a sorc tank and do as much DPS as a DK tank (And the DK tank in my guild does 1K+ DPS on some bosses so gl), then we'll talk.

Maverick827 · August 2014

Sorcs can get higher combined Spell Resist and Armor values but that's really all they have going for them. They don't have a single class ability for tanking, which might not be an issue now but some of us fools still hope that one day tanking will matter, and when that day comes Sorcs will have nothing.

Dark Talons costs significantly less than Encase and does way more damage.

Reflective Scales is also much different than Absorb Magic. It reflects all spells for the duration, not just one, and it costs magicka, not stamina (of which Sorcs have no way to replenish).

Sorcs need some sort of damage mitigation ultimate and some sort of AoE miss/personal dodge spell. Perhaps add miss chance to Lightning Splash or fix Conjure Ward in some way.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, (???) but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

*CURIOUS WHY balancing/raising stats/DPS would then make melee/warriors o-p to casters SINCE many posts in this thread keep hammering how TANKISH builds are needed only a smidge to none anyhow.

(*) IF we (all base classes) are supposed to be performing in that fantastical 'be everything you can be that you wanna be' mold...then strengthening melee types, giving them much higher STAM REGEN, and upping their DPS would be exactly what should be done to achieve that so they are just as 'needed' as the lucky magika flood builds. (*)

#2: "Be everything you can be/wanna be": I dare you to show me any official announcement from ZOS where they state that no matter how you play or what you decide to do, you'll always be able to do it with the same level of effectiveness. Nobody is stopping you from playing a heavy armor tank sorcerer, yet you will NEVER be as effective as the other classes, you'll still be able to tank though being everything you wanna be in the process. Nobody is stopping you from playing a caster in heavy armor, yet you will never be as effective damage-wise as a caster in light armor. Play as you want doesn't imply that no matter how you play you will succeed or be as good as the guys that play as they should. Thinking the oposite is just being unrealistic.

I have to stop you right here. I have both a DK in Heavy Armor V12 Yokeda 4 piece with hist bark and Yokeda weapon and shield,3 piece unassailable jewelry. Dk is supposed to be this high survivability high utility type class. Making it an obvious choice for a tank. He has 2800 armor when runnign spiked armor with that gear and 3400 hit points and is 8 over charged in spell resistance.

I also have a V12 sorc I have tanked with both extensively . In VR content i have all working dungeon achievments and have used both in trials.The sorc when tanking can either use a 5 piece martial knowledge Light with 5 piece warlock tanking running Aegis and storm armor. in that set up the sorc will have about 2400 armor and the spell resist will be through the roof like 1200 over soft cap. with about 3k hitpoints.
i also have a alessia and histbark set of heavy for the sorc. in that set up there the sorc has over 3k armor and 800 over soft cap spell resist.

By far the sorc destroys the Dk in performance for tanking and in my opinion it is the bet tank in game by far. Maybe a well played templar will do better as it will allow the healer to DPS more. The sorc handles trash far better then the DK while throing down 2k AOE DPS in heavy armor if i so chose to wear the worthless garbage.The sorc has roots and a massive CC that will recharge faster then any ultimate in game, it stops everything in trash pulls . As far as ST damage its not even close the sorc destroys the Dk in damage while tanking. Anyone who doubts i will bring to COH , shada or any VR dungeon of your choice and prove to you the simple fact. the DK GDB is useful for soling Talons is a buggy piece of crap that costs far to much to use.Reflective scales i can do the same thing with a SNS ability. the Dk brings nothing but some mediocre utility after all the nerfs . Banner is useful yes but only for a banner spammer spec it will produce some nice DPS.

This game does not function like you think it does. People dont use sorc as a tank because people who rolled a sorc didnt do it to tank. And if they tank with it and struggle i have no problem taking you along on some runs and showing you the ropes.

You clearly don't know how to tank as a DK then . In a group play in a hard PVE dungeon against hard bosses DK > sorc and that's all that matters anyways since anyone can clear trash without even having to tank, just spam 1 impulse and the rest elemental rings.

You may think you actually did something while CCing the trash and using AOE spells but that's not tanking anymore and it will never be as effective as a sorc that isn't tanking.

Tank Crypt of Heats or do trials with a sorc tank and do as much DPS as a DK tank (And the DK tank in my guild does 1K+ DPS on some bosses), then we'll talk.

That is gear dependent, and i bet he is using the banner spammer spec. the whole point of this converstaion is A tank is not a tank. Sure if i were a dunnmer DK in all Trial gear likely he is using aether and some fire damage gear i would pull as much DPS with my DK. but i rolled a logical choice for tank build Orc it will never pull that DPS with no fire damage racial. but unfortuantely this game was so poorly designed and the trinity so horribly implemented there are actually two role in ESO DPS that taunts and DPS that heals. that has nothing to do with not knowing how to tank. the majority of players will never touch top trial times, nor will they have that gear. and majority of the server has not even gone through COH or passed the last boss in shadda. I am guessing if you had a slkilled sorc willing to tank with proper gear he would do just as well as your DK .

The truth is a tank is not a tank in this game , the mechaincs are god damn lame and you know it. even more so in trials its all DPS with heals . there is no real group dynamics. no interupts stuns or silencing not real LOS mechanics its dodge some circles run in some damage reducer and burn boss faster then he can pull out his next big mechanic. As for thinking i did some thing with CC when you have to pug and your not some eltisist uber guy that have all trial gear sand slam people for not being able to do xyz dps then yes i suppose your geared group would do far better then my pug i pull together walk them through the fights and get the job done. While your busy destroying the community with Elitist attitudes i'm trying to help them. Still i concure your Trial geared DK would certainly do better then my sorc. you are the winner sir

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

Sorcs can get higher combined Spell Resist and Armor values but that's really all they have going for them. They don't have a single class ability for tanking, which might not be an issue now but some of us fools still hope that one day tanking will matter, and when that day comes Sorcs will have nothing.

Dark Talons costs significantly less than Encase and does way more damage.

Reflective Scales is also much different than Absorb Magic. It reflects all spells for the duration, not just one, and it costs magicka, not stamina (of which Sorcs have no way to replenish).

Sorcs need some sort of damage mitigation ultimate and some sort of AoE miss/personal dodge spell. Perhaps add miss chance to Lightning Splash or fix Conjure Ward in some way.

I agree Maverick i have both DK and Sorc and i clearly hope they fix this . but since tanking is not tanking in this game. I personaly think the Stam regen on GDB is not enough. the 30% heal only meatters if your healer is horrible in VR dngeons. Reflective scales is so damn situational i rarly use it . maybe on shada if the templar can handle the black bubble of doom for those one shot casters.

If i even needed one of those DK abilities that look good on paper i would be playing my DK in a heart beat right now its all useless with a healer that even remotely knows what he is doing. The DPs flexibility on the sorc is why i like it i can Puddles archers while storm armoring and cursing the the melee on me, while destro swapping.

I rarely use encase in all honesty i use tons of choke point tactics so volcanic rune is far better for my tactics. I dont really use talons that much ill throw done embers and in a choke point and get a much longer DOT. As for scales i find the passive block reduction more then a 4 second reflect. With all the nerfs Dk got the only real set up thats good for tanking is the Dunmer DK banner spammer L/A.

Beleive me im pissed at the situation i think its crappy implementation of the trinity system bad design and by far one of the worst decisions ESO made.

Maverick827 · August 2014

Yeah, I use most of the same tactics when I can (pugs don't like to LOS a lot of the time). For my mitigation build I'm using 5H/2L:

1H/Shield: Inner Beast / Deep Slash / Absorb Magic / Thundering Presence / Twilight Matriarch (testing)

Resto: Siphon Spirit / Volcanic Rune / Degeneration (testing) / Endless Fury / Twilight Matriarch

Trash is just light armor/Volcanic Rune/Impulse spam.

The goal is mitigation, self-healing, and resource regeneration, and wearing heavy armor because I'm just at the point in this game where I'm sick of wearing a dress. All of it pretty much unnecessary but I don't want to DPS tank.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

Yeah, I use most of the same tactics when I can (pugs don't like to LOS a lot of the time). For my mitigation build I'm using 5H/2L:

1H/Shield: Inner Beast / Deep Slash / Absorb Magic / Thundering Presence / Twilight Matriarch (testing)

Resto: Siphon Spirit / Volcanic Rune / Degeneration (testing) / Endless Fury / Twilight Matriarch

Trash is just light armor/Volcanic Rune/Impulse spam.

The goal is mitigation, self-healing, and resource regeneration, and wearing heavy armor because I'm just at the point in this game where I'm sick of wearing a dress. All of it pretty much unnecessary but I don't want to DPS tank.

I wear heavy for aesthitic purposes but if i get some DPs tht is struggling ill switch to martial and pick up the difference. Could wear L/A the whole way through but i made all the stuff so why not look cool. thinking about throwing all the yokeda on my sorc wwith unassasilable and see what its like running Aegis and storm armor im guesiing ill be well over hard cap on Armor and spell resist.

Anu_Saukko_Tutkija · August 2014

this is bull...it so i have payed my Templar tank for 3 months now, and now you say it is useless???!!!?? so now i have to make light armor DK/healer to manage on pvp?!? ZENIMAX!!!!! THIS IS BAD!! THE GAME IS BADLY BROKEN NOW!!! i don't want to start new char. now i understand why ppl on zone tell they quit i will to this is to much, i want to play, i dont want to someone tell me how to play!

Muletide · August 2014

Problem #1: Allowing Light Armor to be any kind of tank or mitigation option.

Problem #2: Creating the first and only endgame content to be a DPS race that is dependent on a certain build niche in a game that prides itself on open character/build creation.

Problem #3: Myself, as an early access supporter and someone who stood by this game through all the launch mudslinging and problems, is now finding it hard to click that continue sub button because I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY A CLOTH AND STAVE CHARACTER.

Anastasia · August 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

Do you use DPS meters. Because this is clearly not the case .
A Dk in heavy armor or any class for that matter will never burst as hard as a caster in light. I have both a Dk in heavy and hundings medium for a melee dps build

I also have a Sorc in 5 warlock 5 martial knowledge. My sorc will burst for 4 and 5 k lol for short period and level off around 700 to 1k (For reference i do not DPs that much i usally tank so my numbers and build are no where near what they could be)

My Dk can burst for maybe 1k in full hundings and lvl off at about 400 DPs in sustained fights. NB are a bit better but the will never burst as hard as a Nb in a dress and stick. the situation you describe is how things should work, its how all MMO's design a Melee DPS.

The flaw in your logic is Casters tank better then Warrior builds Light armor tanks as well or better then heavy . I am baffled about how little the community is aware of the tanking issues , and the lack there of. This game has several issues in group mechanics and the tanking role is a huge broken spot in these mechanics

Muletide wrote: »

Problem #1: Allowing Light Armor to be any kind of tank or mitigation option.

Problem #2: Creating the first and only endgame content to be a DPS race that is dependent on a certain build niche in a game that prides itself on open character/build creation.

Problem #3: Myself, as an early access supporter and someone who stood by this game through all the launch mudslinging and problems, is now finding it hard to click that continue sub button because I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY A CLOTH AND STAVE CHARACTER.

Me - three. (+ quite a few friends)

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2014

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

The problem with this notion is that you can be a 'wizard' in Heavy Armor. Why does wearing Heavy Armor suddenly make you not a wizard? There have even been 'classes' in Elder Scrolls for just this purpose. What do you think my Templar is doing when he uses Blazing shield? How about Aedric Spear attacks? Please, I'm tired of hearing this argument. Heavy Armor, Medium armor, and Light armor are just a strategy choice. At the end of the day ALL our characters are wizards. If this were not so, then the Sorcerer class should be the only class we roll.

Also, Wizards in many games are usually better at AOE damage but not single target dps (Such as the Dual Wield or Bow user). I'm not saying this necessarily makes logical sense, but again many of the Bow or Dual wield attacks have a magical component to them. All of our characters are epic, magical aberrations of nature, as a result of Molag Bal. What armor we choose to wear is totally unrelated as to whether we carry a staff or wear robes. Armor really represents an attempt at rock-paper-scissors, but it needs some fine tuning. At the end of the day, Robes should not offer very good protection versus a poleaxe or an arrow. The problem we have now is that choice in armor is not really meaningful, except for robes.

Durham · August 2014

This really tough to balance... Mage vs. Melee always an issue ..it will always be an issue...Many casters are already scared of invasion tanks... I think balance will be achieved with an immovible nerf or fix...

1. Remove amor/resist buff to this ability if there is no heavy being used by the player.

I do not mind a caster using immovible i do mind their armor going 2k+ while they have it up.....keep in mind melee have issues using this ability due to the fact they are using endo for other things...casters are not really...

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Durham wrote: »

This really tough to balance... Mage vs. Melee always an issue ..it will always be an issue...Many casters are already scared of invasion tanks... I think balance will be achieved with an immovible nerf or fix...

1. Remove amor/resist buff to this ability if there is no heavy being used by the player.

I do not mind a caster using immovible i do mind their armor going 2k+ while they have it up.....keep in mind melee have issues using this ability due to the fact they are using endo for other things...casters are not really...

It goes well beyond this in pve. So many issues in cluding bad game mecanics

coryevans_3b14_ESO · August 2014

This problem will never be solved. I don't see how people think it will be. The devs are obviously content with the way things are now. This is why they don't, and will not, change anything. The game has been around long enough to get a feel for what the priorities are for ZOS. The trials that are based on dps ONLY, phasing making it nearly (totally in my case) impossible to get a group together to do "end game" questing in Craglorn. Also due partly to the fact that the xp and rewards suck. ZOS likes to have people grinding mobs to get to max level and then put on the skirt/stick if you want to compete in trials.

This game has the absolutely worst pve end game of ANY mmo ever made. (exaggerating? I seriously couldn't think of a game with worse end game. swtor had better end game ffs)

chris_clemencyb14_ESO · August 2014

I think you missed the point Cahuani. I don't care how OP wizards are, but they should be OP glass cannons that NEED a tank to get aggro so they don't get 1 shotted. Unfortunately, that is not the case. I am really sick of new games ignoring the trinity. I love this game, but without a trinity system, what good are classes? Might as well let us pick whatever we want and all use the same spells and wear the same clothes...

TehMagnus · August 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, (???) but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

*CURIOUS WHY balancing/raising stats/DPS would then make melee/warriors o-p to casters SINCE many posts in this thread keep hammering how TANKISH builds are needed only a smidge to none anyhow.

(*) IF we (all base classes) are supposed to be performing in that fantastical 'be everything you can be that you wanna be' mold...then strengthening melee types, giving them much higher STAM REGEN, and upping their DPS would be exactly what should be done to achieve that so they are just as 'needed' as the lucky magika flood builds. (*)

#2: "Be everything you can be/wanna be": I dare you to show me any official announcement from ZOS where they state that no matter how you play or what you decide to do, you'll always be able to do it with the same level of effectiveness. Nobody is stopping you from playing a heavy armor tank sorcerer, yet you will NEVER be as effective as the other classes, you'll still be able to tank though being everything you wanna be in the process. Nobody is stopping you from playing a caster in heavy armor, yet you will never be as effective damage-wise as a caster in light armor. Play as you want doesn't imply that no matter how you play you will succeed or be as good as the guys that play as they should. Thinking the oposite is just being unrealistic.

I have to stop you right here. I have both a DK in Heavy Armor V12 Yokeda 4 piece with hist bark and Yokeda weapon and shield,3 piece unassailable jewelry. Dk is supposed to be this high survivability high utility type class. Making it an obvious choice for a tank. He has 2800 armor when runnign spiked armor with that gear and 3400 hit points and is 8 over charged in spell resistance.

I also have a V12 sorc I have tanked with both extensively . In VR content i have all working dungeon achievments and have used both in trials.The sorc when tanking can either use a 5 piece martial knowledge Light with 5 piece warlock tanking running Aegis and storm armor. in that set up the sorc will have about 2400 armor and the spell resist will be through the roof like 1200 over soft cap. with about 3k hitpoints.
i also have a alessia and histbark set of heavy for the sorc. in that set up there the sorc has over 3k armor and 800 over soft cap spell resist.

By far the sorc destroys the Dk in performance for tanking and in my opinion it is the bet tank in game by far. Maybe a well played templar will do better as it will allow the healer to DPS more. The sorc handles trash far better then the DK while throing down 2k AOE DPS in heavy armor if i so chose to wear the worthless garbage.The sorc has roots and a massive CC that will recharge faster then any ultimate in game, it stops everything in trash pulls . As far as ST damage its not even close the sorc destroys the Dk in damage while tanking. Anyone who doubts i will bring to COH , shada or any VR dungeon of your choice and prove to you the simple fact. the DK GDB is useful for soling Talons is a buggy piece of crap that costs far to much to use.Reflective scales i can do the same thing with a SNS ability. the Dk brings nothing but some mediocre utility after all the nerfs . Banner is useful yes but only for a banner spammer spec it will produce some nice DPS.

This game does not function like you think it does. People dont use sorc as a tank because people who rolled a sorc didnt do it to tank. And if they tank with it and struggle i have no problem taking you along on some runs and showing you the ropes.

You clearly don't know how to tank as a DK then . In a group play in a hard PVE dungeon against hard bosses DK > sorc and that's all that matters anyways since anyone can clear trash without even having to tank, just spam 1 impulse and the rest elemental rings.

You may think you actually did something while CCing the trash and using AOE spells but that's not tanking anymore and it will never be as effective as a sorc that isn't tanking.

Tank Crypt of Heats or do trials with a sorc tank and do as much DPS as a DK tank (And the DK tank in my guild does 1K+ DPS on some bosses), then we'll talk.

That is gear dependent, and i bet he is using the banner spammer spec. the whole point of this converstaion is A tank is not a tank. Sure if i were a dunnmer DK in all Trial gear likely he is using aether and some fire damage gear i would pull as much DPS with my DK. but i rolled a logical choice for tank build Orc it will never pull that DPS with no fire damage racial. but unfortuantely this game was so poorly designed and the trinity so horribly implemented there are actually two role in ESO DPS that taunts and DPS that heals. that has nothing to do with not knowing how to tank. the majority of players will never touch top trial times, nor will they have that gear. and majority of the server has not even gone through COH or passed the last boss in shadda. I am guessing if you had a slkilled sorc willing to tank with proper gear he would do just as well as your DK .

The truth is a tank is not a tank in this game , the mechaincs are god damn lame and you know it. even more so in trials its all DPS with heals . there is no real group dynamics. no interupts stuns or silencing not real LOS mechanics its dodge some circles run in some damage reducer and burn boss faster then he can pull out his next big mechanic. As for thinking i did some thing with CC when you have to pug and your not some eltisist uber guy that have all trial gear sand slam people for not being able to do xyz dps then yes i suppose your geared group would do far better then my pug i pull together walk them through the fights and get the job done. While your busy destroying the community with Elitist attitudes i'm trying to help them. Still i concure your Trial geared DK would certainly do better then my sorc. you are the winner sir

A tank is not a tank, yet, he tanks 4/5 axes alone in AA's last boss (without loosing agro which is a rare thing) or 6 atronachs in Hard Mode and is not spamming banner at all

. Dk has just better natural skills for tanking than sorcerer and in a real tanking situation (aka in that hard COH or trials content that according to you most players have never done). Even more, the ridiculous op builds you used to see in PVP where a player would stand in the middle of 15 players without dying (and spamming talons) was done with a DK, there is a similar build (or at least end result) with templars, so even PVP whise, you are wrong.

And btw, while you teach "pugs" how to do low level dungeons with a sorcerer tank, I worked my way up to get a trial geared DK (the stuff didn't drop from the sky and I wasn't magically put in an elite team with elite IRL friends), I had to work for it hard. Moreover, I actually help any person willing to listen on how to stuff their DK and run trials with pugs from my non hardcore guild and sometimes with just randoms, teaching them how to do trials and how to stuff themselves to have high dps. And I did all that with my elistit mean p**ck attitude that ruins the game for everyone.

Just because you ended up being wrong is not a reason to be condescending or say people destroy the community when you actually know nothing about them.

And btw, the only logical choice for a DK, when you look at the fire dmg, is a dark elf.

Maverick827 · August 2014

Like I said, the benefits of being a Sorc tank are easily capping Spell Resist/Armor thanks to Thundering Presence and Bound Armor.

A Light Armor DK isn't capping both without Immovable/Circle, which isn't worth the loss of Stamina/Blocking. A heavy armor DK can probably cap both with Spell Resist jewelry enchants and Spiked Armor, but that's a loss of whatever stats would be on those rings.

DKs do, however, get a ton of great tanking abilities and passives:

- Standard
- Magma Armor
- Cinder Storm
- Battle Roar
- Iron Skin
- Burning Heart
- Scaled Armor
- GDB
- Talons (though Volcanic Rune is probably better after the 40 individual nerfs to Talons)

If I got a hypothetical free class change I'd probably go any other class than Sorc for tanking because I just don't think Zenimax will support them as tanks in any future updates. And if I got a race change I'd go Imperial or Redguard. The new soft caps make races with a lot of +Health%, +Magicka%, +Stamina Regen% etc. racials so much better.

Tamanous · August 2014

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

"Kill the mage first" came simply because they are ranged with slow but powerful spells. You have to kill them because they were GLASS CANNONS and melee could get in their grill and raise hell. You miss this point.

ESO is a game of tank mages. Kill the mage first does not apply as these builds are the most powerful, defensive and mobile builds in game. Melee cannot get in anyone's grill in this game and be effective because they run into a mage more tank-like than them that does superior damage. That is a game flaw as you suggest. Giving melee more damage is not the answer. Mage style abilities need to be more costly and have more drawbacks for using them. They cannot allow such mobile and tank-like builds using light armor and staff. The failure is not the melee. It is the mage ... they are too versatile and too powerful due to their core mechanics.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, (???) but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

*CURIOUS WHY balancing/raising stats/DPS would then make melee/warriors o-p to casters SINCE many posts in this thread keep hammering how TANKISH builds are needed only a smidge to none anyhow.

(*) IF we (all base classes) are supposed to be performing in that fantastical 'be everything you can be that you wanna be' mold...then strengthening melee types, giving them much higher STAM REGEN, and upping their DPS would be exactly what should be done to achieve that so they are just as 'needed' as the lucky magika flood builds. (*)

#2: "Be everything you can be/wanna be": I dare you to show me any official announcement from ZOS where they state that no matter how you play or what you decide to do, you'll always be able to do it with the same level of effectiveness. Nobody is stopping you from playing a heavy armor tank sorcerer, yet you will NEVER be as effective as the other classes, you'll still be able to tank though being everything you wanna be in the process. Nobody is stopping you from playing a caster in heavy armor, yet you will never be as effective damage-wise as a caster in light armor. Play as you want doesn't imply that no matter how you play you will succeed or be as good as the guys that play as they should. Thinking the oposite is just being unrealistic.

I have to stop you right here. I have both a DK in Heavy Armor V12 Yokeda 4 piece with hist bark and Yokeda weapon and shield,3 piece unassailable jewelry. Dk is supposed to be this high survivability high utility type class. Making it an obvious choice for a tank. He has 2800 armor when runnign spiked armor with that gear and 3400 hit points and is 8 over charged in spell resistance.

I also have a V12 sorc I have tanked with both extensively . In VR content i have all working dungeon achievments and have used both in trials.The sorc when tanking can either use a 5 piece martial knowledge Light with 5 piece warlock tanking running Aegis and storm armor. in that set up the sorc will have about 2400 armor and the spell resist will be through the roof like 1200 over soft cap. with about 3k hitpoints.
i also have a alessia and histbark set of heavy for the sorc. in that set up there the sorc has over 3k armor and 800 over soft cap spell resist.

By far the sorc destroys the Dk in performance for tanking and in my opinion it is the bet tank in game by far. Maybe a well played templar will do better as it will allow the healer to DPS more. The sorc handles trash far better then the DK while throing down 2k AOE DPS in heavy armor if i so chose to wear the worthless garbage.The sorc has roots and a massive CC that will recharge faster then any ultimate in game, it stops everything in trash pulls . As far as ST damage its not even close the sorc destroys the Dk in damage while tanking. Anyone who doubts i will bring to COH , shada or any VR dungeon of your choice and prove to you the simple fact. the DK GDB is useful for soling Talons is a buggy piece of crap that costs far to much to use.Reflective scales i can do the same thing with a SNS ability. the Dk brings nothing but some mediocre utility after all the nerfs . Banner is useful yes but only for a banner spammer spec it will produce some nice DPS.

This game does not function like you think it does. People dont use sorc as a tank because people who rolled a sorc didnt do it to tank. And if they tank with it and struggle i have no problem taking you along on some runs and showing you the ropes.

You clearly don't know how to tank as a DK then . In a group play in a hard PVE dungeon against hard bosses DK > sorc and that's all that matters anyways since anyone can clear trash without even having to tank, just spam 1 impulse and the rest elemental rings.

You may think you actually did something while CCing the trash and using AOE spells but that's not tanking anymore and it will never be as effective as a sorc that isn't tanking.

Tank Crypt of Heats or do trials with a sorc tank and do as much DPS as a DK tank (And the DK tank in my guild does 1K+ DPS on some bosses), then we'll talk.

That is gear dependent, and i bet he is using the banner spammer spec. the whole point of this converstaion is A tank is not a tank. Sure if i were a dunnmer DK in all Trial gear likely he is using aether and some fire damage gear i would pull as much DPS with my DK. but i rolled a logical choice for tank build Orc it will never pull that DPS with no fire damage racial. but unfortuantely this game was so poorly designed and the trinity so horribly implemented there are actually two role in ESO DPS that taunts and DPS that heals. that has nothing to do with not knowing how to tank. the majority of players will never touch top trial times, nor will they have that gear. and majority of the server has not even gone through COH or passed the last boss in shadda. I am guessing if you had a slkilled sorc willing to tank with proper gear he would do just as well as your DK .

The truth is a tank is not a tank in this game , the mechaincs are god damn lame and you know it. even more so in trials its all DPS with heals . there is no real group dynamics. no interupts stuns or silencing not real LOS mechanics its dodge some circles run in some damage reducer and burn boss faster then he can pull out his next big mechanic. As for thinking i did some thing with CC when you have to pug and your not some eltisist uber guy that have all trial gear sand slam people for not being able to do xyz dps then yes i suppose your geared group would do far better then my pug i pull together walk them through the fights and get the job done. While your busy destroying the community with Elitist attitudes i'm trying to help them. Still i concure your Trial geared DK would certainly do better then my sorc. you are the winner sir

A tank is not a tank, yet, he tanks 4/5 axes alone in AA's last boss (without loosing agro which is a rare thing) or 6 atronachs in Hard Mode and is not spamming banner at all . Dk has just better natural skills for tanking than sorcerer and in a real tanking situation (aka in that hard COH or trials content that according to you most players have never done). Even more, the ridiculous op builds you used to see in PVP where a player would stand in the middle of 15 players without dying (and spamming talons) was done with a DK, there is a similar build (or at least end result) with templars, so even PVP whise, you are wrong.

And btw, while you teach "pugs" how to do low level dungeons with a sorcerer tank, I worked my way up to get a trial geared DK (the stuff didn't drop from the sky and I wasn't magically put in an elite team with elite IRL friends), I had to work for it hard. Moreover, I actually help any person willing to listen on how to stuff their DK and run trials with pugs from my non hardcore guild and sometimes with just randoms, teaching them how to do trials and how to stuff themselves to have high dps. And I did all that with my elistit mean p**ck attitude that ruins the game for everyone.

Just because you ended up being wrong is not a reason to be condescending or say people destroy the community when you actually know nothing about them.

And btw, the only logical choice for a DK, when you look at the fire dmg, is a dark elf.

Lol both my chrs are vr 12 i do trials and coh vr with my sorc tank. Holding 6mobs is doable by any class that has a taunt. And the only survivability skills are negligable if you have good heals. And it obvious i got no clue wtf im doing . I got two chrs v12 with all working vr dungeon achieves as a tank as for trials no ive not cleared them. My guilds are not interested in the current zerg mechanics.i myself find them rather lame and the rewards lack luster compared to tradtional raiding. So ive run AA about 5times and hel ra once. No offence to the elite guilds that have cleared it does take skill. Ill clarify this ,my opionion is sorc is a better tank. This game is completely based of ranged dps . Its a horrible implementation of the trinity system. And again its not bash on your dk . Sounds extremely skilled you on the other hand sound very angry .

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

Like I said, the benefits of being a Sorc tank are easily capping Spell Resist/Armor thanks to Thundering Presence and Bound Armor.

A Light Armor DK isn't capping both without Immovable/Circle, which isn't worth the loss of Stamina/Blocking. A heavy armor DK can probably cap both with Spell Resist jewelry enchants and Spiked Armor, but that's a loss of whatever stats would be on those rings.

DKs do, however, get a ton of great tanking abilities and passives:

- Standard
- Magma Armor
- Cinder Storm
- Battle Roar
- Iron Skin
- Burning Heart
- Scaled Armor
- GDB
- Talons (though Volcanic Rune is probably better after the 40 individual nerfs to Talons)

If I got a hypothetical free class change I'd probably go any other class than Sorc for tanking because I just don't think Zenimax will support them as tanks in any future updates. And if I got a race change I'd go Imperial or Redguard. The new soft caps make races with a lot of +Health%, +Magicka%, +Stamina Regen% etc. racials so much better.

I sure hope your right mav. I personaly dont care for tanking with my sorc. my guild enjoys it though.

Magma armor and standard are awesome , Cinderstorm if used correctly is so awesome . it sucks a bit now they nerfed it to not allow multiple storms dropped .it was usefull to coat an area before a pull .

Passives are nice too in DK. but unfortunately all the survivability is lost on bad mechanics.It really only comes into play in PVP in my opinion. I use a resto staff over a slot for GDB unless im kitting. And Talons i agree its horrible since te 4 nerfs, well maybe not horrible just unproductive VS the magica it costs.

I would love for Dk to be top of the tank pile its what i wanted to play. In my opinion until they make a tank a tank in this game and make utility abilites even worth the slot compared to just relying on utility . ill take ranged magica DPS and easily capped Armor and spell resist. Over the utility and the situational abilites of the DK. But i will say this , nothing beats standard.

Persephonius · August 2014

Um, forgive me if I am wrong, but this thread is about the endgame demand for players playing as a purely tank role in trials, and ratio of Tanks/DPS/Healers in trials, as well as the PvE mechanics which seemingly require only one tank. The thread now seems to be a class discussion comparing the tanking ability of classes?

TehMagnus · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

Like I said, the benefits of being a Sorc tank are easily capping Spell Resist/Armor thanks to Thundering Presence and Bound Armor.

Go to pvp with 900 or 2K armor, you won't notice a difference. As for dungeons, Spiked Armor + L/A is enough to tank virtually anything.

As you said, DKs get a lot of great tanking abilities and passives (they got a whole skill line dedicated to it). It's extremely enjoyable to kill Hel Ra's First boss under the 30% phase without the tank kiting him all around the map instead of just standing there and poping ultimate to be unkillable. A sorc will never do that. In my opinion DKs make great tanks, NB and Templars make good tanks, sorcs are just on the bottom of the list.

I also agree with Imperial race being the safest choice atm for a new char.

Persephonius wrote: »

Um, forgive me if I am wrong, but this thread is about the endgame demand for players playing as a purely tank role in trials, and ratio of Tanks/DPS/Healers in trials, as well as the PvE mechanics which seemingly require only one tank. The thread now seems to be a class discussion comparing the tanking ability of classes?

Because there aint much more to say. ZOS won't change existing trials to make more tanks needed. We'll see in update 4 if the Serpent trial has mechanics that involve more than one tank and the fact that only few tanks are required in raids is a common issue to most MMOS.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Lol both my chrs are vr 12 i do trials and coh vr with my sorc tank. Holding 6mobs is doable by any class that has a taunt. And the only survivability skills are negligable if you have good heals. And it obvious i got no clue wtf im doing .

Still, to do the most dps on bosses while tanking in a real difficult/challenging tanking situation: DK tank

. Without even needing to spam banner.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I got two chrs v12 with all working vr dungeon achieves as a tank as for trials no ive not cleared them.

Ill clarify this ,my opionion is sorc is a better tank. This game is completely based of ranged dps .

Since trials last bosses (especially AA) and COH not dying/blade achievements are the only real tests for tanks in the game (since we both agree that the rest of the content is kind of a joke that doesn't require "real" tanking like in other games) I guess you haven't really been in real tanking situations?

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

You on the other hand sound very angry .

Yup, I'm the angry one, that's why you where whining about "elite *** attitudes ruining the game"

b*** please.

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

Sooooo... trials should be for casters only, but melee'ers are selfish for wanting to be able to be competent in end game content??

TehMagnus · August 2014

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

Sooooo... trials should be for casters only, but melee'ers are selfish for wanting to be able to be competent in end game content??

Did you even read what I said? Casters are the best option for speed runs because of the damage over time where they are superior to melee'ers. If you have a group with casters AND stamina users you can complete runs as long as everybody knows what they are doing and the stamina users do good dps.

The problem is that 90% of stamina users don't do good dps currently because very small research has been done on the subject and because it is hard for them to get access to trials. It was the same at the beginning for casters, 99% of them didn't do 1,5K dps since the beginning, people searched & tried combos and eventually more and more people converted and managed to get a decent dps output. I know there are some stamina users out there who actually do trials and finish them and I know a small fraction of them are trying to adapt to maximise dps on their builds, sadly it's a very tiny fraction.

As for selfishness I agree it may have been harsh words for the majority of the players that just see it like this: "I can't complete trials cuz I got a stamina build so it means that the stamina builds are not as op as casters and should be buffed" I guess it's a logical interpretation. Problem is: things are not that simple, if they where, ZOS would have buffed stamina users damage output allready.

That being said, If you know that a buff on stamina would unbalance the class in the other aspects of the game compared to casters but you still ask for one just because you want to participate in trials, then yes, you are being selfish, because if you get it your way, you will have players 2 weeks later complaining about how casters are useless in PVP and that stamina builds own everything and probably even have comments like "Soooo PVP should be for stamina users only, but casters are selfish for wanting to be competent in PVP??"

The issue is not in the balance of stamina/magicka users, it's in the bosses resistance to damage and the DPS runs. As I've stated many times before, allowing bleeding/poison effects on bosses would allow the stamina users to increase their dps output without breaking the balance between the casters/melee'ers.

Regarding the DPS runs and the way trials are done, I believe ZOS is experimenting other kinds of challenges. If you look at Hard Mode content, especially Hel Ra hard mode, it is much more about tactics and movement than just standing there and bursting a boss. Granted, there is still a DPS run after the 30% phase and you still need to dps the boss fast enough to avoid his army to spawn, but I believe we will see more and more content that requires exact perfect group communication/interaction/movement and that will involve less standing and doing damage.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Like I said, the benefits of being a Sorc tank are easily capping Spell Resist/Armor thanks to Thundering Presence and Bound Armor.

Go to pvp with 900 or 2K armor, you won't notice a difference. As for dungeons, Spiked Armor + L/A is enough to tank virtually anything.

As you said, DKs get a lot of great tanking abilities and passives (they got a whole skill line dedicated to it). It's extremely enjoyable to kill Hel Ra's First boss under the 30% phase without the tank kiting him all around the map instead of just standing there and poping ultimate to be unkillable. A sorc will never do that. In my opinion DKs make great tanks, NB and Templars make good tanks, sorcs are just on the bottom of the list.

I also agree with Imperial race being the safest choice atm for a new char.

Persephonius wrote: »

Um, forgive me if I am wrong, but this thread is about the endgame demand for players playing as a purely tank role in trials, and ratio of Tanks/DPS/Healers in trials, as well as the PvE mechanics which seemingly require only one tank. The thread now seems to be a class discussion comparing the tanking ability of classes?

Because there aint much more to say. ZOS won't change existing trials to make more tanks needed. We'll see in update 4 if the Serpent trial has mechanics that involve more than one tank and the fact that only few tanks are required in raids is a common issue to most MMOS.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Lol both my chrs are vr 12 i do trials and coh vr with my sorc tank. Holding 6mobs is doable by any class that has a taunt. And the only survivability skills are negligable if you have good heals. And it obvious i got no clue wtf im doing .

Still, to do the most dps on bosses while tanking in a real difficult/challenging tanking situation: DK tank . Without even needing to spam banner.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I got two chrs v12 with all working vr dungeon achieves as a tank as for trials no ive not cleared them.

Ill clarify this ,my opionion is sorc is a better tank. This game is completely based of ranged dps .

Since trials last bosses (especially AA) and COH not dying/blade achievements are the only real tests for tanks in the game (since we both agree that the rest of the content is kind of a joke that doesn't require "real" tanking like in other games) I guess you haven't really been in real tanking situations?

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

You on the other hand sound very angry .

Yup, I'm the angry one, that's why you where whining about "elite *** attitudes ruining the game" b*** please.

Magnuset i would agree with you if survivablility even remotely meant anything in this game. but it does not nor does utility. I dont hate DK I have both , now i say this not clearing the specfic Trial mob as a sorc tank . but i will say this in all the content i have tanked , I have never needed any of the survivability skills of the DK at all. not in shada,COH any of the Vr 10 dungeons or 4 bosses in AA or the first two in HR.

And by far the sorc whether i am tanking in light armor or heavy Has superior DPS comapred to my DK. Now i admit not having done the last bosses in the trial the Dk may shine and the Survivablity needed . But if ZOS is balancing this game around three a few end game bosses and solo PVP it show how they truly have no control of their end game and it is still clearly alpha, you can't even claim beta for that design.

The only time ive seen my DK shine is in PVP . Believe me i Truly truly want my DK to have value. I spec'd the thing to be a traditional meat shield . Orc, 3400 HP, 2900 armor as best Spell resist i can muster. For all the tanking ive done the only thing at end analysis that remotely matters is DPS may be a little CC for some sloppy situations. Agro management is is absloutely ridiculously easy in this game , so holding 6 adds and tanking a boss is quite easy . I had the Ryillis achieve at VR 2 with my sorc holding 5 daedra alive while killing the boss. the only thing that even is remotly challenging is the sloppy target system where you have to make sure nothing is blocking depth field.

Its quite possible i just got really good healers so don't notice the difference in healing. but from all the ones i've talked to healing is easy as all hell in this game compared to other MMO's.

As for DPS if all the trials dk's are pout DPSing the sorcs and you are stacking all DK's and they are pulling 1.3 k in heavy armor with animation canceling it just shows how *** broken this game is. But i don't think thats the case i am sure your using Sorcs and NB casters as your primary DPS. Dpsing as a sorc tank is quite easy and you can do it from range if need be whether your exploiting the PVP barrier to ignore mechanics then that DK will still produce the DPS.

But it your just a casual PVE guild following the mechanics the sorc is gonna be DPsing from anywhere on the field. The nerfs on the DK utility was the wrong thing for Zeni max to do what they should have done is nerfed the DK DPs so its not doing the DPS your DK is doing.

this game does not have a shot in its current condition its so imbalanced and broken 5 months after launch im suprised it retained the 40 % in sales it has as a player base. Which i am sure is quite a bit less now as we speak. As for most MMO's not needing more then one tank this is true . Except in the case of a game like AOC , many end game Raids require 3 to 4 tanks and quite alot of agro swapping and a very combined effort of managing Agro. As for nto being in any real tanking situations, well i find this game a yawn fest as far as tanking.

By far the hardest games to tank in that i have played IS EQ2 pre 2008, AOC ( i have not played in quite awhile but when i did there was alot of challenge for tanks so much so you would get carpal tunnel in raids.) I tanked everything in game in EQ 2 through the kunark expan. including that nigh mare Nizara dungeon at lvl not after lvl cap increase. so ive had my Tanking sills chalenged. sorry if i offended or came of Assholish. But i detected that eleitist attitude which may have been un justly directed at you.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Delete

lathbury · August 2014

The last boss in aa is a tanking challenge and you will be doing 0 dps for most of the fight as a tank.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

lathbury wrote: »

The last boss in aa is a tanking challenge and you will be doing 0 dps for most of the fight as a tank.

Doable with sorc?