This is how block should function

Xnemesis · June 2014

I have seen so much hate on the blocking system in ESO on the forums lately. So I sat and thought about some real changes that would provide some balance and risk/reward to our sword and board community without nerfing them into the ground.

first, is have a debuff over time, call it fatigue, that reduces the amount mitigated by 10% every two seconds with a cap at 45%. So say you have 75% mitigation when blocking, after 2 seconds it would become 65% then 2 more seconds 55% and then 45% at 6 seconds of blocking. This would prevent players from holding block while attacking and making it function as a reactionary tool like it should. Note, this debuff would last for 2 seconds after block is released.

Second, block should function with a 270 degree front sector. Anything in the 90 degree sector behind you would still have a certain percent mitigated but not the full amount, as if you were hit from the front 270 degree sector. Also any CC applied from the rear 90 degree sector would not be blocked. Not sure on what a fair percentage of mitigation would be for attacks from the rear while blocking, but I am sure if put on the test server the community could come up with something. Maybe even offer a heavy armor perk that increases that rear 90 Degree mitigation.

Third, make blocking while moving cost stamina cause well shields ain't light. It would function similar to sneaking, but at a reduced rate. Also reduce the cost of stamina exerted after a successful block to counter the ticking down of stamina while blocking and moving.

Forth, offer a small mitigation buff after a successful block that way tanks will have the ability to weave in light and heavy attacks it could even be a 2 second or 3 second buff. This buff would cancel when the shield is raised again as to prevent stacking the buff on top of regular shield mitigation.

I would also like to add that a magical shield should not abide by the front 270 degree and rear 90 degree sector rules due to the fact they are just a buff and cannot be sustained throughout the whole fight.

Any other ideas are welcome as well as feedback. The more we can agree on a solution the better chance of getting it fixed. Block isn't broken it just needs to be made situational while offering risk and reward.

If you don't have anything nice to say please just don't reply because I really tried to think of ways to make block function as a tool and not just a button you hold down.

Postumus · June 2014

I would also suggest adding mitigation rates for different weapons. Right now, all weapons block the same, except that 1H/Shield has a passive which increases block mitigation.

It seems pretty intuitive that a wooden staff or a bow is just going to block less effectively than a steel reinforced shield, while other weapons would fall somewhere along the spectrum. Something like Staff = Bow < Dual Wield < 2H < 1H/Shield, with block mitigation increasing from left to right.

If this was implemented, the 1H/Shield passive could be used for something else, like the rear 90 degree mitigation you referred to.

Wolfahm · June 2014

When using skills blocking should be dropped... currently if you press and hold block, you are forever blocking well using abilities, even with the animation hidden from the ability used. This change alone would fix alot of problems in an easy way.

This is the biggest problem I have with this games combat system its a really bad skill-less mechanic... It's also alot of the cause for the hate on some classes becuase some builds and classes gain A LOT more from this function then others...

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

Wolfahm wrote: »

When using skills blocking should be dropped... currently if you press and hold block, you are forever blocking well using abilities, even with the animation hidden from the ability used. This change alone would fix alot of problems in an easy way.

This is the biggest problem I have with this games combat system its a really bad skill-less mechanic... It's also alot of the cause for the hate on some classes becuase some builds and classes gain A LOT more from this function then others...

You can block "forever" doing this....till your stamina runs out. Its technically meant so you CAN block when you need to so your not constantly screwed cause your constantly doing something else.

Muletide · June 2014

I like the idea of an armor or dodge buff for scoring successful blocks in a row and agree with the 270 degree arc, but I have to disagree with the Stamina use on shield-up movement. As a melee user/tank, there are already a lot of factors drawing from the Stamina pool during battle.

The debuff would be good for limiting PvP perma-blocking, but not for PvE. Sometimes when tanking that initial onslaught of 4+ trash mobs I have to have my shield up for more than 2 seconds blocking various uppercuts and such. The tank should not be penalized for doing his job protecting the group.

Being that there is no world PvP, just a zone, I wish they'd create 2 separate mechanics in these cases.

Xnemesis · June 2014

Muletide wrote: »

I like the idea of an armor or dodge buff for scoring successful blocks in a row and agree with the 270 degree arc, but I have to disagree with the Stamina use on shield-up movement. As a melee user/tank, there are already a lot of factors drawing from the Stamina pool during battle.

The debuff would be good for limiting PvP perma-blocking, but not for PvE. Sometimes when tanking that initial onslaught of 4+ trash mobs I have to have my shield up for more than 2 seconds blocking various uppercuts and such. The tank should not be penalized for doing his job protecting the group.

Being that there is no world PvP, just a zone, I wish they'd create 2 separate mechanics in these cases.

yeah maybe have the fatigue debuff only affect mitigation on incoming damage from enemy players? And TBH a 30% loss to a players mitigation isn't an extreme amount considering the game has plenty of other tools for tanks to use to mitigate damage besides their shield.

I don't think making shield users use stam to move while blocking is to horrible especially when I want to reduce the amount of stamina you exert when actually blocking damage. Plus if you need to move drop your shield and move you will have a mitigation buff remember for about 2-3 seconds.

just a heads up to @postumus that would require a ton of work to accomplish and realistically probably wont happen.

@wolfahm that is the point of my proposed changes... It would make block a tool, not a button you just hold down till the enemy is dead. The changes I proposed introduce penalties for extended use, and moving, while providing some reward for successful blocks via a small 2-3 sec mitigation buff and reduced stamina exertion when you block a blow.

Postumus · June 2014

@Xnemesis, naw, easy peasy, I could program the system in an afternoon. If the devs didn't want to do any real additional programming, all they would have to do is treat it like a 1-piece set bonus to blocking damage mitigation. That's obviously the lazy man's choice, but implementing a more solid version really wouldn't be that hard of a task - one extra field in the code object for each weapon type for block mitigation, determined by the weapon class, and some small changes to the blocking code that determines mitigation.

Somewhere in the code, there is either a Block function, or an equivalent piece of code in another function, which is called every time a character who is holding down the block key is hit. Somewhere in the Block function, there is an equation for determining how much damage is absorbed by that particular block. It has a base value that is currently common to all weapons, and then it factors in class/armor/weapon passives, and any enchantment or other effects.

So, just delete the value for base mitigation, and add in a pointer to the mitigation value for the weapon being held by the character who is performing the current block. The code that factors in item enchantments to the block equation is doing the exact same thing.

Skylandra · July 2014

While I like the Idea that block should not be 360 degree, I still feel that changing it too much would damage an already fragile roll in the game. Currently only the "perma block" builds are standing between light armour/staff builds and even then a good player will know how to beat them. There are many AoE spells that could be used to counter block - block also comes with some major mobility issues and generally has slow dps.

DPS' style players look at numbers. the ability that does the most damage therefore it is best, however that is only true against other DPS players or burst against healers. In a fight of attrition ( what a Tank/block build excels at) a DPS needs to realise its time to adapt. many play to the tanks advantage and waste all their resources against his block... then the tank is left with easy pickings. Some play Smart... and then the tank must adapt.

My sorc does not even have crystal shards/morph's on either bar most of the time and I dont spam mages Fury/morphs as a form of DPS to kill A Tank. Liquid lightning and Velosious Curse can be far more useful against a tank or a group or in a doorway and Yet I see so few using it ( curse more but still not so much). You can even put it on keep walls and push people away from the edge. Because of the Skills I learned while tanking on my main I can Dodge roll incoming charges 75% of the time - then a bolt and the tank has to chose - waste more stamina on a charge that may miss - or slowly approach me through AoE/heavy resto attack that goes through his block. Knowing I will use mobility to beat him over time.

The current block mechanic just takes patience to beat. I have been beaten by a bow wielding knightblade.. lowest DPS in the game at the time. but he played smart. Dodged my charges kept his distance and wore me down with poisen arrow, sapping and consistent light attacks.

What needs to be sorted is armour. If heavy Armour offered decent protection
compared to light then Hiding behind a shield might not seem so attractive. It would also bring some life back into Stamina Builds as people would not feel the need to use Stamina as defence so much

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

I think it should just reduce your stamina regen to 0 while you hold block.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO · July 2014

In my opinion two things are crucial for blocking mechanics. Block should mittigate just 180 degrees . U should not be able to shoot while blocking with any offensive spells coz it is making huge difference and stamina abilities are not designed to be shooted through block and that is giving edge to the magic aoe specially coz blocking is fueled with stamina. So or all abilities and spells can be shooted while blocking or none.

Sai87RU · July 2014

tino.antoninieb17_ESO wrote: »

Block should mittigate just 180 degrees .

100% agree

tino.antoninieb17_ESO wrote: »

U should not be able to shoot while blocking

Or get the debuff that reduces your damage is proportional block. 75% block damage - 75% reduction in damage output. + Allow the use of a light attack in the block.

Xnemesis · July 2014

Sai87RU wrote: »

tino.antoninieb17_ESO wrote: »

Block should mittigate just 180 degrees .

100% agree

tino.antoninieb17_ESO wrote: »

U should not be able to shoot while blocking

Or get the debuff that reduces your damage is proportional block. 75% block damage - 75% reduction in damage output. + Allow the use of a light attack in the block.

I would be fine with the 180 degrees I only mentioned the 270 degrees because I would like to slowly make changes versus drastically making a change.

As for the other response a damage debuff would be a nice addition while blocking, it can even tie nicely into the fatigue debuff. I would ratchet it down a bit start with maybe 20% while blocking and then adjustments can be made up and down as needed.

Also you can light attack its called bash damage.

Sai87RU · July 2014

Xnemesis wrote: »

Also you can light attack its called bash damage.

Bash - consumes stamina, so is the ability, and not light attack + it does not work 3% resource recovery from Siphoning Strikes. I mean it was light attack with a raised shield, not bash, not interrupt, namely light attack. And this An opportunity should be seized only shield because blocking with a weapon is not a block, parry it.

P.S. Percentage of cutting outgoing damage in the block shall be proportional to the percentage of the blocked damage. IMHO & etc ....

Xnemesis · July 2014

I don't want to nerf blocking into the ground it just needs tweaked and allowing a person to use light attacks would open up the ability to regain resources while blocking which would be very bad so bashing is about all you are going to get.

Morvul · July 2014

personally, I would prefer a much easier "fix" for blocking:
be unable to execute any skill (exept the bash) while blocking...

In my opinion, the "problem" is not that people can perma-block, the problem is that people can perma-block while running their normal skill-rotation (minus the light-attack)

Iam_Epiphany · July 2014

Completely agree with this post, as an alternative (if ZOS don't want to go with reducing the angle on block) I'd like to see all classes (or a non-class specific ability) having an attack which can set blockers off balance, which could be followed up with a heavy attack to knock them to the ground through their block. This would not grant CC immunity but would not work through CC immunity in an ideal world.

This way sword+board users can't complain as much as you have to consciously slot an ability to deal with their turtling, and blocking would still be useful to them to dodge an actual skill as you cant cast 2 skills at once.

This ability is already being introduced for Templars, but it needs to be available for everyone.

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO · July 2014

You should be able to deflect AoE effects by using a shield. A shieldwall seems a good defense against zergballs then. You can rework Defensive Posture and make one of its morps deflecting AoEs for a time.

Xnemesis · July 2014

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »

You should be able to deflect AoE effects by using a shield. A shieldwall seems a good defense against zergballs then. You can rework Defensive Posture and make one of its morps deflecting AoEs for a time.

They already have armor sets that reduce player Aoes by a good amount so reducing it even more seems like a tough decision to make. Maybe if they remove the one hand shield melee damage increase into an aoe block morph id be ok with it. Maybe a reduction to damage similar to siphoning strikes while blocking is in order too

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO · July 2014

There is actually one set to reduce player made AoE, its the Bastion of the Heartland hvy armor pvp set. But almost nobody is taking it, because missing Impenetrable traits, terrible other set bonus stats and most of all: its HEAVY armor..with almost no use in pvp..no useful reg bonus, no dmg boost, nothing.

The idea for my suggestion is to counter AoE spamming zergballs with something else that not everybody has in his skill line per se.

If you switch out the melee dmg passive, nobody would even consider this line anymore. 1H/S isn't that strong that it need to be nerfed further.

Xnemesis · July 2014

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »

There is actually one set to reduce player made AoE, its the Bastion of the Heartland hvy armor pvp set. But almost nobody is taking it, because missing Impenetrable traits, terrible other set bonus stats and most of all: its HEAVY armor..with almost no use in pvp..no useful reg bonus, no dmg boost, nothing.

The idea for my suggestion is to counter AoE spamming zergballs with something else that not everybody has in his skill line per se.

If you switch out the melee dmg passive, nobody would even consider this line anymore. 1H/S isn't that strong that it need to be nerfed further.

What are you talking about the one hand shield line blocks tons of damage with pull passives. Not only that most players just spam insta cast abilities behind their shield. If anything people would love some AoE mitigation at the loss of melee damage increase

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO · July 2014

No idea what your pull passives are, but tons of damage is excaggerated. Defense Posture reflects ONE spell and cost quite some stamina plus casting time. Normal block? Yeah sure..because you get so many melee damage when confronting a zergball.
And blocking plus casting? I know, it works sometimes, sometimes it doesnt. Still no argue for keeping shieldline just because you can cast.

We are back then to pure magicka builds for damage and stamina for tools and defense..like we have been from the beginning.

And zergballs still win the day.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »

You should be able to deflect AoE effects by using a shield. A shieldwall seems a good defense against zergballs then. You can rework Defensive Posture and make one of its morps deflecting AoEs for a time.

Those Aoe should be blockable period, not by way of some special trait or skill. I cant fathom what in their mind has let them leave impulse and other unblockable aoe unblockable for as long as they have. Its why people are using it over all else. Don't need to aim, cant block it, no cast time, low enough magicka cost for spamability especially while in light armor. No brainer.

JLB · July 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Those Aoe should be blockable period, not by way of some special trait or skill. I cant fathom what in their mind has let them leave impulse and other unblockable aoe unblockable for as long as they have. Its why people are using it over all else. Don't need to aim, cant block it, no cast time, low enough magicka cost for spamability especially while in light armor. No brainer.

100% agreed. Making AoE blockable seems the way to go. One thing is synchronized group gameplay, which is great. A whole different story is those lame PulsarBatsZergBalls that are ruining PvP for many of us. ESO should be better than that.