PLEASE do somthing about stamina builds

Daethz · July 2014

PLEASE
Bring stamina builds inline with magicka ones, currently using any melee weapon hinders your ability to play and specifically compete.

Literally almost every single player I ever come across uses either light or heavy armor with a destruction staff, about 1/10 people I see use bow, and another 1/10 for shield.
I actually have never seen another melee player in upper vet zones (before craiglorn).
I'm about to hit v10.

Edit: This is just as bad as the old vampires who could 1v40+ in cyrodil.

Edit Again: It has recently come to my attention that Restostaff also has the ability to do insane amounts of damage sometimes even beyond Destruction Staff.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · July 2014

They do not have to buff stamina builds mate.

They need to nerf the destro staff, and all the magicka based abilities bringing them in line with the stamina based damage.

This, from a magicka oriented Templar (with shield), who is better off casting spells than wielding a sword as initially wanted to do. (and still wants to do so)

Hypertionb14_ESO · July 2014

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

They do not have to buff stamina builds mate.

They need to nerf the destro staff, and all the magicka based abilities bringing them in line with the stamina based damage.

This, from a magicka oriented Templar (with shield), who is better off casting spells than wielding a sword as initially wanted to do. (and still wants to do so)

while Power Creep is a concern, its not to the point that they need to do nerfs...

Edhelliell · July 2014

With the new crafted set bonus they buff up melee quite a lot. Now you are able to obtain at least 40% crit as well.

Xnemesis · July 2014

I think these changes should be put in the game to help with stamina builds. Long read but lots of good ideas that would help IMO.

1) I think med armor should have a 2 point passive that gives you stamina, Magicka, and a boost to in combat stamina regen if you successfully dodge or block a heavy attack.

2) Light armor 2 point passive could just give a 50-100% crit on next attack after a successful dodge or block of a heavy attack. Call it retaliate.

3) While heavy armor gets some Health, Stamina, Magicka, and in combat regen boost of health and stamina after a successful dodge or block of a heavy attack.

4) Lower the cost of sprinting, dodging, sneaking, and blocking drastically. CC break can remain the same, but consume magicka

5) Change armor caps based on armor type.
650 on light armor, 1300 for medium armor, and 2000 for heavy

6) Spell resist needs to be changed per armor type.
1500 on light, 750 on medium, and 500 on heavy
(Shield will have a passive that increases this and physical armor to make heavy armor tanks the best choice)

7) Increase the light and heavy damage of all stamina based weapons. Drastically increase melee weapon damage.

8) Fix attack speed armor passives, ability buffs, and weapon traits for all ranged weapons. As it stands right now we should be able to fire arrows and magic quite quickly, however that is just not the case.

9) Make bows fire when you fully charge a heavy attack similar to staves. It is hard for us to judge just how long it takes to get full damage from a heavy attack. Even more so when we have attack speed passive from medium armor, weighted trait, and haste (assuming they fix haste for heavy attacks).

10) Make abilities scale of whichever resource is the higher one. This would allow all abilities to be used with effectiveness regardless of which resource is required to cast it. Solves a ton of issues and opens the door to different builds. (This is probably the change I want to see made the most as well as the armor passives)

Sunrock · July 2014

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

They do not have to buff stamina builds mate.

They need to nerf the destro staff, and all the magicka based abilities bringing them in line with the stamina based damage.

This, from a magicka oriented Templar (with shield), who is better off casting spells than wielding a sword as initially wanted to do. (and still wants to do so)

No that would be a terrible idea too.. Way Sta Vs Mag damage abilities are unbalanced is because stamina is used for allot of other things not only damage abilities. So as long as dodge block spring and so on is stamina dependent it will always be unbalanced.

To balance it a bit might be though to use magica for CC brake instead of stamina. That would be a better idea...

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

The stamina survival abilities not placed on any bar (Dodge roll, CC break, etc) need to either also cost magicka, or be given its own special resource. This will be the biggest step to ending the balance fail between magicka builds and stamina builds and it will be way easier to "Play your way".

Various weapon skills would still need slight love to make them as good as destro staff skills, like Whirlwind VS impulse, but above will help tremendously.

LariahHunding · July 2014

I made to VR12 with 2-handed has my main weapon, BUT I was magica/bloodmage centered NB. Only consistent stamina skill was Silver Tether.
5/2 med/heavy most of the time.

However, to be effective in groups (especially end game), you just about have to go light/staff.

Caveat: Speaking strictly from PvE.

Snit · July 2014

I think the core issue is simpler: Bows and Two-Handers do lousy DPS. Neither has a spammable ability that provides sustained DPS on-par with Force Shock, Impulse or various class-based abilities.

This could be addressed without redesigning the resource and combat systems.

Xnemesis · July 2014

Lets take a unique perspective on how damage and defensive moves should be dealt with

Have all abilities scale damage off of whatever resource is the highest, regardless of what resource is needed to use it.

Second drastically lower the cost of sprinting and sneaking. Reduce the cost of dodging and blocking and have them cost your stamina and magicka regen stat. It would replenish over time in long battles or it will automatically return to your full amount after combat ends.

Problem solved and staying solved. @ZoS pm me for my address so you can know where to send the check.

TheBucket · July 2014

You cannot make abilities scale off anything but stamina without brining servers down for beta testing because it requires a whole different method and class build for the programs running each system. It won't happen because its basically a total revamp of the current combat system.

Stamina is really close to being competitive in PvE and is very close to OP in PvP. They are doing a good job of taking it slow and adding outside buffs like armor pieces and soft caps without changing actual abilities in the weapon trees which are quite powerful atm.

Xnemesis · July 2014

TheBucket wrote: »

You cannot make abilities scale off anything but stamina without brining servers down for beta testing because it requires a whole different method and class build for the programs running each system. It won't happen because its basically a total revamp of the current combat system.

Stamina is really close to being competitive in PvE and is very close to OP in PvP. They are doing a good job of taking it slow and adding outside buffs like armor pieces and soft caps without changing actual abilities in the weapon trees which are quite powerful atm.

That's completely incorrect all they would have to add is a line of code that queries which resource is higher so it knows which on to use. Magicka and stamina have the same soft caps and the abilities scale almost identically. If a person has 1900 Magicka and hits for 500dps with a Magicka ability a person with 1900 stamina with a similar ability would hit for roughly the same. The real difference maker in those equations are the spell power and weapon power.

Plus any change should go through internal testing and the PTS regardless.

If you think this cannot be done then pls tell zos that their plans to do the identical thing I purpose with ultimates will not work either.

Shiv · July 2014

Stamina needs love for sure but,

Strictly speaking from a Old school DAOC standpoint don't give shield users free reign with no cost, Anyone who played Daoc will attest to this fact simply because Shield blocking without any cost is asking for heaps of trouble and a switch from staff users to everyone running shield.
If you can block with a shield and still cast your spells with the right abilities slotted you would be unstoppable. Heavy Tank shield users in Daoc could block almost any inc damage except which this game does'nt have specific style location attacks, an example being a side attack, back attack you get the point. Hell even magic attacks in Daoc were partially blocked by a shield user using the block skill.
So unlimited blocking would cause so much havok over what we have right now it would need a revamp yet again.
Simple fix would be as someone posted above with a more in-depth look at it per sey,

1. If you are wielding a staff your cc breaks cost magicka, If you are wielding a sword,shield,DW it should cost stamina you dont need to add another component to the mix just tweak the exisiting skills to match you main attack style and of course a little bump in melee dps.
2. Or a purge like ability on a " gasp " reuse timer given to everyone with the addition of a fixed permanant skill slot with this ability already locked and loaded in the slot. You could then spend points to reduce the reuse timer on this ability say up to a tier 3 ability with 2 mins being the start point down to a 3 point cost of 30 secs in addition of course to bumping melee dps.

Thanks for reading, just my thoughts....

Gehennas · July 2014

Edhelliell wrote: »

With the new crafted set bonus they buff up melee quite a lot. Now you are able to obtain at least 40% crit as well.

Actually, they nerfed stamina builds in 1.3.

I have compared my main character's damage with pts character.

Main Character:
V9 Nord Templar. Armor: Medium, 4 "Training" green items and 3 world-drop blue items, no sets. Weapon: V7 purple sword & V6 purple sword. Lower-level jewelry. 1900+ Stamina, 181 Weapon Damage.

PTS Character:
V12 Redguard Templar. Armor: Medium, Legendary "Quick Serpent" Trial set. Weapon: V12 Legendary swords (from another Trial set). Legendary Jewelry. 2200+ Stamina, 198 Weapon Damage.

Flying Blade Damage: 434 on Main Character, 430 on PTS Character.
Steel Tornado Damage: 163 on Main Character, 162 on PTS Character.

I will create a new topic today with more detailed info. Hoped that this patch will make stamina builds just a little useful, but developers decided that nerf is neccessary.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO · July 2014

Gehennas wrote: »

Edhelliell wrote: »

With the new crafted set bonus they buff up melee quite a lot. Now you are able to obtain at least 40% crit as well.

Actually, they nerfed stamina builds in 1.3.

I have compared my main character's damage with pts character.

Main Character:
V9 Nord Templar. Armor: Medium, 4 "Training" green items and 3 world-drop blue items, no sets. Weapon: V7 purple sword & V6 purple sword. Lower-level jewelry. 1900+ Stamina, 181 Weapon Damage.

PTS Character:
V12 Redguard Templar. Armor: Medium, Legendary "Quick Serpent" Trial set. Weapon: V12 Legendary swords (from another Trial set). Legendary Jewelry. 2200+ Stamina, 198 Weapon Damage.

Flying Blade Damage: 434 on Main Character, 430 on PTS Character.
Steel Tornado Damage: 163 on Main Character, 162 on PTS Character.

I will create a new topic today with more detailed info. Hoped that this patch will make stamina builds just a little useful, but developers decided that nerf is neccessary.

Great.... Good work Zenimax.

Daethz · July 2014

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

They do not have to buff stamina builds mate.

They need to nerf the destro staff, and all the magicka based abilities bringing them in line with the stamina based damage.

This, from a magicka oriented Templar (with shield), who is better off casting spells than wielding a sword as initially wanted to do. (and still wants to do so)

The community is outraged every time you tell ZOS to Nerf something.
Which is why Buffing everything excluding the problem is a better way to round up community support.
Politics...

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs · July 2014

Bow/medium armor is better than sorc spells or destro staff, but duel wield, 1h sword,2h isn't very good

Soarin' · July 2014

The situation is so dire for stamina builds I just stopped playing, forgot to un-sub. Will go fix that now and be back once they rebalance this current build system, it really does suck pretty bad and I am surprised their lead gameplay designer could not see this as an issue.

Hadria · July 2014

What if they made it so you could have an option of switching dodge, sprint, and block to magica.

Soarin' · July 2014

That doesn't matter, the problem is 100% of the class skills are magika based, if you don't buff magika your build will be horribly gimped. It's an error in the core gameplay design, this late in the project it will be expensive to fix so I really don't see them doing anything about it.

phaneub17_ESO · July 2014

No destro/resto staff here, 1h and shield templar on both swaps, but all out magicka build. Stamina in itself is quite problematic as you still need some magicka for heals, shield spells, and buffs; you then have the problem with stamina being consumed by block, dodge, and sprinting; and finally stamina abilities in general are somewhat limiting in creativity of what they can and can't do whereas magicka has a wider range of abilities and effects because of lore mechanics. It's not a double edge sword, more like being trapped in an iron maiden torture box.

Daethz · July 2014

The reasoning behind why stamina is weaker dosent even matter at this point.
Why? Because it is SO MUCH WEAKER than magicka builds.

Magicka/Staffs are so much better there IS no comparison between the two, and no, from what I have seen "Stamina Builds" are NOT close to being "Competitive" in pvp or pve. Infact most people will refuse to allow stamina players in because they can't hold their own, they might be great players but because of their weapon choice they are going to have to be carried.

Daethz · July 2014

FYI the Stamina Skirmisher (Medium) set has a terrible set bonus, after roll dodging your damage is increased for 2 seconds.
2 Seconds?
It takes longer than 2 seconds to get back to the enemy after rolling away from said enemy making said bonus completely useless and any time where you would actually benefit from it insanely rare.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

Daethz wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

They do not have to buff stamina builds mate.

They need to nerf the destro staff, and all the magicka based abilities bringing them in line with the stamina based damage.

This, from a magicka oriented Templar (with shield), who is better off casting spells than wielding a sword as initially wanted to do. (and still wants to do so)

The community is outraged every time you tell ZOS to Nerf something.
Which is why Buffing everything excluding the problem is a better way to round up community support.
Politics...

Destro staff still needs to be nerfed regardless of what they do for stamina builds. A very basic nerf, making impulse blockable. The alternative of making more skills unblockable will only create more unbalanced "go-to" skills.

Soarin' wrote: »

That doesn't matter, the problem is 100% of the class skills are magika based, if you don't buff magika your build will be horribly gimped. It's an error in the core gameplay design, this late in the project it will be expensive to fix so I really don't see them doing anything about it.

And it really doesn't matter how late it is. If its doesn't work so bad, and 'tiny fixes' wont do the trick, overhaul on the system needed. Squeenix did what needed to be done with FFXIV (they went overboard tho).

Along with changing what ultimates scale to, they need to redo class skill costs and/or scaling. Possibly make them all like ultimates, where they get their power from whichever is higher, and possibly cost whichever is higher as well. No matter what a stamina build attempts to do, they have to use class skills, and more class skills than stamina skills from weapon or armor lines.

They also need to move the basic survival abilities to a new resource bar. As long as weapon skills are costing the same resource as block/dodge/etc stamina builds will continue to be less than magicka builds.

MeowGinger · July 2014

Sunrock wrote: »

No that would be a terrible idea too.. Way Sta Vs Mag damage abilities are unbalanced is because stamina is used for allot of other things not only damage abilities. So as long as dodge block spring and so on is stamina dependent it will always be unbalanced.

This... stamina is just too precious to waste on damage/CCs/abilities in general. Magicka has no use whatsoever except for abilities, while stamina is needed for sprint, CC break, roll dodge, interrupt, and block. Only block (and interrupt?) seem to have a fixed cost -- CC break and roll dodge seem to cost a percentage of your maximum, something like a third of your max stamina.

Given that, it only makes sense to save stamina for those (potentially lifesaving) mechanics while using the otherwise-useless magicka for abilities. There are a few very good stamina abilities, but with the high costs of break free and everything else, stamina builds aren't viable because after the first couple of breaks or dodges you'll be finding yourself CCd a lot, unable to interrupt, and low on damage due to lack of resources.

I'm not sure how they can fix this other than giving CC break, etc. fixed costs, massively decreased costs, or a separate bar. If they switch one of these mechanics to use up magicka, there will be an uproar, because losing a third of your maximum possible resource for a single action in a battle is just plain ridiculous.

I can't speak for damage, since I switched from DW to staff when I realized exactly how important stamina was. So stamina builds may need to be buffed in that respect. It would be nice to see some ultimates that scale entirely off stamina/weapon damage (ex. Flawless Dawnbreaker scales off stamina but also off spell damage, for some reason), while all the class ultimates scale off magicka (if I'm not mistaken) and there are no ultimates for weapon skill lines. Even though I'm no longer a stamina/mixed user, these are things I'd like to see.

Springt-Über-Zwerge · July 2014

Yea i always wondered why there are no weapon ultimades. This would be a big step towards equality between magicka and stamina builds.
Then we could use a 4th ressource for dodge rolls, cc break and block. Or maybe you can select on what ressource these rely on. What would be so hard about it? I mean we already have the horse stamina resource. We could use something like this.
At the moment unstopable is the only thing i use stamina for because it costs less than a cc break or blocking.

Laura · July 2014

but they made the leveling experience easier instead of bringing weapon and class abilities up to the strongest ones, that should have fixed everything.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

Edhelliell wrote: »

With the new crafted set bonus they buff up melee quite a lot. Now you are able to obtain at least 40% crit as well.

Crit isn't the make or break for any build.

Kego · July 2014

And only for PvE, cause in PvP you will never Crit against VR12 with stacked impen.

Daethz · July 2014

Laura wrote: »

but they made the leveling experience easier instead of bringing weapon and class abilities up to the strongest ones, that should have fixed everything.

Personally I believe the issue was caused by staffs in the first place, I have a sneaking suspicion the leveling experience was created around the strength of staffs, as prenerf there was absolutely no way any dual wielder was going to solo storm atronacrhes.

In fact I still cant solo the one in the v10 zone on my DW DK.

Most mobs dident need to be nerfed, a few did, a very small few.
Like Ice, Storm Atronarches, Gargoyles and Harvestors.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · July 2014

Kego wrote: »

And only for PvE, cause in PvP you will never Crit against VR12 with stacked impen.

I use only Aedric Spear abilities on PvP. My weapon crit is 14% (racial bonus most of it) and so rarely crits. (only once against a level 43 player). (Aedric Spear are Weapon Crit based)

However, I have crack up the spell power and magicka to such levels, that I do not rely on the "unreliable" critical chance. I do enough constant damage, that could justify my mana sink abilities.

Same setup on my DK and NB and they are even better than my Templar. No crits but more power and pool is the way for a good balanced damage that cannot be stopped by the Impenetrable trait stones.