Increasing stamina softcap doesn't help under-performing stamina builds.

Phinix1 · July 2014

It seems one of the things ZOS is planning for patch 1.3.x to help address under-performing Stamina builds, in addition to the crafted set changes, is to raise the softcap for the Stamina resource slightly.

While this might seem like a nice quick fix on paper, in reality it accomplishes basically nothing to correct the situation. At best it might give you one extra block, bash, or roll dodge before you have to chug another potion, although not without consequences to other stats as I mention later.

While having more Stamina WILL be nice, since we have to "double dip" into our primary damage stat for ALL the defensive abilities (something magic users don't have to worry about at all), the REAL problem is the fact that all our class abilities (talking about specifically Nightblade here) that are CLEARLY melee-oriented, are scaled in terms of the damage they do off of how much Magic/Spell Power you have, NOT how much Stamina/Weapon Power you have!

For example take the Veiled Strike ability from the Shadow tree, our bread and butter "sneak up and stab it from stealth" melee rogue ability. It has a 5 meter range (as do both morphs), so no argument it is definitely a MELEE ability. The animation and sound effects are both obvious "stabby" melee effects as well.

It is a core ability of any Dual Wield or 2H melee build, to sneak up out of the shadows and surprise attack your enemy (one of the morphs is even called "Surprise Attack," the other "Concealed Weapon"). Yet the damage scales off of Magic/Spell Power NOT Stamina/Weapon Power as it should.

The same is true across the board. Assassin's Blade and morphs, as well as Teleport Strike and morphs, CLEARLY should scale off Stamina/Weapon Power as well, and yet they do not.

The problem here is that there are only so many stat points to shuffle around. Raising the soft cap on Stamina doesn't really make much difference, since to max your primary skill damage you still need to worry about capping Magic first, while having enough Health not to get 1-shot in trials.

What ends up happening, even after food buffs, is that the extra soft cap room on Stamina is basically wasted as there is no way to reach it without gimping your damage by lowering your Magic below the cap, or making yourself a glass dagger by gimping your Health.

The only REAL solution to the under-performing stamina builds is to re-evaluate which class abilities and morphs should scale off Stamina/Weapon Power and which off Magic/Spell Power.

Just the three Nightblade abilities listed here would make a huge difference if scaled off Stamina/Weapon Power.

Something else this could take into consideration is which weapon type you have equipped. If you have a stamina weapon equipped, have certain class abilities scale off Stamina/Weapon Power. If you have a staff equipped, have them scale off Magic/Spell Power.

david.haypreub18_ESO · July 2014

I agree with your diagnosis of the problem, and I have been saying the same since beta. The solution you propose is also a good one (though there are potentially others).

I think we can all agree that slightly raising softcaps (and slightly lowering the spell damage cap) is NOT going to solve the issue.

I think everyone can also agree that this problem has gone on far too long.

kitsinni · July 2014

Honestly I think you are mixing up a lot of issues in to one big post.

Double dipping for defense is one thing and while it sucks it is separate from the other issues. Many people have suggested a new resource for defense.

The Nightblade melee skills are not specific to stamina builds at all and many magicka based nightblades use them all the time. That also is not a Stamina issue.

Every class skill for all classes work off Magicka this isn't a nightblade or stamina build thing it just is what it is.

The increase to stamina softcap is also to magicka. In fact other than spell damage , spell resist and armor about every softcap went up including weapon damage which should help stamina builds also.

I'm not saying I disagree that stamina builds have issues I just think you are mixing a lot of different issues in together when they are all separate.

david.haypreub18_ESO · July 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Every class skill for all classes work off Magicka this isn't a nightblade or stamina build thing it just is what it is.

But 'what it is' is the problem.

kitsinni · July 2014

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Every class skill for all classes work off Magicka this isn't a nightblade or stamina build thing it just is what it is.

But 'what it is' is the problem.

Personally I think the the damage of these class skills should just scale with level an not any stat. I don't think having them use Magicka as a resource is as big of a deal as scaling with spell power and Magicka for damage.

Vuron · July 2014

Ok... so here's my questions and they are serious questions...

You mention a build using Veiled Strike, Surprise Attack, Assassin's Blade, and Teleport Strike. If these are the skills you are using, than why on earth do you want to use stamina? What is the problem with just dumping points into Magicka with this build? Is it because people have an aversion to a pool named "Magicka" and think, that by using it, they become a "mage" or a "caster"? I have never understood this argument.

I've said it before that I believe this argument would end if ZOS just renamed the pools from Magicka and Stamina to Power and Defense.

I leveled from 1-VR12 using a similar build of Ambush, Surprise Attack, Funnel Health, Impale, and Dark Cloak. This is, absolutely, a "melee" build because I have to stand withing melee range to fight. It is not a mage and it is not a caster build, even though it is 100% magicka based.

david.haypreub18_ESO · July 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Personally I think the the damage of these class skills should just scale with level an not any stat. I don't think having them use Magicka as a resource is as big of a deal as scaling with spell power and Magicka for damage.

That would be one way to address the problem, I agree... so long as the weapon skills were made to yield damage comparable to the class skills.

But then you'd run into the problem that there are far more class skills than weapon skills, so I think magicka-skills would still come out considerably ahead.

Tremulous · July 2014

So I find myself in a weird place. On one hand I love many of the NB class skills. On the other I love using Dual wield and it's flurry (rapid strikes) ability which increase my attack speed.

As most melee night blades do I use veiled strikes (surprise attack) to open with then I use Power drain (Power extraction), haste (incapacitate), Flurry (rapid strikes), heavy attack super fast as they stack weapon speed buffs, then spam assassin's blade (impale) at 30%.

Now I'm at the point where I feel like both resource are fighting for attention and you have to kill one to save the other. While I want to be more of a balance; both aid each other, it sounds like If I do not go towards a magica build I will be forever gimped.

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Jaxom · July 2014

Vuron wrote: »

Ok... so here's my questions and they are serious questions...

You mention a build using Veiled Strike, Surprise Attack, Assassin's Blade, and Teleport Strike. If these are the skills you are using, than why on earth do you want to use stamina? What is the problem with just dumping points into Magicka with this build? Is it because people have an aversion to a pool named "Magicka" and think, that by using it, they become a "mage" or a "caster"? I have never understood this argument.

I've said it before that I believe this argument would end if ZOS just renamed the pools from Magicka and Stamina to Power and Defense.

I leveled from 1-VR12 using a similar build of Ambush, Surprise Attack, Funnel Health, Impale, and Dark Cloak. This is, absolutely, a "melee" build because I have to stand withing melee range to fight. It is not a mage and it is not a caster build, even though it is 100% magicka based.

I think the argument is, why can't we use Veiled Strike, Surprise Attack, Assassin's blade and Teleport Strike on one bar, and use Bow, DW, 2h, ect on our second bar. We can't unless we sacrifice something. If we want our Class skills and Weapon skills to both hit for decent damage, we need to stack Magicka and Stamina, and sacrifice Health. There is going to be a trade off. There is no trade off if you are pure Magicka. This isnt even just a Nightblade thing, I'm sure the other classes would like to mix class abilities with Weapon abilities without gimping something.

I currently use the Veiled Strike set up myself and it works very well. I just wish I could use a weapon as well. If they changed it so our class abilities pull from both Stamina and Magicka, or one or the other depending which is higher, this will give greater flexibility to use both Class Skills and Weapon Skills (Not Destro, Resto) and still be viable.

kitsinni · July 2014

Here would be my fix.

Stop scaling weapon and class skills with anything but level. Combine weapon and spell damage to one stat that just boosts all damage. Combine spell and weapon crit to one stat called crit. Make all melee skills and bow (class and weapon) work off of stamina, make all ranged magic attack and staff other than bow work off of magicka. Add a new stat called endurance for blocking, sprinting, dodging and sneak.

This way you can get both Magicka and Stamina an not worry about gimping damage they are just a resource. With skills not scaling with resources it is much easier to pull weapon attacks in line with class skills.

Crisscross · July 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

The only REAL solution to the under-performing stamina builds is to re-evaluate which class abilities and morphs should scale off Stamina/Weapon Power and which off Magic/Spell Power.

Just the three Nightblade abilities listed here would make a huge difference if scaled off Stamina/Weapon Power.

But what about the other classes? The only other "stabby" looking skill I know of is Searing Strke for DKs. Templars have their spear skill, but it honestly looks and even sounds very "magicky". Your solution of making a few class skills scale off of stamina and weapon power would probably technically work, but not flavor-wise. Everyone will still look like some variation of weird battlemage, casting flamewhips and disco spears all over the place.

The solution simply has to involve the devs tweaking the weapon skills themselves, to make them on par with class skills. I don't see how any fancy song-and-dance with stamina values alone can equalize them.

Kos · July 2014

I think stamina enchants should be higher than now also.

Phinix1 · July 2014

Vuron wrote: »

You mention a build using Veiled Strike, Surprise Attack, Assassin's Blade, and Teleport Strike. If these are the skills you are using, than why on earth do you want to use stamina?

Because I also use Rapid Strikes from Dual Wield (for the attack speed buff and decent damage with good crit rating from medium armor) and do a LOT of light and heavy attacks, which is Stamina based. Also, my other weapon/bar is ALL bow (OK, one Siphoning ability), so also, heavy stamina.

Not to mention, spamming Teleport Strike looks incredibly stupid and is very boring, and Surprise Attack is really only good for the first sneak attack entering combat.

I really think the ultimate solution to this will be:

If you are currently wielding a stamina weapon, make certain class skills scale off stamina. If you are using a magic weapon, make them scale off magic.

Simple.

Stx · July 2014

First of all, in my experience it is very easy to soft cap magicka, health, and stamina at v9, so Im not sure why you are making it seem like making the caps higher would be a bad thing.

Secondly, the entire issue with stamina builds is that they cannot keep up in dps with magicka builds. The main reasons for that is that class skills are generally much better than weapon skills, and class skills scale off of spell power and use magicka for a resource pool. I agree with you about changing that for some class skills.

Lastly, having defensive mechanics tied to stamina is not a weakness, it is a boon. Think about it for a second... if you create a third resource solely for defense, then you BUFF magicka specs even more, because currently, stamina builds are better dodgers/sprinters/blockers. All that needs to happen to balance this issue is buff stamina REGEN cap, not the pool cap(although I feel all 3 stats should have higher caps).

Jaxom · July 2014

Stx wrote: »

First of all, in my experience it is very easy to soft cap magicka, health, and stamina at v9, so Im not sure why you are making it seem like making the caps higher would be a bad thing.

This is going to change come 1.3. The soft caps are at 1800 right now, which you are right, easy to hit all 3 if you do it right. When the caps are raised to 2700, you will not be able to do all 3 anymore. So if you continue to spread yourself thin, you will be doing less damage than a person with softcap on either Stamina or Magicka.

WebBull · July 2014

It won't until some class skills start working off of Stamina instead of Magika.

kitsinni · July 2014

Stx wrote: »

Lastly, having defensive mechanics tied to stamina is not a weakness, it is a boon. Think about it for a second... if you create a third resource solely for defense, then you BUFF magicka specs even more, because currently, stamina builds are better dodgers/sprinters/blockers. All that needs to happen to balance this issue is buff stamina REGEN cap, not the pool cap(although I feel all 3 stats should have higher caps).

I don't think this is true. I have played my NB as a stamina build and a magicka build. To maximize DPS you are using up as much of your resources as you can for DPS alone. As a Magicka user I have 100% of my stamina just for defense and sneak. I find I can dodge/block/sprint far more than I ever could with a stamina build if I wanted to actually be able to also do damage. Even with no buffs, glyphs or attribute points you still have 1100ish Stamina just for defense/sprint/sneak.