I seriously don't understand why people want to divide builds into magicka/stamina.

lathbury · August 2014

Hybrid build will always be inherently weaker than a pure magika build.
You say if you have attributes in stamina you will be able to mitigate more damage you may be able to block one extra attack so technically yes but being able to cc throw up a damage shield or heal will always lend you more survivability.
What you are actually doing is gimping your magicka for no return the only reason to invest points in stamina would be to use the associated weapon skills. Which as already stated pale in comparison to the magika ones. Combine this with the fact that by spreading your points across all or two pools you have lowered the Damage etc of all of them because the damage scales from pool size and either wpn or spell damage.
Then factor in the awesome light armour passives and maybe now you understand the argument.
Pure magicka build is more powerful than hybrid and full stamina builds in the current meta.

Delte · August 2014

I started off playing the game with a Nightblade and split magicka, stamina and health up into a 2/4/2 systems.

This gives me enough health to survive most encounters and resources to play with for my abilities. My ability bar is mixed up as well with stamina and magicka using abilities so when one runs out I can switch to the other as I wait for it to recharge.

But OP you are trying to preach to elitists who think they know better than you, which will never work or end well.

I know my build works well in pvp and pve as I have seen the so called group tanks get squished faster than me in dungeons and I am wearing medium armour, and for pvp I have facerolled veteran rank 10 players at level 45.

khele23eb17_ESO · August 2014

Delte wrote: »

I started off playing the game with a Nightblade and split magicka, stamina and health up into a 2/4/2 systems.

This gives me enough health to survive most encounters and resources to play with for my abilities. My ability bar is mixed up as well with stamina and magicka using abilities so when one runs out I can switch to the other as I wait for it to recharge.

But OP you are trying to preach to elitists who think they know better than you, which will never work or end well.

I know my build works well in pvp and pve as I have seen the so called group tanks get squished faster than me in dungeons and I am wearing medium armour, and for pvp I have facerolled veteran rank 10 players at level 45.

It has nothing to do with elitism. So your build works well in PvE, thats nice. The problem is staff/robe works awesomely in PvE. So its 'decent' vs 'f... awesome'. Id say that leaves room for improvement as far as balace is concerned.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The issue isn't so much that magicka/stamina isn't viable (well, it's not the issue for those of us who have actually figured out how the game works). The problem is that purely magicka-based builds are just as viable, and they can hold on to stamina for blocking/dodging, while builds with stamina have to sacrifice combat ability uptime for that.

I don't think that stamina abilities need to be tuned up; I'd much rather see destruction staff abilities tuned down.

Did you read the OP?

NewBlacksmurf · August 2014

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

rekina wrote: »

People keep saying Stamina build is weaker, stamina has too many uses, make third resource for dodging, blocking and etc...

You guys don't even understand the basic principle of the game mechanics. You think there are 2 kinds of builds, which are magicka and stamina builds? You are thinking it wrong.

Every single class abilities in ESO use magicka as its resource. There is no exception to this. Class abilities usually offer advantageous effects for you. They deal damage, incapacitate enemies, reflect harmful skills, and heals back your hp. Magicka lets you to take the upper hand in the situation. We need to secure at least some amount of magicka as one of our main resources.

On the other hand, you need stamina for every survival/sustain/special related abilities; dodge rolling, blocking, CC breaking, interrupting, sprinting and sneaking. Now, stamina is very lacking in pvp as we need stamina for every single situation on the above. CC breaking is one of the core ability to survive longer and turn the fight around. You need interruption sometimes, not as often as pve but still it is useful in few situations. Sneaking is one of the main survivability-related ability that costs stamina. Blocking and dodge rolling are both survival/sustain related abilities, and also are very important in pvp situations. Not to mention that you need them for weapon abilities. Stamina mostly lets you to get out of the unfavorable situations, and gives you the opportunity to turn the situation around. This is what stamina does. Because of this, you also need to secure some amount of stamina as one of your main resources.

There is neither "magicka build", nor "stamina build" in this game. You need both of them anyways. Are you never going to try to take advantage over enemies when you are so called "stamina build"? Aren't you going to try to turn the unfavorable situation around when you are so called "magicka build"?

You dont seem to understand what people's problem is with the current system. People want to be able to make use of weapons other than Staves for dealing damage and wear armor other than robes for protection. They want to play archers, they want to play dual-wielding rogues, they want to play heavy armored warriors with huge 2 handers. Its not about 'I want to have stamina skills on my action bar exclusively', its about 'I want to actually use the weapons and armor corresponding to my favorite playstyle and be as effective as the staff/robe guy'.

This is why you don't get to have 4000 magicka or 4000 stamina. You are just not allowed to do so. Also, this is why the damage improvement by investing either magicka or stamina on correlated abilities is relatively not significant. Because they did not design the resource system in that way. ZoS did not want you to choose either magicka or stamina as your resource. They wanted you to use both and distribute them wisely.

Sure, thats why theyre raising caps to 2700 in the next patch, thats why there are 5-piece armor sets focused either on stamina/weapon dmg or magicka/spell dmg. Thats why there is a separate armor skill line for stamina focused builds and a separate line for magicka focused builds (and a line noone knows the purpose of).

The argument "give us the third resource" is completely inconsiderate suggestion. Guild Wars 2 had this special resource because GW2 doesn't require any resource to use skills. They have cool downs instead. We don't have cool downs, and we have 2 resources for abilities. Use them in a way they were designed. You don't need the third resource.

GW2 has cooldowns, GW2 has a resource for dodging so obviously ESO cant have a resource for dodging because it doesnt have cooldowns. Lets see... cars have wheels, cars run on gas so obviously motorboats cant run on gas because they dont have wheels. Yes, I see your logic.

In short...you brought the wrong game.

frwinters_ESO · August 2014

I think the real problem has to do with the armor. Light is preferred over any other armor type which in tune links it to magicka and that makes your magicka based attacks stronger so you do more DPS.

If you like to have more Weapon abilities, you can do the same with Medium armor, get a buff to regen and such and do more damage with stamina based attacks.

Heavy armor becomes kind of worthless, less your a true PvE tank who needs the HP and the healing buff. For PvP it becomes kind of worthless.

The whole secondary bar for CC and Blocking breaks the lore. That's why i think they do not have an additional resource. If they want to balance Stamina and Magicka abilities, they have to reduce the cost of weapon abilities, increase some of the damage output to make it more lucrative and change the caps on each armor type.

Like light armor may only cap to 600, or medium to 800 etc etc. Even if you mix and match your armor types, the math could still work changing your armor cap depending on your makeup. Then those who want to run all light armor and do max DPS will have the disadvantage of being rather squishy in combat. Medium armor people will have the bonus of increased DPS with weapon abilities, get some mediocre protection in sacrifice of magicka DPS but may survive longer. Heavy armor wearers become the true tanks. With a healer on thwere back, or hell self healing themselves, they can be sustainable beasts with a balance between magicka and stamina abilities.

Rylana · August 2014

Because people are stupid, OP.

Going all - in to something in a game that has softcap diminishing returns is absolutely silly and I have been preaching it since the Beta.

You will always get more mileage by utilizing all stats instead of only speccing for one.

Especially if that one is a regen stat.

Most people just read what someone said and assume the person that said it must be the paragon of knowledge regarding the issue. Most times it becomes the blind leading the blind.

moxiesauce · August 2014

SFBryan18 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The issue isn't so much that magicka/stamina isn't viable (well, it's not the issue for those of us who have actually figured out how the game works). The problem is that purely magicka-based builds are just as viable, and they can hold on to stamina for blocking/dodging, while builds with stamina have to sacrifice combat ability uptime for that.

I don't think that stamina abilities need to be tuned up; I'd much rather see destruction staff abilities tuned down.

Which destruction staff abilities are too strong? Can people please be specific? Not all abilities for a weapon do the same thing. You don't see us using the bow poison arrow as the one ability which speaks for the entire skill line, so if some think impulse is too strong, they should just say that. Saying an entire weapon and it's abilities are too strong is asking for everything in that line to get nerfed. If that's the attitude people want to have, then I think they don't deserve any buffs. The developers already said stamina is getting buffs in update 3. People need to wait and see what happens before trying to destroy everything else that works.

Fire ring alone does more dmg spamming, then standard+cleave+flames of oblivion. You can even hold block while spamming it and take minimal damage, ignore CC, and not worry your main resource is draining. Either buff 2hdr/DW or nerf Dstaff. Either one works for me, if it was nerfed the game would be much more challenging.

Soloeus · August 2014

1. Dark Conversion.
2. Immovable.
3. Silver Shards.

There, I am a 4/1 ratio character. I am almost always using at least one Stamina ability.

This problem is also part of why people don't group. When you group with someone who has a trash build its uncomfortable. Half the time they scream and go bonkers if you try to help them make their character better. The other half they just say "Okay" and continue getting the party wiped.

OP:

These people feel a need to create a Wall of Separation so they can create a False Dichotomy of "Magicka/Stamina" Build to argue for constant nerfing.

Anastasia · August 2014

Liquid_Time wrote: »

I am sure it was intended to be that way, but you can see the current outcome of that decision...

Definitely insightful and well-explained post rekina.

But please...don't waste your breath or fingers typing, explaining/justifying/showing facts about what TESO devs' original design/emphasis/creative framework for the mechanics were.

Every time I have pointed out what 'was' the ZOS grouping-centric design in Vet+ 1-10 content and the lack-of consequences on endgame as was advertised, promo'd and dev's interviewed about for a couple YEARS before live servers launched...

Heh, its as if I were speaking Venusian or Martian. No relativity among those who have an agenda and intend on pursuing it without having any understanding of debate or logic.

Here, its as if a lot of players are treating this MMO as a item-by-item lunchline. Instead of researching reasons to buy and sub to this MMO, and then playing the content, while making a few suggestions here and there...its:

"I'll have some of 'that', 'this' is ok too...ugh! Get that third tray with the scampi outta here! Nasty stuff...I would rather have more venison. And while you're at it, be quick about it AND when you come back, put a serving on my plate. You don't think I think I'm supposed to actually use my own hands to do it do you? Ridiculous! Thats too much effort (thinking strategically or HAVING to socialize inside of groups/teams) and it definitely takes to long."

jrgray93 · August 2014

It's simple. When there is any sort of variance between builds, there will always be a best way to do it. Currently, that is putting your money on magicka. Yes, you're free to mix it up if that floats your boat, but I'll stick to what you would probably call a magicka build.

I have all of my attributes in HP (I love PVP) and all of my enchants for magicka. With food, both are soft capped. I have nothing in stamina. I'm VR1. I have no trouble excelling as a healer in PVE and I absolutely annihilate most players 1v1 in PVP.

Cathexis · August 2014

The problem with a split build is that you are flip dependant, which means you are vulnerable to being overwhelmed by CC and lag.

khele23eb17_ESO · August 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

1. Dark Conversion.
2. Immovable.
3. Silver Shards.

There, I am a 4/1 ratio character. I am almost always using at least one Stamina ability.

This problem is also part of why people don't group. When you group with someone who has a trash build its uncomfortable. Half the time they scream and go bonkers if you try to help them make their character better. The other half they just say "Okay" and continue getting the party wiped.

OP:

These people feel a need to create a Wall of Separation so they can create a False Dichotomy of "Magicka/Stamina" Build to argue for constant nerfing.

So you dont think theres a difference in output when you compare builds using stamina skills for dmg and magicka skills for utility to builds using magicka for dmg and stamina for utility?

Solanum · August 2014

Two things I'd like to state:

First,
It's easy to make a working and near optimal build without placing a single stamina ability on your bar.
It's near impossible to make a working build without placing a single magicka ability on your bar.

Secondly,
the original post seems to defend the current system, I disapprove.
Even without taking into consideration the strong favoritism towards magicka, I still believe players should have the ability to make viable builds without having to play caster hybrids.

If I want to play an archtypical fullplate cladded warrior, wielding a two handed sword, I should be able to do so, without suffering massive disadvantages for my preference.

I don't see why this can't be made possible, while the archtypical mage/wizard is possible with every class out there.

MrMT · August 2014

It's simple: the meaty physical type skills, which a lot of people enjoy, require stamina. ie, if you want to whack people every which way with a zwei-hander, you are required to use stamina, putting you at a disadvantage. By contrast, if you want to hurl a fireball, you get to use magika, putting you at an advantage.

That's it. That's pretty much the nub of this story.

To me, the solution would be so simple:

Make every spell and every weapon use the same resource - call it "power". Leave stamina for running, dodging, sneaking, breaking free and leaping. And health is, well, health.

We would then have a simple trade off between power (damage/skill effectiveness), agility (damage avoidance/counter skill), and health (absorption).

On top of that we would have the same three grades of armor, but ordered in the good old fashioned way. Heavier armor = more protection (against magic or melee attacks), but less agility. And ranged skills would do less damage than close up skills.

Tada.

Why's that so hard?

Quaesivi · August 2014

First of all, most people who divides these builds, are sadly, like me, the usual warrior types, or the TES gamers that actually wants to play as they want.

So let me try to explain, as much as I can.

1-) Full Magicka Build - Softcapping HP/Magicka - 5 skills all Magicka -> Overwhelming

2-) Hybrid - Decent amount of HP/Magicka/Stamina - 5 skills mix of Magicka & Stamina -> Still can look good

3-) Full Stamina build - Softcapping HP/Stamina - 5 skills yet again mix, because all Stamina is simply not doable -> Worthless, I'd say garbage but at least they can be burnt to gather energy.

If you are still unaware of the problem, let me put it this way,

Block/CC-Break/Roll costs are ridiculously huge, 300 & more per use alone, which equals to 1 stamina skill.

Difference between a Full Stamina Build, as in all points/enchants into stamina/hp softcap build and a Full Magicka Build, as in all points/enchants into magicka/hp softcap build, is at best 2 more (usually not so most likely 1 more) Block or Roll, not even mentioning CC-Break.

Medium Armor, with cost reduction is now viable somewhat, god forbid if you are wearing Heavy Armor though.

Damage/Cost -> Gaining Magicka is much easier compared to Stamina, therefore it ends up with higher damage AND sustain.

Problem is, you can do a full blown Magicka Build, without spending a single point in Stamina in any form, using a single Stamina skill, and be a beast, you can't however, do that for Stamina.

And as you said, they definitely did not design the resource system to go full Stamina, they made it clear, it is either go Magicka or... simply don't play.

That is the problem we have here, I hope it made some sense to any of you.

Krinaman · August 2014

As a DW / heavy armor user I agree that you need to balance your bar. Which means you need stamina plus magicka. The problem is all the abilities scale off of stamina or magicka. So this means the guy who goes pure magicka can build a huge magicka pool and do crazy damage while the support spells also hit for big numbers. Meanwhile the balance build hits for much less on both attack and support spells. Couple this with the light armor buffs and you really can't compete.

PaulD · August 2014

I use magic as my main damage dealer, but I carry the fighters guild silver bolts as a stamina pool user/backup. Pick the right abilities, you can kill daedra before they even hit you.

c0rp · August 2014

OP: you are way overthinking it. Its a simple matter of LA/staves being superior to everything else in game. If you are using LA/staves you are magicka. And you are superior in every aspect to someone who is using xyz weapon/non LA.

Thus, you have magicka build and stamina build. Everyone uses stamina and magicka when playing. In a broader sense though..the attribute you devote to the most (magicka or stamina) is what you are.

You could easily change "magicka vs stamina" into "LA/staves vs med/heavy" and it remains the same arguement. Maybe that is more appropriate.

If you are using medium/heavy armor you are not using a staff (based on magicka) as a weapon, which means you are using a weapon based on STAMINA. Unless you are an RP'r or "playing your own way" ofc, lol.

And, this arguement is mostly from a pve perspective. Stamina builds have no problems killing people in cyrodiil. Which makes the process of balancing it for pve even more difficult. You cant just largely buff the damage of stamina abilities, or NBs will be killing people out of stealth in 2 seconds instead of 4.

ThoradinBloodfire · August 2014

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

I think people just want stamina based abilities to not suck so badly like they do now.

I want to be a 2h beast of a dragonknight. But wtf, there is no single target spammable 2h style other than a finisher? Really? Okay I guess I am just forced to use magicka based dps abilities like lava whip....even though I wanted to be a 2h warrior who just used magic for shields/heals/utility

screw me for thinking I could build a class the way I wanted right? It's almost like the game developers told me I could or something....

Krom! I've never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one. Not even you will remember if we were good men, or bad. Why we fought. Why we died. No... All that matters, is that two stood against many. That is what is important. Balro pleases you, Krom. So grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen... then to hell with you!

I want my freaking 2handed barbarian. Non magic using (very little at least) sword beast. It even fits the ESO mold of Al'Kir. You think their sword saints and singers were magic users?! They dispise it.

Anastasia · August 2014

c0rp wrote: »

OP: you are way overthinking it. Its a simple matter of LA/staves being superior to everything else in game. If you are using LA/staves you are magicka. And you are superior in every aspect to someone who is using xyz weapon/non LA.

Thus, you have magicka build and stamina build. Everyone uses stamina and magicka when playing. In a broader sense though..the attribute you devote to the most (magicka or stamina) is what you are.

You could easily change "magicka vs stamina" into "LA/staves vs med/heavy" and it remains the same arguement. Maybe that is more appropriate.

If you are using medium/heavy armor you are not using a staff (based on magicka) as a weapon, which means you are using a weapon based on STAMINA. Unless you are an RP'r or "playing your own way" ofc, lol.

And, this arguement is mostly from a pve perspective. Stamina builds have no problems killing people in cyrodiil. Which makes the process of balancing it for pve even more difficult. You cant just largely buff the damage of stamina abilities, or NBs will be killing people out of stealth in 2 seconds instead of 4.

*Seems to me (*certain of it) ZOS said pre-launch that one of the great, outstanding things about armor in the TESO MMO was that there would be none of that traditionally-done in other games...noticeable or huge difference between the sets in PvE and the sets in PvP. That was touted as a big PLUS>remember?

Why then: " Stamina builds have no problems killing people in cyrodiil."
Indeed. Builds with half or more stam on their ability hotbars have reason for more than a little concern. Melee PvE stam builds (*most of whom do have one or so magicka skills on their hotbars probs.) I know of selectively fewer players who have ONLY a full hotbar of stam abilities. Needs continued work.

PaulD · August 2014

I'm watching this thread with some concern, as it seems to me a number of people are essentially arguing for "I want a very simple system where we can have cookie cutter builds that can't be questioned". That's never been the way to play any ESO game and I see no reason for it to be the way to play this one. Everything in ESO has always been a trade off, there are ways to do things that just aren't always the "most damaging" but may simply be more suitable to one or another player, for many reasons. It's about more than simple damage. There are plenty of games where every player has the same armor, same equipment, same skills, same everything. It really isn't a sin if ESO doesn't require that to be competitive.

jelliedsoup · August 2014

People divide them as they are divided.

Magicka does more damage, lb for lb, and stamina is used for other things. Dodging, running, blocking. Cmon this is not a new thing.