When it comes to how all the various game systems in a MMO are designed, someone who has been playing MMOs for a long time and seen several different methods of how game systems were designed has a much broader perspective compared to a first time MMOer.

Many people get stuck in the "idea" of mechanics in their first favorite MMORPG. Therefor the players who didnt play other mmorpgs might have a more open perpective.

I usually read it to mean "... and I want it to behave identically to WoW/SWTOR/GW2/my favourite MMO ..."

MorHawk wrote: »

...so that means my opinion must be valid.

Seriously, can we all agree to quit trying to use this lame attempt at validation? Just present your opinion. We'll decide for ourselves if it's cogent or not, thanks.

Good idea.

The statement has never been valid as far as I'm concerned because you don't know the quality of that play time.

Who's the better judge of an MMO, the person who played 5 MMOs all the way to end game and beyond or the game hopper who played a hundred MMOs for 3 days each?

"Lots of MMOs" usually means the latter and those people can be safely ignored.

MorHawk wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

When it comes to how all the various game systems in a MMO are designed, someone who has been playing MMOs for a long time and seen several different methods of how game systems were designed has a much broader perspective compared to a first time MMOer.

Thanks for being a classic example of what I'm saying. Look up "appeal to authority". Instead of someone just telling us about their vast experience, it would be far better to present the substance of it (e.g: in game X we did Y and it worked because Z). It's like a reverse ad hominem.

Let me guess college student who just took a class that covered logical fallacies? Just because "appeal to authority" doesn't guarantee the conclusion it also doesn't in any way exclude the conclusion.

I haven't played alot of MMO's....does that make bugs and crashes less real? I have played a lot of video games however...so I know when things seem odd in a $80+15+15+15+15 (and counting) game.

Sallington wrote: »

I find that most people who haven't played many (or any) MMOs had very unrealistic expectations for ESO. These are the same people that were most actively involved in the "ESO sucks" campaign at launch that accounted for a lot of bad press.

This may have been true pre-launch and around release, but I don't think it is anymore. People who wanted Skyrim Online and would be satisfied by nothing else moved on long ago. And anyhow, there have been unrealistic expectations on both sides. I've seen a lot of people asking for features X, Y and Z in ESO for no other reason than because another MMO had them. Which is fine if they can explain how these features would enhance ESO and fit into its design, but often they don't.

When I saw the title, I thought to myself "oh boy, here we go. This should be interesting."

Mudfin wrote: »

I think people are missing the point.

Your resume is actually pretentious. Just write coherently, concisely and with knowledge. The people you want to discuss your point with don't need a resume to verify your knowledge, they'll know.

Don't wast our time with your credentials.

Posts like these make my inability to add more than one tag quite frustrating. Well said sir.

In order to make a point it's a good idea to support your idea with something concrete. So if I can bring up an idea and mention that it worked in <insert MMO here>, I don't that's a bad thing. Plus it brings up a frame of reference other people who many have played <insert MMO here> can relate to.

However, if you feel that's pretentious there's nothing the poster can do about that. That's your opinion.

Frankly I don't care whether someone has played a lot of MMOs and has hopefully gained some perspective from it, or just feels entitled from doing so.

It's those armchair designers, who've never written a single line of code in their lives, without even the slightest clue what designing, programming, and debugging for a code base with multiple millions of lines of code entails, but who propose or demand features to be implemented/fixed on the double, or else they pull their subscription now, who drive me up the wall.

For the live of me, I can't take those seriously. But telling them so doesn't help or change matters, so what? :P

Elad13 wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Elad13 wrote: »

I haven't played alot of MMO's....does that make bugs and crashes less real? I have played a lot of video games however...so I know when things seem odd in a $80+15+15+15+15 (and counting) game.

Good example! This shows perfectly how an MMO vet would recognize that in fact it is not odd at all and quite normal for the genre.

This is a good example of why the video game industry is about the only industry that rewards laziness and broken features...I have never understood why so many people defend bugs and poor design...I feel we has consumers only support the trend of "we might fix it later" or the view "we have been aware of the issue for months but we are working to fix that at some point in the future"

If eso was an album it would have 1 hit song and then about 3 others that were off beat...out of sync...and bad reverb....With the promise that sometime in the future you can pay to download the "remix"...

If it was a movie it would be released with only 1/2 the special effects but then promised to be re released at a later date with new updated effects.

By defending and calling poor design, rushed concepts, poorly tested, and broken features acceptable, we has a community have lowered the bar and raised the cost of future disappointments and sub par qualities.

Personally I think people don't give ESO nearly enough credit. There is a lot of really good stuff. There are bugs, there are issues and you could argue that the design is poor but that is just a personal opinion.

My opinion is that the game is well worth the sub fee but if you disagree vote with your dollars and go to a game that seems designed well, concepts that are not rushed, has been properly tested and doesn't have broken features.

I think it is misguided to say this game was developed lazily or imply that you are getting ripped off, it is your choice to be here and this is an extraordinarily complex system.

If I was going to use your music analogy I would say ESO is an original artist that wrote a song, plays their own instruments and recorded it themselves, it is to some people's taste and not to others. It isn't Beethoven or Bach but it is good music and they are working on fine tuning their skills with their instruments. I you prefer a pre-written song that was sold to an "artist" that sings through autotune on top of a drum machine you are free to listen to that also.

Point The First: Having invested time in many MMOs, as opposed to playing them all for a few weeks, gives one a more in depth perspective on several areas, progression, mechanics, design, etc.

Point The Second: Saying that you have 'unique' insight because of your time investment is rather silly, since there are any number of people who have thought and do think the same thing and, if you go look, have probably stated so in these forums.

Point The Third: As @Aett_Thorn‌ stated...

Bad - "I used to play UO and then WoW, and they both had feature X, so this game should have feature X even though it doesn't make any sense here."

Good - "I used to play UO and WoW, and they both had feature X. Now, I know that a direct port of that feature to this game wouldn't work, but here is a way that I think we could put something similar into this game."


Bad - "I've played several other MMOs, and this is the worst of them all for [no reasons given]."

Good - "I've played several other MMOs, and ESO could be as good as them if they did X, and X isn't a problem to put into this game."

Using your experience to compare and contrast is beneficial. Using it to bash this game for not being a clone of another game you may or may not have invested time in is rather silly.

Point The Fourth: When it comes to discussions about game mechanics, progression, crafting, et cetera, I prefer to deal with someone of vast and varied experience. Stating that experience is not necessarily bad. Using it as a cudgel to bash anyone who disagrees, is.

Point The Fifth: I like coffee.