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Intimidate/Persuade really hurts Veteran Points
DenverRalphy
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[EDIT] Seems I jumped the gun a bit. I did it again on another quest, intentonally used persuade for some assistance. Got the same results. But then exited the game, logged back in, and found the points sync'd up properly. So while the negative number doesn't correlate to an actual subtraction, I'm curious as to what it actually does represent.
Since I always seem to fall way short of VP's after completing each zone, I decided to focus a bit more on what may be causing it to happen. I'd occasionally notice negative Veteran Points upon completing quests. Some people attributed the negative points as just being an addon display error, but I've found that to not be the case.
I decided to take note of my current VP's just before turning in a quest, monitor how many VP's are reported by the addon, and compare the results to my total VP's after quest completion. And this is what I've found...
The only time I would see negative points is when completing a quest in which I used Persuade or Intimidate to receive assistance (sometimes in the form of a follower, sometimes an item that CC's the enemy, etc..). After tallying the points, I found that the negative points are indeed accurately reported by the addon.
As you can see in the screenshot... I receive 53,205 points for completing the quest. But then I'm penalized 45,605 points for having used Persuade/Intimidate to assist the quest. Resulting in a whole whopping 7,600 points for the quest.
Now I understand that perhaps there should be some kind of penalty for requesting/accepting assistance. But an 85% penalty seems a bit extreme. I can think of any number of different methods to provide a penalty, but the one method I tend to think would be most logical, would be to remove/reduce the points received for killing mobs affected by whatever assistance you requested along with a minor (10% perhaps) reduced quest reward.
An 85% penalty though... yowza.
Edited by DenverRalphy on August 9, 2014 3:09PM Since I always seem to fall way short of VP's after completing each zone, I decided to focus a bit more on what may be causing it to happen. I'd occasionally notice negative Veteran Points upon completing quests. Some people attributed the negative points as just being an addon display error, but I've found that to not be the case.
I decided to take note of my current VP's just before turning in a quest, monitor how many VP's are reported by the addon, and compare the results to my total VP's after quest completion. And this is what I've found...
The only time I would see negative points is when completing a quest in which I used Persuade or Intimidate to receive assistance (sometimes in the form of a follower, sometimes an item that CC's the enemy, etc..). After tallying the points, I found that the negative points are indeed accurately reported by the addon.
As you can see in the screenshot... I receive 53,205 points for completing the quest. But then I'm penalized 45,605 points for having used Persuade/Intimidate to assist the quest. Resulting in a whole whopping 7,600 points for the quest.
Now I understand that perhaps there should be some kind of penalty for requesting/accepting assistance. But an 85% penalty seems a bit extreme. I can think of any number of different methods to provide a penalty, but the one method I tend to think would be most logical, would be to remove/reduce the points received for killing mobs affected by whatever assistance you requested along with a minor (10% perhaps) reduced quest reward.
An 85% penalty though... yowza.
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AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭85% is far too extreme.
In fact I would say any penalty is wrong, it's a skill which you have invested points into, why should they be penalising you for having those abilities. It's like penalising you for hitting enemies with an ability, instead of just whacking them with a weapon. Just wrong IMHO.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
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NukeAllTheThings✭✭✭✭✭Wow, I just noticed the same thing last night and didnt think it was actually deducting points. Good to know."it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days." - Matt Firor0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I get that + and - value showing up as well and I don't even have persuade or intimidate. Are you positive it is subtracting the one value? I just assumed it was an add-on error.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points1 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
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I did compare my total points. Though in hindsight I probably should have taken screenshots of the before and after so that I could post them.I get that + and - value showing up as well and I don't even have persuade or intimidate. Are you positive it is subtracting the one value? I just assumed it was an add-on error.
From what I found, it only occurs when I used Persuade or Intimidate. Though there is one anomaly that I haven't had the opportunity to test yet, which are quests that have consequences attached to decisions (red dialog).
Edited by DenverRalphy on August 9, 2014 2:23PM0 -
Csub✭✭✭✭✭I don't think that is the case. I mean I would be surprised. Okay, you kill less if you intimidate/persuade so that's less XP/VP but the quest should not give less itself. Isn't the addon bugged? I use Slightly Improved Experience Bar and Wykkyd's framework and they both always display the same which is, in Grahtwowood, a VR 7 zone, either around 15k, 65k or 95k depending on the length of the quest.
It is never any different and it always "scales" with the length of the quest and both addons show the same value.
Also, when I turn in a quest that levels me up, my Slightly Improved XP bar is bugged and shows a bunch of negative XP as well.Edited by Csub on August 9, 2014 2:31PM"The Divines gave you a nose for a reason, Tharn. So you can keep your mouth shut and still keep breathing. - Lyris Titanborn0 -
Artemiisia✭✭✭✭✭
✭they probably deducting the amount you would had gotten from completing the quest for real1 -
TheAmu✭✭✭I really hope this is wrong. I only use Intimidate or Persuade when I think it's something my character would say. Otherwise I just do the whole quest.
Be nice to get some official word on this though.2 -
ThisOnePosts✭✭✭✭✭I've actually removed them in a respec. I used them here and there when I liked the dialogue/felt it was warranted in the situation at hand but that's it. Now having completed all quests in the game, I got my 2 points back tyvm.
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Elvinfire✭✭Wow, I feel like such a LOSER. I've been using intimidate every time the option was available, just because I'd learned it. Thanks for that.0 -
Inversus✭✭✭✭✭I got the negative points from VR1->5 before actually investing in persuade/intimidate
(I decided to finally get it because I'm OCD about the options in quests and realised I didn't want the 2nd option, but needed intimidate for the 1st option...if you see what I mean)
And then I've used it from VR5+ and still got the negative points
But then again I got the right amount of points from the 1st 5 zones and not enough from the second 5 (done 3/5 zones of cadwell's gold so far) so perhaps you're right, who knows.....VR14 EH Sorc
VR1 AD NB Crafter0 -
traigusb14_ESO2✭✭✭✭✭Using the skills lets you skip one (or even 2 sometimes) subquests before you get the final reward... sometimes using the skill basically skips you doing any real quest (you go right to turn-in just from talking to quest giver).
I would hope the penalty varies by what/ how much / activity you are skipping... say 30% for skipping talking to the guy in next house, but 85% for skipping picking up 7 bags in an enemy area might be fair.0 -
xChewtoyx✭✭✭traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »Using the skills lets you skip one (or even 2 sometimes) subquests before you get the final reward... sometimes using the skill basically skips you doing any real quest (you go right to turn-in just from talking to quest giver).
I would hope the penalty varies by what/ how much / activity you are skipping... say 30% for skipping talking to the guy in next house, but 85% for skipping picking up 7 bags in an enemy area might be fair.
Oh hell no.
The only exp you should miss out on is whatever kill exp you pass up. The whole idea of spending the points to save a little time would be defeated by that
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traigusb14_ESO2✭✭✭✭✭traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »Using the skills lets you skip one (or even 2 sometimes) subquests before you get the final reward... sometimes using the skill basically skips you doing any real quest (you go right to turn-in just from talking to quest giver).
I would hope the penalty varies by what/ how much / activity you are skipping... say 30% for skipping talking to the guy in next house, but 85% for skipping picking up 7 bags in an enemy area might be fair.
Oh hell no.
The only exp you should miss out on is whatever kill exp you pass up. The whole idea of spending the points to save a little time would be defeated by that
Actually, no... the idea of spending points to save time is not defeated... because you still save the time... by not doing things (the definition of experience).
I'm not fighting for it one way or another. I am just explaining why I think it is the way it is (and hoped it scaled well).
2 (1 each) points are not really expensive when there is currently 300+ skill points available.
This is the first time I have ever see anyone mention it, so nobody even noticed before... doesn't seem like a whole lot of suffering was caused.1 -
KariTR✭✭✭✭✭Faulty addon I reckon. I have always been on par once I have cleared bosses, dungeons and dolmens (once).
ETA On a couple of maps, even overpar.Edited by KariTR on August 9, 2014 8:10PM1 -
xChewtoyx✭✭✭traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »Using the skills lets you skip one (or even 2 sometimes) subquests before you get the final reward... sometimes using the skill basically skips you doing any real quest (you go right to turn-in just from talking to quest giver).
I would hope the penalty varies by what/ how much / activity you are skipping... say 30% for skipping talking to the guy in next house, but 85% for skipping picking up 7 bags in an enemy area might be fair.
Oh hell no.
The only exp you should miss out on is whatever kill exp you pass up. The whole idea of spending the points to save a little time would be defeated by that
Actually, no... the idea of spending points to save time is not defeated... because you still save the time... by not doing things (the definition of experience).
I'm not fighting for it one way or another. I am just explaining why I think it is the way it is (and hoped it scaled well).
2 (1 each) points are not really expensive when there is currently 300+ skill points available.
This is the first time I have ever see anyone mention it, so nobody even noticed before... doesn't seem like a whole lot of suffering was caused.
Wrong.
You won't save time because you will have to get the exp you missed out on some other way so it would be pointless having it the way you suggest0 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Faulty addon I reckon. I have always been on par once I have cleared bosses, dungeons and dolmens (once).
ETA On a couple of maps, even overpar.
Something is going on with VP's. I'll clear all quests, all delves, dungeons, world bosses, etc... Even comb every square inch of the map looking for those random quests, and still fall short (by a large margin) by several hundred VP points.1 -
xChewtoyx✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »Faulty addon I reckon. I have always been on par once I have cleared bosses, dungeons and dolmens (once).
ETA On a couple of maps, even overpar.
Something is going on with VP's. I'll clear all quests, all delves, dungeons, world bosses, etc... Even comb every square inch of the map looking for those random quests, and still fall short (by a large margin) by several hundred VP points.
I always use intimidate/persuade, clear everything and have always been the correct level for the zone1 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »Faulty addon I reckon. I have always been on par once I have cleared bosses, dungeons and dolmens (once).
ETA On a couple of maps, even overpar.
Something is going on with VP's. I'll clear all quests, all delves, dungeons, world bosses, etc... Even comb every square inch of the map looking for those random quests, and still fall short (by a large margin) by several hundred VP points.
I always use intimidate/persuade, clear everything and have always been the correct level for the zone
I don't doubt that some people experience the same as you. But there are many who don't. Dolmen/WB groups in VR zones are becoming all too common lately because many are feeling the pain. It's not a matter of overlooking or missing content (some of us have too much experience with ESO for that to be a factor).
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xChewtoyx✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »Faulty addon I reckon. I have always been on par once I have cleared bosses, dungeons and dolmens (once).
ETA On a couple of maps, even overpar.
Something is going on with VP's. I'll clear all quests, all delves, dungeons, world bosses, etc... Even comb every square inch of the map looking for those random quests, and still fall short (by a large margin) by several hundred VP points.
I always use intimidate/persuade, clear everything and have always been the correct level for the zone
I don't doubt that some people experience the same as you. But there are many who don't. Dolmen/WB groups in VR zones are becoming all too common lately because many are feeling the pain. It's not a matter of overlooking or missing content (some of us have too much experience with ESO for that to be a factor).
I just saw your edited OP so I am happy it wasn't happening that way. I have joined WB and dolmen groups myself (to clear them one time).
If you say something is missing in your exp gain I will take your word for it but as long as I have been playing I've never had an issue with it.
I just chimed in to refute the idea that using intimidate/persuade should reduce your quest exp gain.0 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭I always clear everything in every zone and wind up short, too. I thought it was because I sneak past mobs when I can but we are talking 10 to 15 percent in mid vet ranks. Seems way off. Before in pre50 content I was usually slightly overlevelled.0 -
Gillysan✭✭✭✭Nice research work! 85% is crazy, after all, we did use a SP for these skills in the first place.Crafting Services http://tinyurl.com/GillysansStore Organizational Guide http://tinyurl.com/GillysansEnchanterLeveling
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reggielee✭✭✭✭this is the first time I heard of a penalty for using persuade or intimidate. I knew that it allowed faster completion of the quest, to avoid some to-ing and fro-ing but no where does it mention less reward for using the skills, which one has to spend ability points on like its a bonus skill.
if this is proven true then more clear cut tool tips are needed to avoid thisMama always said the fastest way to a man's heart is through his chest.0 -
IceDread✭✭✭I got a reply from some zos staff about this telling me it's addon bug. There are no quests that gives 65k xp as the addon wrote for me then deducting ~5xk xp. The quests gives much less xp.
However, I wonder if we are missing out on a few %, not 85%.
Also, if the addons were right I should not be vr6 in the vr6 zone, I'd struggle a lot with xp but I dont.0